Age and programming

Evil Phil

So I'm pushing on 42 now and after a 5 year stint in management and back coding full-time. However, I'm wondering how sustainable this is moving forward.

Management generally pays better, and I do enjoy the work, but I miss coding and spending the day just solving problems on screen without the phone going every ten minutes. But there is ageism in programming so how old is too old?

ThrowinShapes

No-one is ever too old to do what makes them happy. You've got so many more years of code in you, so why not go for it?
It's important to realise the wealth of knowledge you hold as well, and if you're able to explore that through coding then that's an incredible thing to realise not only for yourself, but to give to others.

Every day is a new day when you're doing something you enjoy.

dazberry

I don't think there's ageism as such (beyond hipster startups etc.), just different factors at work as you get older, so I guess it more likely depends on your own priorities and how you see yourself staying in the market as time goes on.

For instance if family life is more important/demanding now than it was say in your 20s and 30s, you may not have the time to spend working on projects or studying newer technologies and methodologies, or you'll find that your (now) far more precious spare time is given over a lot more to those things. It seems these days developers are only passionate about their jobs if they have a github account and a programming blog, and spend all their spare time coding.

The other-side of the coin is that sometimes you feel like you've put in your time over the years, yet the changing nature of the job means that you still go through the churn of new technologies or new methodologies again and again.

I guess if you're prepared for this change, not necessarily leading edge, but just keeping up with things it's sustainable. Otherwise find a niche and hope to get a good run out if it.

D.

The Corinthian

ThrowinShapes wrote: »

No-one is ever too old to do what makes them happy.

No one's denying this. What's being asked is whether one is ever too old to make a living from what makes them happy.

In programming agism is alive and well. You don't have the same laws that make it illegal to specify certain things in a job ad where I live and seeing adverts for programming jobs that specifically look for people under 30 or 35 are not uncommon. Point is that in your twenties, you're going to be more willing to do crazy hours, your technical knowledge may lack experience but will be more than sufficient for the task (especially if supervised) and above all you'll be a lot cheaper. And companies go for that - it's a no brainer.

Simply being a programmer is simply not an option once you're over 35. That doesn't mean you need to go into management, but you will still need to bring something more to the table, be it as an architect, product or project manager, specific specialization, or, where all else fails, legacy knowledge.

After all, you're in competition with someone maybe twenty years your junior who can do the same job as you - maybe not quite as well, but well enough and for half the price. Or are you willing, at 42, with higher expectations and potentially mouths to feed, to do the same job for a 22-year old's salary?

So evolve or die. Like it or not, this is the nature of our profession.

As a caveat, contracting or consultancy is probably the exception to the above. Because it is a fixed job for a fixed rate, all that anyone cares about is that you tick the boxes - 25 or 45 makes no difference.

CreepingDeath

Evil Phil wrote: »

So I'm pushing on 42 now and after a 5 year stint in management and back coding full-time. However, I'm wondering how sustainable this is moving forward.

I'm 42 too and love coding too much to move into architecture/management.
But it's tough to keep up with the new technologies in your spare time if you've a family, and the younger developers who job hop tend to have a more diverse set of skills.

There was a funny article recently about software development teams and if they used the same approach in civil engineering.
It went something like "you have to build a 3-lane high capacity road bridge" but Fred on your team only knows how to build it with wood.

So you have to make a conscious effort to keep your skills up to date.

Skrynesaver

CreepingDeath wrote: »

There was a funny article recently about software development teams and if they used the same approach in civil engineering.
It went something like "you have to build a 3-lane high capacity road bridge" but Fred on your team only knows how to build it with wood.

So you have to make a conscious effort to keep your skills up to date.

i believe you mean this article.. If you have any warm beverages on the go, finish them before following the link.

Evil Phil

The Corinthian wrote: »

As a caveat, contracting or consultancy is probably the exception to the above. Because it is a fixed job for a fixed rate, all that anyone cares about is that you tick the boxes - 25 or 45 makes no difference.

That's kind of the conclusion I'm coming to, some flavour of self-employment seems to be the way forward.

moycullen14

Evil Phil wrote: »

So I'm pushing on 42 now and after a 5 year stint in management and back coding full-time. However, I'm wondering how sustainable this is moving forward.

Management generally pays better, and I do enjoy the work, but I miss coding and spending the day just solving problems on screen without the phone going every ten minutes. But there is ageism in programming so how old is too old?

I'm a good 10 years older than you and still hacking away. I contract and haven't yet found there to be a problem getting work.

A few points (A lot of generalizations here):

There is ageism, no doubt. A good friend in his 50's in the UK is finding it very difficult to get iPhone contracts at the moment. He's convinced that his face doesn't fit in more, shall we say, hipster environments.

In my experience., both the management and technical routes have risks. Techies are more wedded to the craft and more mobile. A lot of managers get tied to specific companies and the only transferrable skills they have are the soft ones.

Technology change is the major issue. The last 30 years has seen mainframe (just), client-server, desktop, the internet and mobile technology shifts. Major, major changes that occur every 5-10 years. Received wisdom is that you can cope with 2, maybe 3, technology shifts in your career. The next one kills you and you remain rooted with a particular technology. You can't be ar*ed learning the next new, shiny thing. If you want to stay programming/developing, you have to be happy to keep up with technology changes. No reason why you can't do it.

As an industry I'm not sure that we value what experience brings. 30 years C programming isn't perceived to be worth much more than, say, 5 years experience. However, if you have been involved in IT for a long time, you should have a much broader perspective on the totality of software development - from sand to screen as it were - and this must be worth something. Depth of knowledge is something that's missing from younger developers.

I think I would be a lot more confident looking for work as a programmer in my 50's than as a project manager.

bpmurray

I'm about to hit 60 and I've been programming for all of my working life (with a brief bit of management in between). And I have no intention of stopping any time soon. Key to staying on top is to follow the new stuff - being a geek and passionate about what you do makes this easy.

Play with Raspberry Pi/IoT/MQTT, with new ideas in web, e.g. node.js, nodeRed & Angular, try new languages like Go, try the new NoSQL databases such as MongoDB. All of these are free so the barrier to starting is very low.

syklops

Evil Phil wrote: »

So I'm pushing on 42 now and after a 5 year stint in management and back coding full-time. However, I'm wondering how sustainable this is moving forward.

Management generally pays better, and I do enjoy the work, but I miss coding and spending the day just solving problems on screen without the phone going every ten minutes. But there is ageism in programming so how old is too old?

A few years ago I worked at Red Hat and I met a guy at a barbecue. He was nearing retirement age but really keen to join Red hat. He sent me his CV, and it was amazing. He'd been using Linux since kernel 0.91, and he had 20 years experience writing C in the aeronautics industry. I wasnt sure if he was a culture fit, but brought his CV to the talent acquisition team who loved his CV and invited him to an interview. The 20-somethings who interviewed him loved him as well, partly because he knew stuff they didnt know. He's been there 4 years now.

Its all very well saying its a young persons game, but if you are in any way good, talented people dont care about your age or gender or orientation. They appreciate talent and thats all. Theres a girl on my team who is a 21 year old asian girl and shes one of the best pen testers on the team. Honestly she could be 84 and welsh for all anyone cares, she's just really good.

Jim2007

Well speaking as someone who has worked for about a dozen companies in and round the Zurich area over the past 25 years I have to say that this not my experience.

The Corinthian wrote: »

where I live and seeing adverts for programming jobs that specifically look for people under 30 or 35 are not uncommon. Point is that in your twenties, you're going to be more willing to do crazy hours, your technical knowledge may lack experience but will be more than sufficient for the task (especially if supervised) and above all you'll be a lot cheaper. And companies go for that - it's a no brainer.

First of all many of the job advertisements in Zurich carry age range requirement, so this is not limited to IT - is a cost issue. As for crazy hours, in all my time here I have only rarely see programmers working beyond the standard working week unless specifically approved and paid for. The reason being is very simple, Zurich local law states that unless an employer takes steps to actively prevent employees from working OT, they are liable to pay for such hours at a rate of 110% up to 8:00 and 120% there after and on weekends. Every HR depart. lives in fear of the 20something leaving for a round the world trip who will hit them with an overtime bill! And despite what may people think, this rule cannot be avoided by adding a clause to your contract (present the bill and HR will pay it without raising any dust in such cases, so the other employees will not hear about it).

The Corinthian wrote: »

Simply being a programmer is simply not an option once you're over 35. That doesn't mean you need to go into management, but you will still need to bring something more to the table, be it as an architect, product or project manager, specific specialization, or, where all else fails, legacy knowledge.

The typical Swiss employer as opposed to the MNC sees young people as flighty and undependable, as a consequence they will not consider under 35s for many responsible positions within the firm, including programming on mission critical systems - they prefer to have an adult doing it. So in most companies that I have worked for a round 40% of the developers were in their late 40s or well into their 50s.

So while age certainly counts, it is by no means a blocker to obtain a very well paying programming job in Switzerland at least. Myself and most of my colleagues are examples of it.

L.Jenkins

syklops wrote: »

A few years ago I worked at Red Hat and I met a guy at a barbecue. He was nearing retirement age but really keen to join Red hat. He sent me his CV, and it was amazing. He'd been using Linux since kernel 0.91, and he had 20 years experience writing C in the aeronautics industry. I wasn't sure if he was a culture fit, but brought his CV to the talent acquisition team who loved his CV and invited him to an interview. The 20-somethings who interviewed him loved him as well, partly because he knew stuff they didn't know. He's been there 4 years now...

I went looking for this http://www.newrepublic.com/article/117088/silicons-valleys-brutal-ageism to highlight that ageism does exit and something I'm not happy about.

From what you say Syklops, the aging Developer shouldn't be written off as their level of knowledge and experience in IT could be seen as a rare resource that should be passed on to younger and new Developers.

etoughguy

bpmurray wrote: »

I'm about to hit 60 and I've been programming for all of my working life (with a brief bit of management in between). And I have no intention of stopping any time soon. Key to staying on top is to follow the new stuff - being a geek and passionate about what you do makes this easy.

Play with Raspberry Pi/IoT/MQTT, with new ideas in web, e.g. node.js, nodeRed & Angular, try new languages like Go, try the new NoSQL databases such as MongoDB. All of these are free so the barrier to starting is very low.

Great answer

moycullen14

syklops wrote: »

Honestly she could be 84 and welsh for all anyone cares, she's just really good.

Ah, steady on! Some discrimination is perfectly justified!

The Corinthian

Jim2007 wrote: »

First of all many of the job advertisements in Zurich carry age range requirement, so this is not limited to IT - is a cost issue.

Never said it was. I only spoke of Switzerland because they can be open about their ageism, where elsewhere it is more circumspect and hidden; that it, I was demonstrating that it does exist. Other than that I really wasn't talking about Switzerland at all.

Of course there is one bit of serious ageism specific to Switzerland and that is related to reaching 48 years of age. Then company contributions increase substantially for an employee and it can work against you if you're looking to get a job.

Jim2007

The Corinthian wrote: »

Of course there is one bit of serious ageism specific to Switzerland and that is related to reaching 48 years of age. Then company contributions increase substantially for an employee and it can work against you if you're looking to get a job.

The legal maximum is about 9K which on a salary of around 130K is not significant, if employers choose to make higher contributions then that is up to them.

reallyrose

I've placed people into jobs in an age range from 21-58. The closest thing to ageism I've found is a team that were a bit taken aback by an oldish guy turning up (45+) for a fairly junior role. The guy was on his second career and the team were worried that he might not like being the junior person, being given instructions.

It was fine in the end.

none

The Corinthian wrote: »

Never said it was. I only spoke of Switzerland because they can be open about their ageism, where elsewhere it is more circumspect and hidden; that it, I was demonstrating that it does exist. Other than that I really wasn't talking about Switzerland at all.

Of course there is one bit of serious ageism specific to Switzerland and that is related to reaching 48 years of age. Then company contributions increase substantially for an employee and it can work against you if you're looking to get a job.

When I was considering a move to CH, every second recruiter asked questions not allowed in the EU/US. Age/DoB, marital status, kids, etc.

One day, when yet another caller inquired about my age, I said the previous recruiter never came back after learning my age so I would prefer to avoid discussing it at such an early stage. She just laughed and said she only needs to put a tick box in some standard form and it won't affect anything. Needless to say, never heard from her again.

While attending face to face interviews in Zurich, they all explicitly or in some hidden fashion asked about the age. This is capitalism at its best (or worst) in CH without any one to report to or comply with (Hello, old, good EU).

No one ever touched this subject during my job searches in IE.

Evil Phil

I'm tempted to prefix the thread title with Noob, but that would kind of be trolling, wouldn't it? :pac: