Should seeding be abolished?

JamboMac

So for the likes of European qualifying and World Cup qualifying Europe seeds it's teams to keep the large ones safe from meeting and basically guarantee that they make it to these tournaments.

I think really everybody should be given a fair a chance and seeding should be gotten rid of. The likelihood of a group of France Germany Portugal Spain Holland and England is still very unlikely and I still don't see San Marino making the finals.

Nah

Icaras

France Germany Portugal Spain Holland and England have a larger fan base, therefore more tv viewers, therefore more €€€€ for fifa/uefa. its all about the money

Dozen Wicked Words

Icaras wrote: »

France Germany Portugal Spain Holland and England have a larger fan base, therefore more tv viewers, therefore more €€€€ for fifa/uefa. its all about the money

It's all about past performance.

Icaras

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

It's all about past performance.

well that too, so we're agreed money and past performance

bpb101

firstly if your talking about our group we were second seed in that btw

Yes and no

Is there much sense in sending san mario into the finals to be the whipping boys.
I would be more in favor of a more generalized seeding
top 30 teams in pot 1 , 30-60 in pot2 60-90 in pot 3 , 2 teams from each or something along them lines

for the finals , all would be fair in love and war though

blueser

Icaras wrote: »

France Germany Portugal Spain Holland and England have a larger fan base, therefore more tv viewers, therefore more €€€€ for fifa/uefa. its all about the money

Bang on the money there, if you pardon the pun. I can't imagine that UEFA's advertising "partners" would be too impressed if there was any risk of any of the glamour sides not getting there. Screwing up in a qualifying campaign is one thing; to have, however remote the chance, 3 of the big nations grouped together would be a no-no.

JamboMac

But thanks to the likes of England getting a handy group is they will move up the rankings and sadly we can see England really ain't that good a team.

blueser

JamboMac wrote: »

But thanks to the likes of England getting a handy group is they will move up the rankings and sadly we can see England really ain't that good a team.

While in theory you are correct, you're sort of missing the point raised by myself and a few others on here. The mega companies that are in bed with UEFA want the "bigger" nations there, as that means more exposure for their brand. If you were the CEO of, say, MacDonald's, who would you prefer to see playing a match in a stadium with your billboards around the edge of the pitch; England/Germany/Spain/Italy etc or San Marino/Faroe Islands/Cyprus/Gibraltar etc? I'm afraid that football isn't just a sport any more, it's big business. Harsh, but true.

Washington Irving

bpb101 wrote: »

firstly if your talking about our group we were second seed in that btw

Yes and no

Is there much sense in sending san mario into the finals to be the whipping boys.
I would be more in favor of a more generalized seeding
top 30 teams in pot 1 , 30-60 in pot2 60-90 in pot 3 , 2 teams from each or something along them lines

for the finals , all would be fair in love and war though

This would be the best compromise imo. Having a seedless free-for-all would be a complete mess and would be just as unfair as the current system.

For the finals themselves, there should be no seeding. Every team there was good enough to qualify so should be given the same chance to advance through the group and not be fcuked over by further seeding.

JamboMac

blueser wrote: »

While in theory you are correct, you're sort of missing the point raised by myself and a few others on here. The mega companies that are in bed with UEFA want the "bigger" nations there, as that means more exposure for their brand. If you were the CEO of, say, MacDonald's, who would you prefer to see playing a match in a stadium with your billboards around the edge of the pitch; England/Germany/Spain/Italy etc or San Marino/Faroe Islands/Cyprus/Gibraltar etc? I'm afraid that football isn't just a sport any more, it's big business. Harsh, but true.

No I do see everybody's point regarding big companies, but I still wouldn't see the really small nations getting through. See I don't see the point in saying lets make football fairer and then go but we have to guarantee these teams make the tournament.

Adamcp898

Lads it's not just about making big money, seeding is also there to preserve the quality of football at the actual tournamnet.

Picture a group with Spain, England, Germany, and France where two teams don't go; then picture the group with Moldova, San Marino, Andorra, and Lichenstein where two teams do go then.

The end result would make the group stages of the actual competition itself completely pointless and it wouldn't be entertaining until the quarter final stage at least.

citytillidie

Every Confederation apart from South America seeds qualification it is not a European thing.

JamboMac

Adamcp898 wrote: »

Lads it's not just about making big money, seeding is also there to preserve the quality of football at the actual tournamnet.

Picture a group with Spain, England, Germany, and France where two teams don't go; then picture the group with Moldova, San Marino, Andorra, and Lichenstein where two teams do go then.

The end result would make the group stages of the actual competition itself completely pointless and it wouldn't be entertaining until the quarter final stage at least.

In recent tournaments 3 of those big teams haven't shown up at times and quality was well below what is expected.

Adamcp898

JamboMac wrote: »

In recent tournaments 3 of those big teams haven't shown up at times and quality was well below what is expected.

Yep exactly, the quality and importance of international football has been in decline for a while. This would only serve to exacerbate it.

JamboMac

Adamcp898 wrote: »

Yep exactly, the quality and importance of international football has been in decline for a while. This would only serve to exacerbate it.

How would it see the quality of football decrease at a rapid rate, some of the little teams have clearly improved going by some of the results over the last couple of days.

Adamcp898

JamboMac wrote: »

How would it see the quality of football decrease at a rapid rate, some of the little teams have clearly improved going by some of the results over the last couple of days.

Some have, some have not. Expanding the tournament already will see more weaker teams at the Euro's and it's not that long since the last WC expansion. Adding in more poor teams will only dilute the quality further.

Think of how many games in the qualification stage are forgone conclusions and not worth watching unless you have a vested interest, then think of having a few of those at the actual tournament. Like I say, it could make the group stages pointless and a glorified warm-up for the big teams that do go.

citytillidie

European system is a lot fairer than some.

Look at North America and Asia they have already started their qualification process for the 2018 World Cup, to make sure that the same 4 or 5 teams go to the World Cup

JamboMac

citytillidie wrote: »

European system is a lot fairer than some.

Look at North America and Asia they have already started their qualification process for the 2018 World Cup, to make sure that the same 4 or 5 teams go to the World Cup

Is it not FIFA who set out how qualifying for the World Cup is accomplished whereas the confederation are in charge of their cup, if we want corruption gone from football that doesn't just mean sepp Blatter.

blueser

Adamcp898 wrote: »

Some have, some have not. Expanding the tournament already will see more weaker teams at the Euro's and it's not that long since the last WC expansion. Adding in more poor teams will only dilute the quality further.

Think of how many games in the qualification stage are forgone conclusions and not worth watching unless you have a vested interest, then think of having a few of those at the actual tournament. Like I say, it could make the group stages pointless and a glorified warm-up for the big teams that do go.

Agreed. We need less quantity, more quality. Watch any world cup finals tournament; a lot of the group stage matches are poor, and I would imagine that the increased numbers in France next summer will hardly improve the overall quality.

Adamcp898

JamboMac wrote: »

Is it not FIFA who set out how qualifying for the World Cup is accomplished whereas the confederation are in charge of their cup, if we want corruption gone from football that doesn't just mean sepp Blatter.

Nope, each confederation organises it's WC qualifying format.

The South American one is quite good, everyone plays each other twice, but obviously isn't practical for the bigger confederations.

JamboMac

Adamcp898 wrote: »

Nope, each confederation organises it's qualifying format.

The South American one is quite, everyone plays each other twice, but obviously isn't practical for the bigger confederations.

Unless you divided Europe into 4 groups of random picked teams, the big teams should still get through, but I think fairer.

ArmaniJeanss

JamboMac wrote: »

So for the likes of European qualifying and World Cup qualifying Europe seeds it's teams to keep the large ones safe from meeting and basically guarantee that they make it to these tournaments.

I think really everybody should be given a fair chance

Which teams or tiers are being given an 'unfair chance' at the moment and thus need a fair chance? Surely its currently a highly merit based system where depending on performance a team like Ireland can move from number 1 seeds to (nearly) number 4 seeds and hopefully back again in the space of a few campaigns?
Which other sports and their nonseeded qualification systems would you like to base it on (clue : no other sports follow your ideas).

citytillidie

JamboMac wrote: »

Is it not FIFA who set out how qualifying for the World Cup is accomplished whereas the confederation are in charge of their cup, if we want corruption gone from football that doesn't just mean sepp Blatter.

Yea and in those confederations qualification for their cup is sometimes tied in with World Cup qualification.

The Asian Cup in 2019 qualification is being decided now in this early group stage of qualification.

Group winners go into the Asian Cup and onto the 3rd round of World Cup qualification, then it goes haywire after that, 2nd placed teams go into the 3rd round of world cup qualification and maybe into the Asian cup and some into another qualification round for the Asian Cup.

Teams 3rd to 5th go into more qualification rounds for the Asian Cup

Kirby

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

It's all about past performance.

Its not that simple. There are some very average teams with high seedings.

You get a high seeding, and therefore get an easy group. You win all your games because its an easy group with no decent teams in it.....and maintain your high seeding. Which means you get an easy group next time. And so on.

It's a bit of a loop. Ranking needs to be more heavily weighted. Beating Germany should give you a hell of a lot more ranking points than beat Gibraltar.

Beefy78

Kirby wrote: »

Its not that simple. There are some very average teams with high seedings.

You get a high seeding, and therefore get an easy group. You win all your games because its an easy group with no decent teams in it.....and maintain your high seeding. Which means you get an easy group next time. And so on.

It's a bit of a loop. Ranking needs to be more heavily weighted. Beating Germany should give you a hell of a lot more ranking points than beat Gibraltar.

Beating Germany does give you a hell of a lot more ranking points than beating Gibraltar.

Seems like a lot of sour grapes in this thread, tbh. Wales have shown that the seedlings are nothing that cannot be overcome.

citytillidie

The rankings will be updated before the draw next month but if the draw was tomorrow here is the seeded for UEFA World Cup qualification

Pot 1
1 Germany
2 Belgium
3 Netherlands
4 Portugal
5 France
6 Spain
7 Switzerland
8 Romania
9 Italy

Pot 2
10 England
11 Czech Republic
12 Slovakia
13 Croatia
14 Austria
15 Wales
16 Greece
17 Scotland
18 Denmark

Pot 3
19 Bosnia and Herzegovina
20 Poland
21 Ukraine
22 Iceland
23 Sweden
24 Israel
25 Hungary
26 Northern Ireland
27 Serbia

Pot 4
28 Slovenia
29 Albania
30 Turkey
31 Republic of Ireland
32 Bulgaria
33 Norway
34 Montenegro
35 Finland
36 Belarus

Pot 5
37 Latvia
38 Armenia
39 Cyprus
40 Estonia
41 Lithuania
42 FYR Macedonia
43 Faroe Islands
44 Azerbaijan
45 Moldova

Pot 6
46 Liechtenstein
47 Luxembourg
48 Kazakhstan
49 Georgia
50 Malta
51 San Marino
52 Andorra

citytillidie

Beefy78 wrote: »

Beating Germany does give you a hell of a lot more ranking points than beating Gibraltar.

Seems like a lot of sour grapes in this thread, tbh. Wales have shown that the seedlings are nothing that cannot be overcome.

There is no FIFA points for beating Gibraltar as they are not a FIFA team.

UEFA have there own ranking system compared to FIFA.

UEFA ranking system is used for Euro qualification and FIFA ranking is used for World Cup qualification

blueser

Beefy78 wrote: »

Beating Germany does give you a hell of a lot more ranking points than beating Gibraltar.

Seems like a lot of sour grapes in this thread, tbh. Wales have shown that the seedlings are nothing that cannot be overcome.

Iceland also punching well above their current ranking a the moment.

Beefy78

Yeah fair point but Gibraltar are a one off. Point is the rankings are weighted.

Kirby

Beefy78 wrote: »

Yeah fair point but Gibraltar are a one off. Point is the rankings are weighted.

We know that. Hence the words "More heavily weighted" in my post. :rolleyes:

The fact is, beating a germany or brazil once, should be the equivalent to beating a minnow 7 or 8 times. And its not. Which is why you have seen some ridiculous ranking anomalies over the years. You are better off hammering a few minnows than grinding out hard fought draws against the big teams. Aand there is something fundamentally broken about that system.

Richard Hillman

Yes for qualification but no for tournaments.

I think the likes of the champions league is ridiculously over-seeded and geo-blocked.

Mousewar

Seeding is fine when you do it once but when you do it twice in the one qualification process it becomes corrupt. For the 2010 World Cup qualifiers, Ireland were seeded in the third group but exceeded their seeding by finishing 2nd and going into the playoffs with seven other teams. Despite the advantage of being top seeds, teams like France, Portugal and Greece also found themselves in the playoffs. So, Ireland, along with Slovenia, Ukraine and Bosnia had, despite the disadvantage of being lower seeds, achieved the same as France, Portugal and Greece. The reward should have therefore been the same - equal status in the playoff. Yet, Fifa decided to do another round of seeding and in so doing gave the 'bigger' countries a second advantage. Fifa's determination to see the 'bigger' countries make it to the Finals and their disregard for smaller nations was never more stark than in that event.
B*stards.