Is it time to switch off radio for good

radioland

this might be seen by some as a rant - it's not. It's just maybe to start a conversation on where we think radio might be going, particularly music radio.

For Breakfast radio, without exception it's mainly double teaming drivel which to me seems to be aimed at - well I actually don't know. Of course I know it's a business and they have to make money but to me it's shocking

Stations used to lead and now they follow - down the same path of dumness. It's primarily formatted, it's boring and I've stopped listening . In years to come the excuses will pour out from the broadcasters in exactly the same way they've done from the music industry. The only difference between stations across Dublin today is that sometimes the music is different (not much) and all the presenters sound the same .... Exactly the same. Maybe it's a sad comment on our broadcasting courses (can you actually teach some one to broadcast)

But radio heads, wake up and smell the coffee you're killing your own industry . It's goodbye from me

As to where the industry's going - in 5/10 years I believe we'll be like the uk. It'll be a future of master licences with local content to keep the natives happy. But that couldn't happen in Ireland, could it , one or two extremely powerful media magnates controlling an industry...............

Enjoy Heroin Responsibly

radioland wrote: »

Stations used to lead and now they follow...............

This is the biggest problem with radio in Ireland and the UK.

Instead of finding their own niche the overwhelming majority of stations seem to be obsessed with sounding like each other. The BAI/OFCOM could double the number of licences available tomorrow and within two or three years there would be still just as little real choice.

NIMAN

Couldn't agree more.

I don't listen to breakfast radio, you couldn't pay me to
Maybe it's just my age and I don't get it any more?

Next are the lunchtime chat shows. The huge stars of these are on megamoney, but it tends to focus a lot on misery and more misery.

Add to all this, there are the set playlists, and indeed radio plays very little music compared to what it used to (or am I imagining this).

The real freedom on radio seems to be after 7pm, it's where you hear a more random mix of music, and indeed less drivel and waffle from self obsessed djs

I could listen to John Creedon morning, noon and night.

neris

agree breakfast radio is rubbish. too much talk, fake voices, ****e gags and "celebrity" obsession & fawning "gossip" .

endacl

Wifi + TuneIn app = Good radio.

I haven't listened to Irish radio in years, because there is no end of quality alternative programming available to me through technology.

Enjoy Heroin Responsibly

neris wrote: »

agree breakfast radio is rubbish. too much talk, fake voices, ****e gags and "celebrity" obsession & fawning "gossip" .

The sad thing is much of this is classed as "news and current affairs" for BAI purposes

endacl

RopeDrink wrote: »

I've had Radio switched off ever since discovering the likes of Pandora and Spotify. If I wanted to listen to people ranting about whatever the latest hot topic is in the country, I'd just go and listen to my Dad.

That's probably just me, of course.

Not just you. I'd rather listen to your dad than Irish radio...

kneemos

Don't listen to it much but "Beat"tends to just have music without the garbage whenever I do tune in.
As the OP says who exactly is the target audience for this manic shoite ?

CatFromHue

I can see why people would be against radio just from the Breakfast shows as I do turn the radio off sometimes then.

But Tom Dunne and Moncreif are pretty good shows. I think Dunnes's one in particular is a gem of a show.

BrensBenz

Yes indeed, the "good" stuff is getting more and more scarce. But every generation thinks the new generation is tasteless and the older generation is boring so trying to define what is "good" is a waste of time.

I listen to RTE "Gold" on DAB. Now, how many of you do? I think it's the best music available. How many of you do? I also listen to radio documentaries and drama on BBC Radio 4 and RTE 1. I think it's an excellent way to pass an hour or two. How many of you do?

I worked in the States for years and the prospect of having "that" type of radio in Ireland is scary. But "hundreds of millions of Yanks can't be wrong" so it will come here because there's a market for it.

We have hoards of unemployable meeja studies grads practicing their Merkin accents, just waiting. We also have a growing number of airhead MBAs and meeja studies graduates, and fast buck merchants in the radio business, already tweaking and broadcasting trivia and watching their profits increase.

So, really, it's OUR fault! Yes, US, the listening public! We also moan about but continue to buy cr@ppie newspapers. Our fault!

While we wait for American, one-size-fits-almost-nobody, single-jenre-on-a-loop radio to arrive, if anyone would like to be part of a posse to arrange for Adrian and Jeremy (Nynee Eight FM) to become organ donors, let me know. Yeah, yeah, I know it's not their fault that they haven't an iota of talent between them for anything other than schoolyard muck-stirring and winding-up callers, but "somebody" in authority decided to put these two morons on the airwaves and I would like to meet them, for a full and frank discussion, you understand.....like. Be right back, y'all.

total former

These are commercial radio stations. They'll play, do or say whatever will attract the greatest market share. Ireland simply isn't big enough for niche services to be viable.

I hate the "wacky" breakfast show model as much as anyone else but it's what many people want to hear.

The good news is that the existence of RTE ensures there will always be a mix of content available, which is funny considering RTE is the most frequent object of derision and rants on this forum.

So essentially, be grateful for RTE and don't expect commercial radio to go highbrow anytime soon.

Declan A Walsh

Increasingly temporary licensed stations on FM like 8radio.com are filling the void in quality radio, apart from the nighttime shows on permanently licensed stations where there tends to be more free rein.

The main problems with temporary licensed stations is that they only get 30 days each year, tend to be on weekends and need to be financed by the operators of said stations. The weekend bit I understand because the people involved usually have their day jobs during the week, given the voluntary nature of these stations.

The main exceptions to the weekend inclination is Christmas FM and college licenses.

If there was some mechanism for encouraging weekday temporary licenses, along with the on-going weekend licenses, and more temporary licenses in general, then we will have more hope of getting the quality radio that so many of us desire. How is another question entirely!

mikeym

Have Bluetooth connectivity in the car so I can listen to my songs on the phone.

Enjoy Heroin Responsibly

total former wrote: »

Ireland simply isn't big enough for niche services to be viable.

Nonsense

There are already niche services (albeit too few) in Ireland

We could have many more if the cost base (largely a regulatory imposition) were reduced.

total former

Enjoy Heroin Responsibly wrote: »

Nonsense

There are already niche services (albeit too few) in Ireland

We could have many more if the cost base (largely a regulatory imposition) were reduced.

I like how you dismiss my point as nonsense, then rely on some massive hypothetical sea change for your point to be true.

We don't have a single commercial niche station AFAIK. It's easy to blame the regulatory bogeyman but the reality is that the sums just won't add up.

Technocentral

I love radio, listen to Pat Kenny show when I can, then BBC R4, BBC 6 Music, World Service and NPR. Loads of smart, quality radio programmes, can't see the problem.

Technocentral

total former wrote:

So essentially, be grateful for RTE and don't expect commercial radio to go highbrow anytime soon.

Newstalk is now as good or better than R1

Enjoy Heroin Responsibly

Technocentral wrote: »

I love radio, listen to Pat Kenny show when I can, then BBC R4, BBC 6 Music, World Service and NPR. Loads of smart, quality radio programmes, can't see the problem.

If you only have access to Irish stations there is a problem

Technocentral

Enjoy Heroin Responsibly wrote: »

If you only have access to Irish stations there is a problem

True I listen on broadband and mobile data on phone when out, still, Newstalk has loads of great shows and presenters.

Enjoy Heroin Responsibly

total former wrote: »

We don't have a single commercial niche station AFAIK.

Newstalk ?

We used to have more but the BCI caved in and let them all change their formats to some variant of playlisted 80's "classics"/CHR.

If a station cannot keep to the programming promises in its original licence application said licenced should be revoked/readvartised. If a station faces going under as a result of being required to keep to the terms of its licence so be it.

total former

Enjoy Heroin Responsibly wrote: »

Newstalk ?

We used to have more but the BCI caved in and let them all change their formats to some variant of playlisted 80's "classics"/CHR.

If a station cannot keep to the programming promises in its original licence application said licenced should be revoked/readvartised. If a station faces going under as a result of being required to keep to the terms of its licence so be it.

Newstalk isn't really a niche station, it's talk radio that aims for the broadest market possible and has huge money behind it.

Re: stations not honouring their licences; that just proves my point really. Dublin's Country flopped, Phantom flopped, they just couldn't build the audiences to be viable so they had to do something. Whether they should have been allowed to or not is another question.

BarryD

Technocentral wrote: »

Newstalk is now as good or better than R1

Agree in general that there's a good deal of interesting radio still there. Don't quite agree re Newstalk though, I wouldn't listen to Ivan Y if you paid me, find Moncrieff OK for a while.. then wearing. Too many info commercials and thinly disguised advertising etc. etc., never mind the matters that can't be commented on, for fear of upset.

Had a quiet Sunday evening a few weeks ago and was pleasantly surprised by the variety of content on Radio 1 here - from the History Show, though a programme of morality, a decent play, The South Wind and The Rolling Wave shows etc.

Enjoy Heroin Responsibly

total former wrote: »

Re: stations not honouring their licences; that just proves my point really..

Nope

All it proves is that the regulator isint doing its job

The licencing process is a farce. Stations tell a pack of lies to get a licence then go crying to the BAI 18 months later and they fall for it every time.

The only licence applicant who ever told the truth was Chris Cary.

If indigenous specialist stations cannot be established (although I dont believe this is the case) then we should allow foreign ones on DAB multiplexes.

Declan A Walsh

total former wrote: »

I like how you dismiss my point as nonsense, then rely on some massive hypothetical sea change for your point to be true.

We don't have a single commercial niche station AFAIK. It's easy to blame the regulatory bogeyman but the reality is that the sums just won't add up.

Surely TXFM is a commercial niche station - its remit is Alternative Rock for the Dublin area.

total former

Declan A Walsh wrote: »

Surely TXFM is a commercial niche station - its remit is Alternative Rock for the Dublin area.

That's what its licence says alright. In reality it's about as alternative and niche as Coronation Street.

I'm sure you know this but TXFM started life as Phantom and spent the next decade dying a slow death. It has never turned a profit, has miniscule audience share and only investment by Communicorp has kept it on the air.

It's not a good ad for viable niche radio I'm afraid.

The Black Oil

I stopped listening to Newstalk some time ago, the breakfast show in particular drove me away. I'm a little reluctant to listen to Irish current affairs radio as I catch bits through news sites during the day and there's only so much negativity I can take. That plus repetition of familiar voices from across the political or economic landscape. I generally don't listen to music stations as I don't particularly follow any artists or genres.

Very much into podcasts now, but I begin and wind down my day with BBC Radio 4.

L1011

Enjoy Heroin Responsibly wrote: »

The sad thing is much of this is classed as "news and current affairs" for BAI purposes

And is the only reason it exists.

Until the draconian BAI content rules are removed, stations won't improve. These rules that exist to "improve" radio content just ensure terrible talk shows and constant rotation of One Direction (they're legally Irish, see...) tracks.

Without the BAI news/current affairs and Irish content %'s its possible that a niche station might survive in its licenced niche rather than pissing all over the PPS of other licenced stations as they currently do.

SimonMaher

I know I've said all this before, and I should know better but just for the record here it is again.

Total Former makes the flawed assertion that niche radio is not viable in this country given our population size. It's a common enough misnomer based in itself around flawed economics. The statutory role of the BAI is to ensure the balanced development of radio services with regard to plurality and diversity both in terms of content and ownership.

The issue emerges though when this regulation is done backwards. I think I can speak with some degree of experience on this one! If the BAI makes a decision that a particular type of service is desirable (in terms of adding to the diversity/plurality that they are statutorily obliged to deliver) for a niche such as Country Music or Alt Rock or Dance Music or whatever then it is for them to consider the economic models that will make such a service viable and not the other way around.

The example of Phantom was mentioned above. DOI - I was a co-founder of, director of, Manager of, Presenter on and employee of Phantom until 2011. When we were putting our applications together there was an expectation that all applicants would pitch models that were seen to be "large" enough to be sustainable. For that reason, Phantom was pitched at a revenue model that required more than €1.5m a year to survive which was nuts, even in the proper nutty times of the mid 2000's.

Phantom quite quickly built a share of about 1.7% (about 55k listeners per week) which, for a niche station, is perfectly respectable and sustainable if the revenue model was matched to that share - lets say €500k per year. If you have a sustainable business model then you won't have the concern of stations format flipping or diluting themselves to try to pay the bills (as we at Phantom did). If you strangle them from the start then what currently happens is inevitable and people will continue to proffer the argument that niche radio is "not viable".

Comes back to the argument above and Total Formers flawed logic. If we decide that we want niche broadcasters (and we should!) then we have to make it survivable. If we do that then we get the plurality and diversity that the regulator is required by law to deliver and we don't get the situation we have now where previously licenced niche operators seek to change formats to survive or can only survive in some form at the bidding of larger media concerns.

Simon

total former

Thanks for that Simon, and as a huge fan of Phantom since before the legit launch and for many years after, I absolutely recognise your authority and knowledge in this regard and I'm delighted that you're contributing here.

However, since you've told me there are flaws in my logic, let me highlight the flaws in yours... You say you quickly built up a share of about 1.7% and that would indeed be great for any new station; but I wonder how many of those were genuinely new converts or people (like me) who simply made the switch from listening to a pirate station to listening to a very similar licensed station? A new niche station wouldn't have that same pre-existing loyal following, so the comparison is not really valid. The radio dial is a bit more congested now than it was when you came on the scene, so even for a casual listener to stumble across a new station is harder, not to mention the fact that more and more people are using alternative methods to listen to their music, so you'd need more advertising spend (see below) to drive awareness.

Re: the cost base and business model - I'll bow to your superior knowledge but there must be a minimum cost in terms of actually running a studio, transmission costs and paying your staff below which you cannot drop, regardless of your business model? 500k seems like a very low figure, but again, I don't know enough about it. If we're taking about commercial viability, then every penny of that has to be recouped through advertising, plus whatever profit the owners are hoping for. For a low-key, low-audience station to bring in that kind of revenue would be quite an achievement.

I think the thread is mixing now between what radio should be and what it is. If we're talking commercial radio and commercial viability, then I don't think my economics are flawed at all. If we're talking about the BAI being more pro-active in ensuring diversity, then that's a different argument, and unless they actually go down the route of subsidising radio stations, I'm not sure how we can bridge the gap between the two.

I absolutely admire the lengths you went to in order to keep Phantom in keeping with what it was and what it should be, but if you had been taking the decisions from a purely business perspective, what would you have done?

Loving 8radio by the way.

SimonMaher

Absolutely right Total Former - this is a very different debate to the original one! Mods, please feel free to split this into a "Future of Niche Broadcasting" thread if that's possible?

Glad to hear you were a fan of Phantom and even gladder to hear that you are enjoying 8Radio.com too! To wedge in a plug, 8Radio.com is on air for 15 weekends piloting a niche service in Galway on 89.5FM, Dublin 94.3FM, Limerick 105.5FM and Cork 106.7FM.

To deal with the revenue/cost base bit: Of course a radio station can be run for 500k if it has to be. You are talking about a very different business model in terms of scale. The Country FM submission that is available on the BAI website sets out this business model quite well. There are less staff and I used to say they would be paid less until I saw the wages being paid by some much larger Radio stations! There is inevitable outsourcing of some operations like news and some sales functions and then you have your other costs like Rent, Transmission etc. It is absolutely do-able, but it does need a cultural change to accept it. Radio stations in most other countries on the planet manage it (even with smaller markets and niches) so no reason why we can't. Some stations use the purely ad and sponsorship driven model, others use commercial as well as listener funded models and variations on the two.

Really it is for the BAI to decide what niches they want covered (and surely that is their role) and then the business models have to be developed from there. It is for the applicants to put together feasible and workable proposals and obviously to persuade the BAI that they are best placed to fill that niche. The only other option is the status quo where we're losing younger listeners book by book and will continue to do so until terrestrial radio is just a habitual choice of older people while the crazy kids listen to "foreign" services via their smartphones or don't listen to radio at all.

You make a very fair point about the difference for a new service building audience now and 10 years ago. I don't know the definitive answer to that one! We are building a decent audience for 8Radio.com on a low budget (but a lot of hard creative work) and I reckon future stations just need to be clever and creative in how they market themselves. Remember, not alone are they marketing themselves against the FM competition, they are also marketing themselves against not listening to radio at all. I don't think it's all about budget anymore - I think you could spend a lot on marketing a niche on traditional media and get very little return. Has to be very targetted, very smart and most importantly - ongoing. Can be done on a much smaller budget but the work is much harder.

All very deep stuff!

Simon

radioland

Folks I started this so let me make an observation . I asked about the future. I see a lot discussion about niche but no one mentions there are several niche stations such as Spirit and Nova.

For me the problem remains that too many stations are following each other into the abyss in my view. Most of the stations are painful to listen to . To be fair to Radio 1 it shows some diversification but as for Newstalk . Suffice to say I don't need advice from Ivan Yates.

I can just hear the I can't make money lobby and the give me a share of the licence fee but seriously if you enter into a market of your own free will - so be it.

But back to my original point, I fear for the future and I've switched off - just saying

L1011

radioland wrote: »

I see a lot discussion about niche but no one mentions there are several niche stations such as Spirit and Nova.

Spirit are funded by donations. Nova are slowly become Q102 mk II (and Sunshine mk III) rather than serving what PPS they're licenced for.

A niche station should be able to operate commercially within its own niche, and likely could if we had less ridiculous rules.

TheDoc

More often then not I listen to my own music via my phone(Spotify) or one of the three footballs podcasts I'd listen to during the week (offline for summer).

I listen to primarily newstalk as I'm into current affairs and there is nothing that comes close when discussing politics and news and stories around politics. Depending on the topics I'll listen to NewsTalk breakfast, and topic depending normally listen to Johnathan Healy at lunch. I'll normally also tune into Sean Moncrieff for his opening 30 minute chat with a guest.

Outside of that, the odd bit of OffTheBall when I'm driving and it's on(although find their football knowledge and insight poor, and I don't care about GAA or rugby, where they appear strongest)

If I want to listen to actual music though, it's through my phone. But Newstalk is filling a niche for me in terms of political and current affairs stuff.