Not sure how to break it to her

LegacyUser

Hi all,

I'm in a tough situation at the moment.

I've been going out with a girl for about 4 years now. She's not from Ireland, we met when I was living abroad (in her country) and we dated there for about two and a half years. Last year I wanted to come home to study for a masters and kick start a career here.

When I first mentioned it to her, I asked her to come with me. Initially she said she didn't want to come and was quite upset and thought I was being quite selfish. Now, maybe I was to a certain extent, but I was teaching English overseas; I'm not a trained teacher and it was never going to be a long-term career for me. I was in the twilight of my 20's and thought it was the best time to come home and re-start my career before I got too old and the opportunities weren't there anymore.

After talking about it several times, she changed her mind and decided she did want to come. I asked her several times if she was sure and how big of a step it would be for her. She could only get a student visa so would have to study and only be able to work part-time. The plan was for me to study and get a job within the first year and then hopefully we could get her a different visa to allow her to work full-time here.

My contract ended in March last year and started studying in Ireland at the end of April. She couldn't come with me initially because of work commitments, so she travelled to Ireland in August. We were apart for 5 months roughly, we spoke everyday but I felt maybe we were growing apart a bit.

When she arrived, things were good. She met my family and got on well with everyone, my mother and sister especially. We rented a house near where I was studying and she did an English course for 20 hours a week. She didn't really need to do an English course as she is pretty much fluent but it was the easiest and cheapest course for her to do. She got a part-time job working in a restaurant, though it took a couple of months to find this. She worked in two different Chinese restaurants in a short period and didn't get kept on by the second one after only working a few shifts. Around Christmas time she started working in a fast food restaurant and has been working there since.

She doesn't like that type of work and because she has a degree, feels like she should be working in a more career-focused job. That probably comes across as her being a bit snobby, but it's more of a cultural thing I feel. Where she's from there is a huge focus on education and getting a good job, it's very competitive.

She has since finished her course and is still only working part-time hours, mainly at the weekends. This means she has a lot of free time during the week. She doesn't really do anything. She is in bed when I leave in the morning and is in bed again when I come home. She gets up for a few hours to watch TV shows and then when I come home she gets up again. The last few months she has been mainly cooking dinner but before then she didn't even do that. I was coming home from work and cooking most of the time.

I realised she was unhappy and have tried to speak to her about it several times. I've encouraged her to get out and meet some people, but she hasn't really made any friends and has isolated herself. I've tried to support her as much as I can here but I've felt a huge strain. She is so dependent on me for everything and I've been really stressed. I've felt very unhappy about out situation myself, to the point where some of my friends have noticed and have said it to me; that I look down or don't seem myself.

Taking all the above into account, we still applied for a de-facto visa for her. This means we would essentially have similar rights to a married couple so her visa wouldn't hold any work restrictions. However, last week we got a letter back saying our application was rejected as we haven't lived together for two years and to apply again in August next year.

This has really made me re-evaluate our relationship and situation because we don't really have many options left. The only realistic options are for her to do another student visa or get married! Now she has said that she doesn't want have to study again and to be honest I wouldn't ask her to. I've seen how unhappy she was doing it, mainly because even the advanced class was below her ability level so it was very boring for her. Also, add on top of that the fact she can only work part-time, and from what we've experienced, in minimum wage jobs.

We talked last night about it and she mentioned marriage. This is something I'm really not ready for, or even willing to do. I've told her before that I'm not even sure if I ever want to get married. I'm not sure she gets the seriousness of it, like she said we could "try it", or "we could just do it in a registry office and wouldn't have to have an expensive wedding". I felt her tone was very flippant about it, to me it's a very serious thing and something I'm not sure I even want to do.

This leaves me feeling that we have no real options left. At this point I feel like it would be better for us both to break up. I think I have felt this for a while but didn't want to think about it. I feel that the longer it goes on the unhappier I will be. I just think that the relationship may have run its course. I want her to be happy and I don't think she can have the life she wants in Ireland with me.

I just don't know how to break it to her. I know she'll be really upset and I'll break her heart, even writing this I'm getting knots in my stomach.

Sorry if this is really long, I tried to give as much background detail as I could. I could have gone in to a lot more detail but tried to give all the major points as briefly as I could.

Any advice would be appreciated and thank you for reading.

Lux23

Oh gee, that is a tough one and I can feel that you're really afraid of hurting your girlfriend. I suppose the best thing to do is to sit her down and just ask if she would prefer to go home? Just lay out all the cons of her staying in Ireland and the pros of her returning home and you might find that she is feeling the same way. She doesn't sound like she is happy and you may well be doing her a favour in the long run.

Matteroffact

Just tell her that the minute the marriage idea was discussed you realized that you didn't want to be married to her, now or in the future and that because you feel like this you think it must be because she is not the right person for you long term and that because of this you feel that a break up would be the best thing. There is no easy way of saying this and there is no point in trying to cushion the blow by saying things that are not true.

Merkin

I think you know this is the end of the road don't you? You're both clearly very unhappy so you need to break up, and breaking up with someone isn't usually easy. I'd rip off the plaster sooner rather than later and agree on a date when you sever your lease etc.

LegacyUser

OP here again.

So we had a chat a few nights ago. I asked her what she felt about our options, as we really only have two if we are to stay together; her getting another student visa or marriage!

She told me she really didn't want to get another student visa and would "f**king hate me" if I made her go down that route again. I would never force her to do something she didn't want to do, and I know she has been unhappy with the work/study situation this year. She then pretty much insisted that our option is marriage. I again told her that this isn't something I was comfortable with or willing to do. She called me selfish for not thinking of us and just thinking of myself. I really didn't know how to respond to that as all I've done is try to be supportive and encourage her to immerse herself a bit more here.

The impression I got was that she hasn't really considered us breaking up or her going back home. I asked her would she be happy to work minimum wage jobs in order to stay here, she seems to be of the impression that a visa without work restrictions would solve all her work problems and that's all that is standing in her way of getting a "real" job.

I've come to the realisation that the relationship should come to an end, for both our sakes but I just don't know how to break it to her. I had an opportunity when we were talking the other night but I kind of just froze.

I'm really worried about how she will take it and that she doesn't really have any friends here for support. I can only imagine how isolated she will feel, it's really stressing me out.

HelgaWard

It sounds like you have fully decided you want to break up. There is not going to be any easy way to do this. You sound like you are waiting for her to come to the same conclusion as you have, so that you don't have to do the nasty and break up with her. But she may never come to this conclusion herself, so you are just going to have to take the plunge and tell her you have being thinking about things following on from your conversation the other night and that you want to break up.

Will she have enough money to fund a flight back home? As she doesn't have any friends or family here, I think you will need to be a good friend to her after the breakup and try and help her get organised.

It is a tricky situation alright, but the sooner you get it sorted the sooner ye can both move on with your lives.

Best of luck.

gigglemuch82

I've seen lots of my friends going through this situation as I'm not from Ireland and I actually came to this country after marrying my husband.

I think as bad as it sounds, if you don't want feel like you want to marry her, then that's the end of it - you should break up with her for her and for yourself. The worst that can happen now is if she gets pregnant - either by choice or by accident - as it happened to many of my friends. You have no idea how complicated things become then!!

I can see why she's not happy. She has qualifications to get a good job yet she has to be in a school to be able to get a student visa and she's in a deadend part time job where she is not happy. Put yourself in her shoes - you are in a foreign country with no stability and in a ****ty job and you don't even know what's gonna happen in 6 months' time. Obviously she's not happy.

You worry about how she would feel. But the best thing is to let her go and do what she wants to do with her life and you do the same with yours. The relationship has run its course and if you are not sure about marriage after 4 years, then you are definitely not meant for each other.

Breakups are hard. But the sooner you let her go, the easier it will be for both of you.

Have another chat and tell her that you think it's time to end things and just tell her that you don't feel marriage is right for you. Help her get home and be civil to each other.

cactusgal

+1 to the good advice from other posters.

I was in a similar-ish position myself, only I was the foreigner, I broke up with him, and we were already engaged, with a wedding to cancel.

You know yourself it's the right thing to do. She is clinging to the relationship because it's her only security here. But that's not a reason to marry.

After I called off my wedding, broke up with my ex, and moved back, someone remarked to me that yes, it was bad, but

1. Nobody died.
2. Nobody got pregnant.

No truer words spoken. Just do it.

Good luck. It is tough. X

LadyFenghuang

DON'T get married. I think you have reached am impasse. Break up with her hopefully she will sort out her life. Either way I think BOTH of you will be better apart. If you don't want to be with her then you should break up with her it's only fair. Do it as quickly as you can so that she can get herself sorted.

seemeinshadow

You were with the girl for 4 years, are you able to demonstrate this to the immigration authorities? Surely, you must have evidence to support the fact that you two have been dating for more than 2 years (which is the minimum requirement). I dont understand how they could reject your application. Like the other writers above, and speaking from knowing many other people who have had/have experienced what you have gone through, I think it would be a very bad idea to get married if you are not 100% certain about it. Also, it appears that she doesnt seem really into getting married either, it sounds as if she just wants to do it for convenience purposes, so she can apply for full time jobs. Its a very poor foundation for a marriage. Thats just my opinion.

Slutmonkey57b

Your girlfriend's frustration is understandable. You didn't want to work in a job that didn't use your education, so you came home to work (you don't explain why you couldn't have used it there, however). You persuaded her to reverse your situation so that she would be the one not using her education.

You wanted her to stay with you, to change her life to be with you, to plan out a future together, but you say you don't want to get "married". In what way is this suggestion different from marriage?

Were you planning on dumping her in a couple of years? Still wondering if someone "better" might come along and hoping you won't have to slip a ring off your finger in order to chat them up?

The commitments you've already required her to make are beyond what most people ask in a marriage. Your "I don't ever want to get married" comments are nonsense in the face of what you're expecting her to do: live in a purgatory of fast food jobs so you can kick start your career.

I suspect your treatment of her has already "broken the news", you just haven't explicitly said it. I don't have much idea of how you can, other then to ensure that whatever you say includes the admission that all these problems are entirely your fault. You might pay her airfare home too.

CaraMay

Agree with slutmonkey. It wouldn't be ott to be expecting to marry the man you moved country for. You've ask a huge amount of her and seen to be painting her in a negative light now when it suits you. She's put her back into this relationship and at the end if it all you've let her down. Not because you don't want to marry her but because you don't have the chutzpah to tell her.

Mr. Incognito

I think you have been incredibly selfish.

You asked her to move countries, give up her career, family, security home.

She worked dead end jobs, and became depressed. Now you are dumping her.

If there was a simple form for you to fill out so that she could work And use her qualifications would you sign it?

Its called a marriage licence. Thats it. No big deal.

It doesnt have to be a big ridiculous religious ceremony.

If you dont see a future with her you need to send her home. If you do, grow a pair. You dont get to be blaise and selfish here when there is a simple solution in front of you.

fire and ice

Do not get married just for a visa, marriage obviously means more to you than a piece of paper. Yes it's a ****ty position to be in but your relationship has run it's course.

Your girlfriend came here to be with you but didn't try to make friends or her own interests. You sound like you really didn't expect her to return home with you, so your both at fault.

You need to tell her as both of you sound incredibly unhappy.

seemeinshadow

I wouldnt be exaggerating the 'sacrifices' that she has made to be with you in Ireland. There are so many people from outside the EU in Ireland that once they arrive and live here for a while soon establish that they are prepared to do almost anything to stay here long term, whether its pretending to be a student, entering into a relationship with an EU citizen (who deep down they are not really into) to get a de facto visa, fake marriage or many who just end up becoming illegal and working in the black market. The country is rife with this (government recently introduced new student visa rules to try and target this abuse) and the reason for this is that the quality of life in spite of the obstacles to working full time or engaging entirely, legitimately in the work force they still prefer to be here than their home country. So, lets keep an open mind regarding her 'sacrifices'. At the end of the day it sounds like neither of you are really into each other, you dont sound like you are in a relationship with a person who is really in love with you - only you know the answer to that. But again, facilitating her full time work arrangements in the country is a very poor reason for marriage, IMO.

Slutmonkey57b

seemeinshadow wrote: »

I wouldnt be exaggerating the 'sacrifices' that she has made to be with you in Ireland. There are so many people from outside the EU in Ireland that once they arrive and live here for a while soon establish that they are prepared to do almost anything to stay here long term, whether its pretending to be a student, entering into a relationship with an EU citizen (who deep down they are not really into) to get a de facto visa, fake marriage or many who just end up becoming illegal and working in the black market. The country is rife with this (government recently introduced new student visa rules to try and target this abuse) and the reason for this is that the quality of life in spite of the obstacles to working full time or engaging entirely, legitimately in the work force they still prefer to be here than their home country. So, lets keep an open mind regarding her 'sacrifices'. At the end of the day it sounds like neither of you are really into each other, you dont sound like you are in a relationship with a person who is really in love with you - only you know the answer to that. But again, facilitating her full time work arrangements in the country is a very poor reason for marriage, IMO.

The OP has told us that she's a fluent English speaker with a good education who comes from a culture which prizes hard work and academic achievement. She was in an existing job which required her to wait 5 months before leaving so she clearly wasn't working as a shop assistant or a field labourer, was she? What makes you assume that her standard of living at home wasn't actually better than it could be here? Plenty of Australians, Japanese, Koreans and other nationalities have lifestyles better than you can get here.

If the op was living in her country for years and couldn't find a job which utilised his existing degree then it's safe to assume his degree isn't that valuable. She's restricted by her visa requirements. For all you know she's a materials engineer and he's got a degree in history of fine art.

seemeinshadow

The chances of someone from Japan or South Korea having near fluent English is very slim from my own experience. I have seen students from those countries that are doing Masters course here and are no where near fluent in English, and they have to be assisted with special english classes organised by the university, or some take the easy route and get a native to re-word their assignments. He has said that she is near fluent so I dont imagine that Australia applies. A country that prizes hard work and academic achievement? Every country could make a claim to that. If shes a material engineer I think, or at least would assume the OP would have researched the work permit route, with that particular niche qualification. Additionally, overseas qualifications which have not been completed through the medium of English are not recognised in Ireland.

Slutmonkey57b

seemeinshadow wrote: »

The chances of someone from Japan or South Korea having near fluent English is very slim from my own experience. I have seen students from those countries that are doing Masters course here and are no where near fluent in English, and they have to be assisted with special english classes organised by the university, or some take the easy route and get a native to re-word their assignments. He has said that she is near fluent so I dont imagine that Australia applies. A country that prizes hard work and academic achievement? Every country could make a claim to that. If shes a material engineer I think, or at least would assume the OP would have researched the work permit route, with that particular niche qualification. Additionally, overseas qualifications which have not been completed through the medium of English are not recognised in Ireland.

The implication of your original post was that the op's girlfriend was in the same boat as many of the people who would be desperate enough for a better life they would need to enter the country illegally.

The information available doesn't support that thesis and your backhanded attempt to denigrate her sacrifices still doesn't add up.

seemeinshadow

Nope. I was responding to an earlier comment that implied that the girl had to make great sacrifices to come over here. I happen to disagree with that thesis. Majority of people from outside that EU that come to Ireland are happy that they did, thats from my own experience, and yes some do take short cuts to stay here long term (which shows the lengths that some are prepared to go). There is nothing stopping her from returning home. Again going back to the use of the word 'sacrifice', I believe that word is over stretching it.

cactusgal

As someone who is 1. Not from the EU but is living in Ireland, and 2. A university instructor working with Asian students, I can assure you that relocating to another country always comes with an element of sacrifice. And I can also assure you that Koreans, Chinese, and Japanese people are entirely capable of achieving of fluency in English. (!!)

Having said that, I think the op and his girlfriend do not sound like they want the same things, and probably won't be happy in the long term. Yes, they should have had the marriage talk before she jacked everything in to move here. But ... what's done is done.

seemeinshadow

Shes in Ireland, she joined her boyfriend over here. She is here about 10 months, that’s it. Millions of people all over the world emigrate, there are far more difficult things in life that a person could do and that people do every day. Ireland its safe to say probably has a better standard of living than the majority of countries outside the EU. Im excluding Aus, Canada,U.S, NZ because the OP clearly states that she is not fluent in English. Im also excluding S. Korea and Japan, and even China because its very rare to meet anyone from there that has the level of English that the OP implies. It can be safe to assume she has an education which she completed in a different language. Therefore this education is not recognised in Ireland. She has said that she doesn’t want to study anymore, thereby saying no to the opportunity to do a higher level degree course in Ireland which if she was successful could allow her to gain a work permit (with the assistance of the university/college graduate scheme). She has decided against this!! She is not making a sacrifice. No, instead she is looking for the easy route and looking to get married. This girl is taking shortcuts just so she could work here full time, when it would be far more prudent, and sacrificial for her to engage in a degree and follow the work/graduate scheme route. There is a real world out there where people make real sacrifices, and real hard choices and she is not an example of that from the evidence that has been provided by the OP.

Cactusgal: They can of course gain fluency, but it usually comes from a number of years being immersed in an English speaking country. OP states that she already had a very high level of fluency upon her arrival here. Not impossible that she achieved that level but very unlikely.

CaraMay

My sister in law is Asian and he English was immaculate before she ever met my brother so you can't rule that out.

cactusgal

It's definitely possible. And the OP has no reason to lie.

Anyway, this is dragging the post off topic and your posts in particular are getting quite aggressive, so I'll bow out here.

Op, best of luck to both you and your girlfriend, it's a toughie.

seemeinshadow

Im not saying he is lying about his girlfriend's English fluency. I'm stating its more likely that she is from a Non-Asian country, due to her level of English fluency. I could be wrong. Regardless, her education is probably not recognised here, and she has gone against his suggestion for her to continue her studies, despite the fact that if she continued her studies, she could earn a qualification that could get her access to work/graduate permit scheme and much greater employment prospects.
Just like she is making no effort to make friends, she wants to take shortcuts to get access to full time employment and pressurise her boyfriend to get married by emotionally blackmailing him by implying she would hate him if they didnt choose the marriage route.

CaraMay

And he seems to have made no plans for their future despite her moving country and taking crap options to be with him.

Why should she slum it again? If the guy she mived country for doesn't want to marry her by now then he never will. She's given up lots. What's he given up? Nothing and he's not willing to. I would have no issue with him if he were honest with her but he's not being.

seemeinshadow

Yes it appears that he has made it clear to her that he doesnt want to get married, yet she is still pushing for it to happen because its more convenient for her. Taking a year out for a college/university is hardly slumming it, thousands in Ireland do it every year and it will ultimately enhance her long term job and employment prospects. If anything its the logical thing to do.
I dont know what he has given up, maybe the number of years he stayed in her country, perhaps solely to be with her? I dont know. I do agree he should be honest and break up with her.

Slutmonkey57b

seemeinshadow wrote: »

Yes it appears that he has made it clear to her that he doesnt want to get married, yet she is still pushing for it to happen because its more convenient for her. Taking a year out for a college/university is hardly slumming it, thousands in Ireland do it every year and it will ultimately enhance her long term job and employment prospects. If anything its the logical thing to do.
I dont know what he has given up, maybe the number of years he stayed in her country, perhaps solely to be with her? I dont know. I do agree he should be honest and break up with her.

You're totally missing the point. She *did* have long term career prospects of her own, at home. She didn't want to give those up, *he* persuaded her to. And having persuaded her, and strung her along (while feeling that they were "growing apart" during their 5 month separation), he's now ditching her in a foreign country where she's legally prevented from working in her career, has no support network and is financially precarious when she moves out of their shared accommodation. But you seem to think she's manipulated him into giving her a golden ticket into the fairyland of Ireland?

I can't see how giving up her career, moving over here to work dead end fast food jobs for months, then having to go back home and try to get back into a decent job again is evidence that being in Ireland naturally enhances your job prospects?

Once again, you seem to be labouring under the misconception that moving to Ireland to work is automatically a step up. For a lot of people with decent qualifications, it's a step down with fewer job prospects, a smaller pool of potential employers and a very high cost of living.

But sure, all deese forrinners are only gaspin to gerrover here an take a job, whaddabout all dese Chinese girls working in de spar, wha?

seemeinshadow

He says that she had a job over there, he *doesnt* say what prospects she had over there. Im saying if she engages in even a one year full time course, she would have enhanced employment prospects here and it would allow her to obtain a work permit when done. Even if she decided later to return to her home country having a degree from Ireland would be massively beneficial to her.
If she takes the shortcut, the marriage route, she wont have any education obtained from Ireland and have an unrecognised degree with considerably less employment prospects.
Not sure what you are referring to with regards to fast food jobs?? That would be if she continues as she is currently - being an english language student, that doesnt allow her to get a work permit.
Again, the logical option for someone in her position who wants to have a good long term career with enhanced prospects is to choose a higher education course, that will allow her to obtain a work permit, and a massive opportunity as well through such schemes to be employed via internship with a reputable company.
It appears Im the one here offering constructive advice - I would also advise him to appeal the immigration decision regarding his de facto visa application, as surely he has evidence of them living together for a minimum of two years throughout his time 4 years in her country. Slutmonkey, you on the other hand offer nothing but waffle.

Taltos

Mod note
seemeinshadow welcome go PI/RI.
Please have a read of our charter. While advice is welcome once you make it personal you cross a line here and will force a mod response.

Thanks
Taltos

seemeinshadow

Just a reminder of the following point by the OP to the other posters here
“Any advice would be appreciated and thank you for reading”. Instead of vilifying him and criticising his decisions like others are I feel it’s more prudent to make some suggestions.
I suggest to the OP the following points of advice. I have relisted some I already mentioned. I have the impression overall you are having some doubts, and this is compounded by the fact that you consider marriage not to be a suitable option at this juncture, therefore

1. In order to pursue a *work permit*, she could consider a Masters programme, this will allow her the opportunity, upon successful completion, to obtain a work permit that enables her to stay in Ireland long term. Masters programmes offer excellent graduate schemes wherein she can obtain an internship through the scheme with a reputable company. Long term this will be excellent for her, she will have a foothold into the labour market here and improve greatly her employment prospects. Pursuing the marriage route will not change the fact that her unrecognised degree will not take her further in the employment market here. Shop around, a lot of Masters programmes are very economical these days, with many on offer in both public and private institutions. Its one year to complete in most cases.
2. *Appeal the decision* from the immigration authorities regarding your relationship visa application. You have stated that you are together 4 years, and I’m sure you could demonstrate, provide some evidence of this to the authorities.
3. In case she does have a recognised degree, she could pursue the ‘Atypical Work Scheme’ that allows her to work on a short term contract. INIS website has more information.
4. It might be worth trying, even if a long shot - have a look into employment permits, directly. The employment permits amendment stipulates 9 types of permits that would allow her to work full time. INIS and Citizens information have further details.
5. She arrived in August 2014? Therefore in August 2016 you are guaranteed the relationship visa. Can she wait that long? Can both of you hold out another year?
6. If all of the above is not possible, and plausible for both of you, take some serious time to consider the marriage option and ask yourself if the girl that you are with is truly who you want to be with. Its not easy to answer that question, but she is worth the time in giving it consideration.
At the moment I can see you are pointing in a certain direction in your decision, however, try your best to not make a decision in haste. The main thing is talk it through with her the points above, and see where that takes you. It sounds like you stayed in her country to be with her, you gave her four years of your life there. She owes it at least to consider the options above and you owe it to each other to be honest with each other so that you can both take the best option.

OP all the best, I hope my advice is helpful to you.

gigglemuch82

seemeinshadow wrote: »

The chances of someone from Japan or South Korea having near fluent English is very slim from my own experience. I have seen students from those countries that are doing Masters course here and are no where near fluent in English, and they have to be assisted with special english classes organised by the university, or some take the easy route and get a native to re-word their assignments. He has said that she is near fluent so I dont imagine that Australia applies. A country that prizes hard work and academic achievement? Every country could make a claim to that. If shes a material engineer I think, or at least would assume the OP would have researched the work permit route, with that particular niche qualification. Additionally, overseas qualifications which have not been completed through the medium of English are not recognised in Ireland.

You obviously haven't met any Japanese or South Koreans with fluent or near perfect English - they DO exist and they in fact have a very good lifestyle over there and here in Ireland too. Just my 2 cent

seemeinshadow

South Koreans, Japanese do have a very good lifestyle in their country. I never said they didnt. You are right I havent met any Japanese or South Koreans with fluent English that they obtained by only being in their home country and without having being immersed in an English speaking country. I said the chances are 'slim' that they have achieved fluency by only being in their home country but Im sure there are a small number of exceptions.

seemeinshadow

seemeinshadow wrote: »

Just a reminder of the following point by the OP to the other posters here
“Any advice would be appreciated and thank you for reading”. Instead of vilifying him and criticising his decisions like others are I feel it’s more prudent to make some suggestions.

Excellent advice for someone who is trying to help their partner stay here. Problem is, the OP is looking for advice on how to break up with her.

don'tknowwhattodo wrote: »

We were apart for 5 months roughly, we spoke everyday but I felt maybe we were growing apart a bit.

At this point I feel like it would be better for us both to break up. I think I have felt this for a while but didn't want to think about it. I feel that the longer it goes on the unhappier I will be. I just think that the relationship may have run its course.

don'tknowwhattodo wrote: »

I've come to the realisation that the relationship should come to an end, for both our sakes but I just don't know how to break it to her. I had an opportunity when we were talking the other night but I kind of just froze.

OP, do the woman a favour and be honest with her, you owe her that much.

Your second post smacks of that age-old ruse of trying to get the other person to do the dirty work and end the relationship when it's actually you who wants to end it, eugh.

Of course she'll hate you but she'll get over you.

seemeinshadow

Im just not 100% convinced he wants to break up with her. There is enough language in his posts that expresses doubt. A lot of the problems he describes are circumstantial: his girlfriend currently doesnt have access to full time employment and maybe this is contributing to her being withdrawn and not wanting to make friends and maybe this also contributes to the type of chemistry (or lack of) that exists between them at the moment. He was away from her for 5 months, and felt distance from her in that time. I think that is natural, because its really hard to be away from someone for that length of time. I just think that a lot of what this couple might be going through is circumstantial, and perhaps if circumstances changed and one of those 6 points of advice I gave works, then maybe the chemistry between them will rekindle and grow once again. Its worth a shot in my opinion, they have each already given 4 years of their life to each other.

Dark Phoenix

OP bite the bullet and break up with her.

She moved country to be with you which is a pretty big sacrifice yet because you dont see any long term plans in the relationship you wont marry her. so her choice is to study when she doesn't want or need to and work part time on low wages to stay here - for what? to stay with a partner who has no long term interest in her? Why on earth should she do this as its just another sacrifice for you when you are not willing to do much for her.

LegacyUser

seemeinshadow wrote: »

Just a reminder of the following point by the OP to the other posters here
“Any advice would be appreciated and thank you for reading”. Instead of vilifying him and criticising his decisions like others are I feel it’s more prudent to make some suggestions.
I suggest to the OP the following points of advice. I have relisted some I already mentioned. I have the impression overall you are having some doubts, and this is compounded by the fact that you consider marriage not to be a suitable option at this juncture, therefore

1. In order to pursue a *work permit*, she could consider a Masters programme, this will allow her the opportunity, upon successful completion, to obtain a work permit that enables her to stay in Ireland long term. Masters programmes offer excellent graduate schemes wherein she can obtain an internship through the scheme with a reputable company. Long term this will be excellent for her, she will have a foothold into the labour market here and improve greatly her employment prospects. Pursuing the marriage route will not change the fact that her unrecognised degree will not take her further in the employment market here. Shop around, a lot of Masters programmes are very economical these days, with many on offer in both public and private institutions. Its one year to complete in most cases.
2. *Appeal the decision* from the immigration authorities regarding your relationship visa application. You have stated that you are together 4 years, and I’m sure you could demonstrate, provide some evidence of this to the authorities.
3. In case she does have a recognised degree, she could pursue the ‘Atypical Work Scheme’ that allows her to work on a short term contract. INIS website has more information.
4. It might be worth trying, even if a long shot - have a look into employment permits, directly. The employment permits amendment stipulates 9 types of permits that would allow her to work full time. INIS and Citizens information have further details.
5. She arrived in August 2014? Therefore in August 2016 you are guaranteed the relationship visa. Can she wait that long? Can both of you hold out another year?
6. If all of the above is not possible, and plausible for both of you, take some serious time to consider the marriage option and ask yourself if the girl that you are with is truly who you want to be with. Its not easy to answer that question, but she is worth the time in giving it consideration.
At the moment I can see you are pointing in a certain direction in your decision, however, try your best to not make a decision in haste. The main thing is talk it through with her the points above, and see where that takes you. It sounds like you stayed in her country to be with her, you gave her four years of your life there. She owes it at least to consider the options above and you owe it to each other to be honest with each other so that you can both take the best option.

OP all the best, I hope my advice is helpful to you.

First of all I'd like to thank you for this detailed post and suggestions for action. I'll try to answer all the points you outlined.

1) The Masters programme would have been a good option, but when I brought it up with her previously she said that this isn't an option because it's too expensive. I think that along with the fact she doesn't want to study anymore and feels that studying again is like a step backwards for her.

2) As far as I'm aware there is no appeals process for the de facto visa, but if I'm wrong then it's definitely something worth considering. I spent weeks gathering information, according to the INIS website for our application. It was very detailed, including time-stamped digital photos, copies of our bank statements with highlighted transactions, all our facebook messages and posts we were tagged in, a letter from my mother and her mother, a letter from my friend in her country, letter from previous landlord and copy of rent book from current rental property among other information. I also wrote a cover letter detailing our relationship to date, also outlining the reason we didn't live together in her country was for cultural reasons. I thought that the depth of information I supplied along with the cover letter would mean a successful application but they seem very rigid in their response, although they say an application is reviewed on a case-by-case basis. Essentially we were rejected because we hadn't lived together for 2 years although I supplied lots of corroboratory evidence regarding the length of our relationship.

3) Her degree isn't recognised outside her country, most of them aren't from my experience.

4) I called Immigration regarding our options, the woman was very short with me on the phone. Basically she said that either an extension of her current visa or a "skilled" work visa would be the only options. However, a skilled work visa requires her to obtain a job paying €30,000+ and a job that "nobody else in the country" can fill.

5) The only way she will wait that long is if we get married which would negate the purposes of this visa.

6) Since I wrote the initial post here I have been giving it some thought to be honest. I've talked to some family members and friends. I feel like maybe I could but it would be for the wrong reasons, I'm kind of feeling strong-armed into it by her. I'm going to write another post shortly to address some of the points other users have made. I feel like maybe in my original post I didn't make some things clear and some users have made a lot of assumptions about me that I'd like to answer. So maybe that might answer this part a bit better.

Thanks again for the time you've taken to respond and the points you made above. I really appreciate it.

LegacyUser

OP here again. I feel like I need to post a reply to some of the responses some of you guys have made. I appreciate the time you've all taken to respond but I feel that some of you may have made assumptions that I'd like to address.

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Your girlfriend's frustration is understandable. You didn't want to work in a job that didn't use your education, so you came home to work (you don't explain why you couldn't have used it there, however). You persuaded her to reverse your situation so that she would be the one not using her education.

This isn't true at all. I didn't "persuade" her to come to Ireland. When I was thinking about coming home, I talked to her about it. I asked her if she would be willing to come with me. After several conversations she initially said she didn't want to. At that point we both agreed to stay together while I was there and when I left it would be very amicable. We left it there and I didn't bring it up with her again. About three to four months before I left, she came to me and said she had changed her mind. We looked into what visas were possible. She initially applied for a working holiday visa, which is a lottery. There are very limited places and she didn't get chosen. That then limited our options further.

At this point she mentioned a marriage visa/getting married rather than a student visa. We had a conversation about that where I told her I wasn't willing to get married.

Now, I must point out that this isn't down to her or "I don't want to marry her" specifically. From very early on in our relationship, I told her that marriage and having kids is something I don't see for myself. I remember the first time I told her this, she agreed that she didn't want these either. So, I thought we were on the same page from very early on in our relationship.

Some people might not understand this, and even my friends are a bit bewildered by it when I mention I have no intention of getting married or having kids. Society seems to dictate that marriage and kids is the natural path in life, and for most people, this rings true. But, it's just something that I have personally never felt comfortable with. If users feel they want to judge me on this, fair enough. But, I'd ask you not to vilify me for my life choices, as I wouldn't yours.

I feel that many users who have replied here feel like I've misled her, or made her believe that we would be married. I made the points above to illustrate that I believe this isn't the case.


Some users have also been speculating about where she is from based on my comments about her English fluency.

She is from an East-Asian country, had never lived abroad and acquired her fluency level by hard work and study. Also, I would say she is definitely more an exception rather than the norm when it comes to English speaking in her country. Like one user pointed out in East-Asian countries, someone might be doing a masters and can barely speak a word of English yet have good writing/reading ability. It's definitely a cultural thing where they are very much afraid of making mistakes when not speaking and are much maligned by their peers if they make a mistake. I think in these countries there is a feeling that if you can't do some perfectly, don't do it at all; which is completely the wrong mind-set for learning a language in my opinion.



Also, some posts have speculated as to the career she left behind and what degree she has etc. I just stated in my OP that she stayed behind due to "work commitments". I probably should give more detail here as this doesn't really explain what happened. The job she was working at had nothing to do with her primary qualifications, but she got her due to her English ability. She studied English as a minor degree alongside her primary degree. There are pretty much zero job opportunities in her country for her degree and she told me she hated the course in the end anyway, so she won't be pursuing a career in that field.

The job she had was working in an office for a logistics firm. Her job was to liaise with people in foreign countries, mostly other Asian countries but English is the language used for communications. She actually was under no strict contractual obligations to stay but she wanted to stay that extra length of time to gain more experience. I didn't have any issues with this as it's something she wanted to do and an extra few months experience would look better on her CV.

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

If the op was living in her country for years and couldn't find a job which utilised his existing degree then it's safe to assume his degree isn't that valuable. She's restricted by her visa requirements. For all you know she's a materials engineer and he's got a degree in history of fine art.

This isn't exactly correct. My degree is in IT. I had over four years of experience before I left to live abroad. I wanted to come back to study here because of the current opportunities in this sector and to bring my skills up to date. I had mainly worked in systems installation/support but wanted to gain a development role. This required me to study more as I just didn't have the necessary skills to gain employment.




I think this post should answer a lot of the speculation between users that posted here. I'd like to thank you all for your input. It isn't an easy situation and I'm fully aware of the consequences any decision has for either of us. I've felt lost, confused, upset in recent weeks and have been really stressed out about the whole thing.

I feel like the only option really is for us to break up. I definitely don't want to string her along and I want her to be happy and have a good life. I can't offer her what she wants and she is probably better off without me.

meeeeh

don'tknowwhattodo wrote: »

At this point she mentioned a marriage visa/getting married rather than a student visa. We had a conversation about that where I told her I wasn't willing to get married.

Now, I must point out that this isn't down to her or "I don't want to marry her" specifically. From very early on in our relationship, I told her that marriage and having kids is something I don't see for myself. I remember the first time I told her this, she agreed that she didn't want these either. So, I thought we were on the same page from very early on in our relationship.

Some people might not understand this, and even my friends are a bit bewildered by it when I mention I have no intention of getting married or having kids. Society seems to dictate that marriage and kids is the natural path in life, and for most people, this rings true. But, it's just something that I have personally never felt comfortable with. If users feel they want to judge me on this, fair enough. But, I'd ask you not to vilify me for my life choices, as I wouldn't yours.

I feel that many users who have replied here feel like I've misled her, or made her believe that we would be married. I made the points above to illustrate that I believe this isn't the case.

You really didn't think things through did you. What did you expect when you get someone to move with you to the other side of the world. You hardly expected her to be indefinitely in limbo weather her visa will be renewed or not. That has nothing to do with my feelings on marriage which are similar to yours. However all that goes through the window when there is visa required for one person. If you did not intend to marry her you shouldn't ask her to go with you. Fault here is completely yours and it is not unreasonable to expect marriage if your partner asks you to move over to the other side of the world.

The best thing you can do is tell her the truth and help her with any arrangements she needs to make. And you owe her a big apology, not because your feelings changed, that happens, but because your actions were very selfish.

gigglemuch82

I think not wanting to marry or having kids is fine - each to their own.

I think the reason she changed her mind about coming here is because she realised how much she loved you and she probably didn't want to lose you, probably without thinking about the consequences and the difficulties that she would encounter by moving to a foreign country. She probably thought you would stick it up for her and help her out if she decided to move.

Love is all good and fair but I think when reality hits (lots of people say this is what hits married couples the most!), love seems to suffer, especially when the love isn't strong enough.

From your original post to your last, I don't really sense the feeling of love from you or from your girlfriend nor either of you making a compromise to make it work.

Is it because you're in a rut or are you out of love? Your gf knows that you don't want to get married or have kids so I'm assuming that your reluctance to get married is not the real issue here despite the visa issues.

Sometimes people stay in a relationship for comfort or convenience or reasons other than love. You've already made up your mind.

Just tell her and let her go.

CaraMay

You are still laying it all at her feet. What did you expect op when she was moving here?

dellas1979

She and the OP are in the situation because they loved each other, and at the time, did see a future together.

I cant believe how harsh people are being.

She also had and has a choice and responsibility! Is she not her own person?

OP, its now time to make things right and balance this out. I dont doubt you love her in some way, but its now time to let her go.

Slutmonkey57b

There's an element here where I probably underestimated how young you are, and should probably have expanded on what I was saying so it was more easily understood. Given that you're probably 4-5 years out of college, there are plenty of things which might be obvious to me now which wouldn't have been at that age.

don'tknowwhattodo wrote: »

This isn't true at all. I didn't "persuade" her to come to Ireland. When I was thinking about coming home, I talked to her about it. I asked her if she would be willing to come with me. After several conversations she initially said she didn't want to. At that point we both agreed to stay together while I was there and when I left it would be very amicable. We left it there and I didn't bring it up with her again. About three to four months before I left, she came to me and said she had changed her mind. We looked into what visas were possible. She initially applied for a working holiday visa, which is a lottery. There are very limited places and she didn't get chosen. That then limited our options further.

The situation your gf was in here was like this:
Her boyfriend has decided to move back home after several years together. Despite saying previously he never wanted a "wife and two kids" type of relationship, he now wants her to move with him to his country. He makes several attempts to persuade her. When she says no, he continues with his plans, but doesn't actually end the relationship. So she has a dilemma: either she ends the relationship, or she agrees to go with him. What's the other option, stay at opposite ends of the globe for eternity?

I think perhaps when you hear "you persuaded her", you're picturing yourself having to jump up and down, or have a shouting match or a long drawn out series of debates, and that doesn't match with your experience. You have to remember that the forces at work here aren't binary. It isn't a simple "Conversation A leads to result B" situation.

The wider picture as you describe shows that you made repeated attempts verbally to persuade her. Giving up those attempts didn't negate them. You also didn't end the relationship; thereby indicating that you didn't consider her "no" a final one. That's also a persuading factor. She was in a position where either she agreed to what you wanted, or she made the decision to end things. That's also an emotionally persuasive factor that exists whether or not the two of you ever had another conversation about it ever again.

There's "persuasion", as in a debate leading to a mutually agreed conclusion, and there's "persuasion" as in "well I've been put in a situation where I have to decide between the lesser of two evils here." Sometimes, not having conversations about something has a more persuasive influence than having them. Just like she was silently persuaded to change her mind about moving to Ireland with you, she may have assumed that by asking her, you were silently changing your mind about a long term relationship or marriage.

At this point she mentioned a marriage visa/getting married rather than a student visa. We had a conversation about that where I told her I wasn't willing to get married.

Now, I must point out that this isn't down to her or "I don't want to marry her" specifically. From very early on in our relationship, I told her that marriage and having kids is something I don't see for myself. I remember the first time I told her this, she agreed that she didn't want these either. So, I thought we were on the same page from very early on in our relationship.

Some people might not understand this, and even my friends are a bit bewildered by it when I mention I have no intention of getting married or having kids. Society seems to dictate that marriage and kids is the natural path in life, and for most people, this rings true. But, it's just something that I have personally never felt comfortable with. If users feel they want to judge me on this, fair enough. But, I'd ask you not to vilify me for my life choices, as I wouldn't yours.

I feel that many users who have replied here feel like I've misled her, or made her believe that we would be married. I made the points above to illustrate that I believe this isn't the case.

You're understandably defensive about this, but nobody's offended or berating you for not wanting to get married or have kids. Some of the happiest people I know aren't married, or don't have kids, or both. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that! Nobody's being vilified for not wanting to get married.

However when I see you say "I don't want marriage and kids" I wonder what you picture when you say that. There are two meanings to that:
1) "I don't want to have a long term relationship with anyone, ever, I want to be able to get out when I've had enough and I don't want anything slowing me down when I hit the door."
2) "Standing up in front of a priest/registrar and saying a bunch of words is outdated and pointless and stupid, I'm not going to do that, but I'll want a girlfriend at some point, and I don't know maybe we'll live together and keep our bank accounts separate.".

If it's option 1, then here's what you need to understand for your future relationships; Don't ever, ever, get into a long term relationship with anyone, don't move in with anyone, don't buy a house with anyone, don't ask someone to move countries to be with you, don't move countries to be with them, don't meet their parents. All of those things are just as encumbering as a marriage. They also give the other person the impression that you might not be serious about your "not ever getting married" comments. Be honest about what you want, and don't ever, at any stage, give anyone a different impression.

By asking your gf to give up her life, career, and move home with you, you broke that cardinal rule. It's not enough to say "I don't want marriage and kids", you have to be utterly ruthlessly explicit about never giving anyone any impression apart from that. Whether you want them to or not, they'll speculate and draw inferences from your behaviour as well as your statements.

If it's option 2, then I can tell you this about marriage, there are 3 parts to it:
a) The long term, boring, living together, paying bills, having a social circle, being "a unit".
b) The day when you signed some papers, said some vows and had a party. That's just the public acknowledgement of:
c) The actual commitment you make when you decide to get married, which is this: "I commit that I am going to devote a large portion of my life, time, effort and whatever into supporting this other person for as long as it takes, whatever happens." A marriage vow isn't about what you're going to get, it's what you're prepared to give.

Items a) and c) are effectively the same as having a long term relationship (i.e. 5 or 10 years or more) with someone. If you're going to tell someone "Hey, we're going to stick together, and live together, and when life kicks you down, I'll be there", then part b) is immaterial. If someone came in and robbed our wedding rings, burned our marriage cert, and made off with our photo album then my partner and I would lose all the public tokens that make up b). But we wouldn't be any less married.

So when people are having a go at you here, it's not because you said you didn't want to get married or have kids.

It's because you said that on the one hand, and on the other expected to get all the benefits of your girlfriend's long term sacrifice and support, without offering her the same thing back. I refer back to what I said about 1) above. Don't ever, in your position, ever tell the person you're shagging that it's anything other than a short term one off thing. Even if it lasts for years. You'll hurt them if you do, because you'll be saying one thing and doing another.

Oh and the most important advice: If you're serious about no kids then do one of two things today, as in right now, as in immediately:
Stop having sex, or have a vasectomy. There is a Bargain Alert for a vasectomy for ~€200 at the moment. Get one. Condoms, pills, IUD's, they're all imperfect. "I'll make sure to come elsewhere." You can, and will, get caught. Put up a poll, I'll be the first voter! Get a vasectomy now (bear in mind a doctor will probably refuse to do one because of your age, they'll assume you'll come under pressure in 20 years to change your mind about kids when it'll be too late to go back). When, in the future, a mid-30's girlfriend asks you whether you ever thought about having kids, the only definitive answer that's acceptable is "I had a vasectomy 10 years ago." There's no doubts there.

She has her own part to play in whatever lack of communication played out here. But your actions (not your words) helped her along.

I think this post should answer a lot of the speculation between users that posted here. I'd like to thank you all for your input. It isn't an easy situation and I'm fully aware of the consequences any decision has for either of us. I've felt lost, confused, upset in recent weeks and have been really stressed out about the whole thing.

I feel like the only option really is for us to break up. I definitely don't want to string her along and I want her to be happy and have a good life. I can't offer her what she wants and she is probably better off without me.

This is a learning experience for you. But as pointed out elsewhere, the tone of your initial posts was that you seemed to be looking for something to say to your GF about the breakup which made you smell good at the end of it.

There isn't. Sometimes life is about just facing that fact. Sometimes you're the bad guy whether you meant to be or not. We've all been the bad guy and ****ed someone else up royally. When you were planning to move over here together, looking back on it now you know that you should have had visas, jobs, career paths, money, support etc all locked down and sorted out before either of you left. You put yourselves under immense pressure by not having it all done, dusted, in writing, with permits etc before leaving. But that's another lesson; switching countries with a "sure it'll sort itself out" when you're single and just out of college is very different when you've a few years of career and work behind you, and in a relationship.

Slutmonkey57b

dellas1979 wrote: »

She and the OP are in the situation because they loved each other, and at the time, did see a future together.

I cant believe how harsh people are being.

You're right that there are "two of them in it".

One person has lost ... nothing really, they're just a bit uncomfortable.

The other person is stranded in a foreign country with no money, no prospects, and no friends, having given up everything because they bought into something that the first person was selling (even if they were giving it the "soft sell").

dellas1979

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

The other person is stranded in a foreign country with no money, no prospects, and no friends, having given up everything because they bought into something that the first person was selling (even if they were giving it the "soft sell").

Yes - not a nice situation, but what do you expect the guy to do? Marry and stay with her for those reasons?

I mean, why didnt he use his crystal ball to foresee the future?

She is responsible for herself too.

I've been in a relationship (moved for them), and when it didnt work out, I didnt blame them that I'd moved. I made the decision at the time to move based on things that may or may not change. I think its a petty trait to keep blaming the other person.

Slutmonkey57b

dellas1979 wrote: »

Yes - not a nice situation, but what do you expect the guy to do? Marry and stay with her for those reasons?

I mean, why didnt he use his crystal ball to foresee the future?

She is responsible for herself too.

I've been in a relationship (moved for them), and when it didnt work out, I didnt blame them that I'd moved. I made the decision at the time to move based on things that may or may not change. I think its a petty trait to keep blaming the other person.

Who says she's blaming him? She expects support, because he hasn't been honest enough to tell her he's going to leave her.

In any case, both of them have responsibilities, but only one of them has a case for sympathy.