Let go because I'd not do OT for free?

gsi300024v

I started a landscaping job Thurs, go told I wasn't needed next week on the Friday.
You got paid from 7am to 4pm, you were paid 8 hrs and got two 30mins breaks, all fine.
You started work at 6.45am, not so bad, Thurs it was 4.20pm when we were finished and me walking to the car, again not so bad.
But Friday we were emptying rubbish in a off site yard at 4.30, and still emptying the van and washing the machines at 5.30pm, I was told by the other lads we'd not get paid for that time. So I rang the owner of the company.
He said oh they usually just bank them hrs and get them back in winter.
Of the 7 staff out landscaping, only 2 of them were there more than 3 months, most there under a month, two of going back to college in winter.
I said to owner, but I won't be there in winter. He said oh ok we'll pay you for them hrs and just write them down.
5 mins later he rings me back and says it's not busy next week and we don't need you next week and maybe we will the week after.
I said look if you are done with me can you just say it. He wouldn't. I asked about what about the hours I've worked. I'm owed 170 euro. He said we'll pay you end of the month. I pointed out he has no bank details or anything for me. So said send them in.
Just wondering, anything I can do to make sure I get paid, I half a mind to see is there anyone I can report him to.
I know he didn't say, oh you won't work over time for free so I'm letting you go. So I can't really report him, also I know within the 1st 6 months he doesn't need a reason to let me go.
They get paid monthly so I've to wait until then.
Just annoying he gets away with it and I feel for the other staff too.
Any advice?

davo10

gsi300024v wrote: »

I started a landscaping job Thurs, go told I wasn't needed next week on the Friday.
You got paid from 7am to 4pm, you were paid 8 hrs and got two 30mins breaks, all fine.
You started work at 6.45am, not so bad, Thurs it was 4.20pm when we were finished and me walking to the car, again not so bad.
But Friday we were emptying rubbish in a off site yard at 4.30, and still emptying the van and washing the machines at 5.30pm, I was told by the other lads we'd not get paid for that time. So I rang the owner of the company.
He said oh they usually just bank them hrs and get them back in winter.
Of the 7 staff out landscaping, only 2 of them were there more than 3 months, most there under a month, two of going back to college in winter.
I said to owner, but I won't be there in winter. He said oh ok we'll pay you for them hrs and just write them down.
5 mins later he rings me back and says it's not busy next week and we don't need you next week and maybe we will the week after.
I said look if you are done with me can you just say it. He wouldn't. I asked about what about the hours I've worked. I'm owed 170 euro. He said we'll pay you end of the month. I pointed out he has no bank details or anything for me. So said send them in.
Just wondering, anything I can do to make sure I get paid, I half a mind to see is there anyone I can report him to.
I know he didn't say, oh you won't work over time for free so I'm letting you go. So I can't really report him, also I know within the 1st 6 months he doesn't need a reason to let me go.
They get paid monthly so I've to wait until then.
Just annoying he gets away with it and I feel for the other staff too.
Any advice?

Get away with what? From your post, he said he would pay you for the hours worked and wages are paid at month end, so I'm not sure what he has done wrong there. This is a summer job for you so I'm not sure exactly what you expected when you phoned the boss after two days, if I were you I'd move on to the next job and address the wages issue at the end of the month if you don't receive them.

Failing that, you could make a complaint to the Council of Landscapers and Summer Job Employers.

gsi300024v

My issue is I was told I'd get paid for the over-time when I pushed to get paid it, and 5 mins later I'm told there is no work for me next week. I suppose I feel some taking the piss is happening.

Frynge

Just so you are aware he has absolutly no obligation to keep you in employment. If he does not like the colour of the gloves you were wearing he can let you go. So if he is thinking to himself that a new employee is calling him within the first week annoying him (rightly or wrongly) about wages then he might there and then decide that said employee will not make for an easy life, and let him go.

Life is full of challanges and holding down a job will be one for most people at some time in their lives. There is no need to be so vindictive to someone who did give you a chance and who by your own admission has not done anything wrong in terms of paying the wage owed.

Life expierience and move on.

lickme

Welcome to the real world. It happens. I do overtime maybe once a week or every two weeks without extra pay. If you walk out right on the dot at the time your finished the company won't be long letting you go! Was this just a once off or is it happening the whole time? If only happening an odd bit then get on with it, if its happening regularly then do the hours until you can have a meeting with your employer and stop whining and moaning about it. You won't last long in any job with the attitude you have. Discuss over the phone with him in a polite manner the following day instead of ringing him right there on the spot during it. It doesn't look good and I wouldn't hire you.

blinding

If you are young enough and have an educational ability go back to school and try to get some qualifications that employers may have more respect for.

The less skilled you are the more ruthless employers can be with you.

1st Law of Economics. Supply and Demand.

This sadly does not just apply only to wages. The more easily you can be replaced the more ruthless employers (Some,maybe most) can be with you.
The Importance of Supply and Demand to Workers is the single most important aspect in how they are treated.

gsi300024v

Frynge wrote: »

Just so you are aware he has absolutly no obligation to keep you in employment. If he does not like the colour of the gloves you were wearing he can let you go. So if he is thinking to himself that a new employee is calling him within the first week annoying him (rightly or wrongly) about wages then he might there and then decide that said employee will not make for an easy life, and let him go.

Life is full of challanges and holding down a job will be one for most people at some time in their lives. There is no need to be so vindictive to someone who did give you a chance and who by your own admission has not done anything wrong in terms of paying the wage owed.

Life expierience and move on.

I get it, I managed staff before, within the first 6 months you can tell anyone goodbye no reason needed.

gsi300024v

lickme wrote: »

Welcome to the real world. It happens. I do overtime maybe once a week or every two weeks without extra pay. If you walk out right on the dot at the time your finished the company won't be long letting you go! Was this just a once off or is it happening the whole time? If only happening an odd bit then get on with it, if its happening regularly then do the hours until you can have a meeting with your employer and stop whining and moaning about it. You won't last long in any job with the attitude you have. Discuss over the phone with him in a polite manner the following day instead of ringing him right there on the spot during it. It doesn't look good and I wouldn't hire you.

I know there is a different culture in different industries, I've worked at this industry before. They never expected you to work OT for free. You usually leave last job on time and be paid until then, but not for the drive back to your car,I'm fine with that. It's the washing vans an hour and a half after I stopped getting paid I'm not on for. Everyone is on an hourly rate in there, Honestly I'm not that bothered, it's just summer work until I go back to college, but I do feel for the others in there who do it and think not so great of the owner. On Wed one guy got back to the yard after 7pm after starting at 7am. 12 hr day for 80 euro, even if you take off the hour for lunch that comes to 7.27 an hour. I suppose I feel people should stand up for fair treatment, it's not like I'm asking for new boots every months and 2 hrs free lunch, I purely asked it I work 1.5 hrs after finishing time can I be paid for it.

gsi300024v

blinding wrote: »

If you are young enough and have an educational ability go back to school and try to get some qualifications that employers may have more respect for.

The less skilled you are the more ruthless employers can be with you.

1st Law of Economics. Supply and Demand.

This sadly does not just apply only to wages. The more easily you can be replaced the more ruthless employers (Some,maybe most) can be with you.
The Importance of Supply and Demand to Workers is the single most important aspect in how they are treated.

I get that and wonder will things get a bit better as things pick up and there are more options for employees, the down turn has changed things a lot, I see business who'd of taken on summer staff now take on interns, and sure it's free labour, why wouldn't they. I have experience in this area and college done for it, I think that is some of why I didn't last, I know how it is in other similar roles and thought he taking the p out of lads. I've a friend who has his own landscaping business too so it's not like I'm clueless in this area. Yeah I could of waited a week and asked about it, but i think why not deal with things when they come up rather than be pissed off about it. but I have become more demanding I suppose of respect for myself, also
I'm actually changing careers and on a degree course now.
I totally get why he did what he did, would he want me annoying him about paid for every hour i work when he;ll get someone else like the other 7 who do it, would he want me talking to the others saying this is not on, nope he wouldn't. Suppose he could just say, look I don't want you working here, rather than, oh there not enough work next week, sure he has an add on fas site looking for staff now.
I didn't ring him angry or anything, just wanted to know what's what.

Diziet

Waiting a week or so to see how things work in practice would have been sensible. Maybe there is flexibility both ways, but in any case when you are brand new in the job it is sensible to take a bit of thought and time before wading in. You can have self respect and still have a realistic attitude to how and when you challenge things (and see that they need challenging in the first place).

gsi300024v

Diziet wrote: »

Waiting a week or so to see how things work in practice would have been sensible. Maybe there is flexibility both ways, but in any case when you are brand new in the job it is sensible to take a bit of thought and time before wading in. You can have self respect and still have a realistic attitude to how and when you challenge things (and see that they need challenging in the first place).

I probably should have waited a week. I honestly think it would have been the same outcome just a few days later, but guess I'll not find out that now.
Well back to the job hunt!

_Brian

I've come across some "one man show" businesses where the owner has a small number of lads hired, it's not uncommon for them to dislike needy employees. They expect lads to dig in and do whatever is needed to get the job done (as they would themselves) and the pay will be sorted out down the line, often on an add hock basis.

This system works fine for some employees of a more laid back nature.

But if you want to have every box ticked immediately and everything ironed out in advance. Often these employees are seen as too needy to be worth keeping on.

gsi300024v

He has about 5 vans and up to 10 staff, a full time office person, I know what you mean though. But I doubt any of the lads will get there banked time in winter, as one the turn over is massive, two in winter he won't need all of them, and 3 I was not the only one going back to college in winter so wouldn't be there for banked time.
I didn't suit them and possibly they didn't suit me.
Is it not an ok question though to ask, what am I getting paid for here? I was there purely to earn and save money for college next year. I know what you mean though, some can be flexible back, so you do over time and if you need time off for something they give you the hrs off. But there was no way they were keeping track of all the hrs people worked OT.
So I suppose my questions is, suppose 7 lads are doing OT they'll not get paid for or be around come winter to get banked hours, is that ok?

Mrs OBumble

It's not OK, but it is the reality. And Irish labour law does allow for probation periods and getting rid of people during them.

What was the hourly rate like? In come of jobs, the rate being is a bit higher than minimum wage or what most other companies in the sector pays compensates for the downsides.

Also, you have to ask if it was possible for the lads to have worked faster / harder during the day and so got out of there on time - I have no idea if that was the case or not, but sometimes it does happen.

TerrorFirmer

You really could have let that play out a little. Ringing the boss and grilling him like that after two days employment is really totally over the top.

Now you're on about reporting him?

I think you need to step back and have a bit of a think before you take up further employment.

No-one expects someone to work for free on a regular basis but taking that tone with a new boss after 48 hours of employment and a staggering, back breaking 90 minutes of overtime? You have no idea what the 'norm' in that job even was, it may have been a regular thing, or it may not.

There aren't too many jobs where people don't do a little unpaid overtime. Half an hour here, half an hour there, maybe an hour sometimes, whatever. It's part of most jobs. As much as we'd all love to walk out of the office whistling and tapping our watches saying "sorry boss, it's gone 5.01!"

If you really wanted to you could have just taken note of the hours and brought it up later when you've established yourself as an employee, or else suggest that you've worked so many hours of overtime, maybe you could take a half day and be paid a full day.

Be realistic. Maybe wait at least 36 hours before ringing your next boss.

Also your thread title is totally mis-leading.

BettePorter

You started a job on Thurs and by Friday evening you were ringing the boss complaining and querying conditions? I'm surprised he didn't F you off there and then tbh. Ive been that 'full time office person' you mentioned in a similar field id imagine and I can hear the conversation that probably took place once you hung up... 'your man who only started yesterday is already ringing me looking to know where is money is for an hours overtime, i'm not listening to that every day.... get rid asap'!

There has to be give and take in any job and yes employers take the mick but most return the favour. I've had lads go above and beyond timewise ..... and when they need an hour or a half day to do their own thing that's when its returned and they don't get docked. Or like he said its banked til winter. Its not his fault your only using it for summer work. In my experience clockwatchers in any job get less leeway than someone who has no problem putting the extra few minutes in without complaint or expectation.

gsi300024v

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

It's not OK, but it is the reality. And Irish labour law does allow for probation periods and getting rid of people during them.

What was the hourly rate like? In come of jobs, the rate being is a bit higher than minimum wage or what most other companies in the sector pays compensates for the downsides.

Also, you have to ask if it was possible for the lads to have worked faster / harder during the day and so got out of there on time - I have no idea if that was the case or not, but sometimes it does happen.

Maybe they could have worked harder, I only worked with 2 guys and both seemed to work well, didn't take all their breaks so they could get on with the work. The hourly rate was same as the other places, not amazing but not min wage either at least if you count it as an 8 hr day.
IT's a basic labouring job, I get that some folks are well paid and OT is all part of it with out paying extra, when you work for ten euro and hour that generally is not the case. I'm not a hot head or a new guy to this industry. I've worked horticulture in one form or another for the last 18 years. This is the first that was doing, grand if you do get the time off in winter, but of the 7 guys there 2 were going to be in college come winter, and all the others were there less than 3 months, so would they be there come winter, be it from conditions or lack of work come winter, but I get it, if it's time banked and you get it back in winter than it's a good way to try get staff to say in the company.

gsi300024v

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

You really could have let that play out a little. Ringing the boss and grilling him like that after two days employment is really totally over the top.

Now you're on about reporting him?

I think you need to step back and have a bit of a think before you take up further employment.

No-one expects someone to work for free on a regular basis but taking that tone with a new boss after 48 hours of employment and a staggering, back breaking 90 minutes of overtime? You have no idea what the 'norm' in that job even was, it may have been a regular thing, or it may not.

There aren't too many jobs where people don't do a little unpaid overtime. Half an hour here, half an hour there, maybe an hour sometimes, whatever. It's part of most jobs. As much as we'd all love to walk out of the office whistling and tapping our watches saying "sorry boss, it's gone 5.01!"

If you really wanted to you could have just taken note of the hours and brought it up later when you've established yourself as an employee, or else suggest that you've worked so many hours of overtime, maybe you could take a half day and be paid a full day.

Be realistic. Maybe wait at least 36 hours before ringing your next boss.

Also your thread title is totally mis-leading.

Good use of rhetoric, I didn't grill anyone, just asked what way are we paid and for what and when was told hours are banked for winter, reminded the owner I'd not be there in winter as noted in my interview the date I'd need to finish up, and he was grand it seemed, said oh well write it down and he'd pay me. Honestly, I don't like confrontation, I thought look what the lads were saying about not getting paid for over time might be a misunderstanding and easily sorted with a quick chat, and it was, just 5 mins later he rang me back saying go away.
I had an idea what norm was, I'd worked 2 hrs over time in the first 2 days, I'd talked to the lads, so yes I could not tell you the mean or mode hours for every member of staff, I don't think it's fair to say I'd no clue. I asked the supervisor did we get paid for over time, no was the answer just like what the others said.
I didn't say a little over time was terrible but if it's going to be an hour and a half I'm not willing to do that in one day, hearing another say he worked 7 to 7 and got paid 8hrs, again I'll put my hand up, I'm not doing that. It actually showed me how well the other places had treated their staff.

If you really wanted to you could have just taken note of the hours and brought it up later when you've established yourself as an employee, or else suggest that you've worked so many hours of overtime, maybe you could take a half day and be paid a full day.
Yeah this would for sure have been a better course of action, I honestly couldn't believe it though and wanted to ask look what am I or am I not getting paid for. But yeah I should have worked my ass for the week trial not just the 2 days and then had chats.
I'll hold my hand up and say I didn't deal with it perfectly.

gsi300024v

BettePorter wrote: »

You started a job on Thurs and by Friday evening you were ringing the boss complaining and querying conditions? I'm surprised he didn't F you off there and then tbh. Ive been that 'full time office person' you mentioned in a similar field id imagine and I can hear the conversation that probably took place once you hung up... 'your man who only started yesterday is already ringing me looking to know where is money is for an hours overtime, i'm not listening to that every day.... get rid asap'!

Yep, I'm getting 6 lads doing OT for nothing, this lad asking what he isn't or is getting paid for, get rid of him. I can see that exact thing happening. For the record, we got paid end of month, I in no way wanted to be paid that evening or anything for over time. Just the 2 hrs OT, yes I wanted to be paid for it. Look if he'd said we bank OT for the winter and I'm not changing that, I'd not wasted his time with even going for job interview.

There has to be give and take in any job and yes employers take the mick but most return the favour. I've had lads go above and beyond timewise ..... and when they need an hour or a half day to do their own thing that's when its returned and they don't get docked. Or like he said its banked til winter. Its not his fault your only using it for summer work. In my experience clockwatchers in any job get less leeway than someone who has no problem putting the extra few minutes in without complaint or expectation.

HEy I get that, leeway is give and take, I suppose I looked at what the others had said, talked to a friend with a landscaping company and looked at the massive turn over in staff compared to other landscape companies and just didn't feel great about the treatment.

Like if he'd said, we bank hrs from summer for the winter, you won't be here but that's not my fault so if you work 5 or 6 hrs over time a week I am not paying you for it. I'd of said grand, look I won't waste your time even starting.

CatFromHue

Could it be that there actually just wasn't enough work for this week?

JillyQ

Were you being paid an hourly rate or were you salaried?

CruelCoin

BettePorter wrote: »

There has to be give and take in any job and yes employers take the mick but most return the favour. I've had lads go above and beyond timewise ..... and when they need an hour or a half day to do their own thing that's when its returned and they don't get docked.

This pretty much.

Our staff occasionally do a little extra here or there, but in return i have no trouble letting them off to do their nct, supervise a tradesman just arrived at their home, go to the bank, whatever. Without this give and take, life gets difficult for all involved.

OP, i'm in the horticulture industry and i can tell you that Landscapers (my customers) are typically burried in phone calls and details at the end of a day trying to tie up all the loose ends.

Now, i'm up to my tits and you're calling me badgering me over 15 quid? Get real. Talk to me the next day when we have a quiet moment. Do a little give and take. Life lesson hard learned. I do however hope you get paid for the hours worked.

CruelCoin

gsi300024v wrote: »

HEy I get that, leeway is give and take, I suppose I looked at what the others had said, talked to a friend with a landscaping company and looked at the massive turn over in staff compared to other landscape companies and just didn't feel great about the treatment.

Most of the turnover in staff is people simply not wanting to do the work.
Its hard physical work in landscaping, and not everyone can picture themselves doing it day in, day out. High staff turnover is normal for a manual labour industry. (we actually have a pretty low turnover, but i'm giving an observation from what i can see elsewhere).

gsi300024v

CatFromHue wrote: »

Could it be that there actually just wasn't enough work for this week?

Still advertising.

gsi300024v

CruelCoin wrote: »

Most of the turnover in staff is people simply not wanting to do the work.
Its hard physical work in landscaping, and not everyone can picture themselves doing it day in, day out. High staff turnover is normal for a manual labour industry. (we actually have a pretty low turnover, but i'm giving an observation from what i can see elsewhere).

I get that, but compared to the other places I've worked it's never been that high in landscaping. 75% of his staff are there less than 3 months. It's not like he suddenly expanded in the last 3 months, I do get that they need extra staff now compared to winter.

gsi300024v

CruelCoin wrote: »

This pretty much.

Our staff occasionally do a little extra here or there, but in return i have no trouble letting them off to do their nct, supervise a tradesman just arrived at their home, go to the bank, whatever. Without this give and take, life gets difficult for all involved.

OP, i'm in the horticulture industry and i can tell you that Landscapers (my customers) are typically burried in phone calls and details at the end of a day trying to tie up all the loose ends.

Now, i'm up to my tits and you're calling me badgering me over 15 quid? Get real. Talk to me the next day when we have a quiet moment. Do a little give and take. Life lesson hard learned. If only it were easy.

I'm not sure I'd class it as badgering, a 3 minute conversation with a new person asking what are paid for, this could have all been cleared up at the interview or the 1st day.
Yes it's 15 euro or 20 if you call it for both days. But that is an hour a day, if i was on a salary I'd be fine with that, but when getting a lower wage than yeah I want that 50 euro a week. I've worked on a salary and worked an 80 hour week for 6 weeks without a day off, 7 days a week without a day off and was fine with that.
I suppose yeah I'm saying I could have waited a week to ask. Granted.

Yes there is give and take in these jobs.

But lets say nope they work 5 or 6 hrs a week over time, as in working, not just driving back to the yard, and most will not be there in winter, is it ok they ask to be paid for this work.
It is annoying for an owner to be asked this, yes, but if running a business then you'll be asked this by staff.
Basically I see it as taking the piss.

CruelCoin

gsi300024v wrote: »

It is annoying for an owner to be asked this, yes, but if running a business then you'll be asked this by staff.
Basically I see it as taking the piss.

I'd expect to be asked that, but i don't expect for it to happen when i'm balls to the wall busy. Talk to me when i'm less busy, and i'll set the record straight, no problem.

Can you see it from his side also?

Staff can be found really easily these days. If he reckons you were going to be a **** stirrer, then why would he keep you? "No anti-bacterial soap in the toilets, no anti-slip matt in the canteen, no alergies notice". People like this make managerial life a misery, and they are rarely kept. Don't be "that guy".

Fair enough you want to be paid, and so you should, but you should have left it a while, to see if the hours balanced out through troughs and crests.

Can-do! guys get hired. End of story.

gsi300024v

CruelCoin wrote: »

I'd expect to be asked that, but i don't expect for it to happen when i'm balls to the wall busy. Talk to me when i'm less busy, and i'll set the record straight, no problem.

Can you see it from his side also?

Staff can be found really easily these days. If he reckons you were going to be a **** stirrer, then why would he keep you? "No anti-bacterial soap in the toilets, no anti-slip matt in the canteen, no alergies notice". People like this make managerial life a misery, and they are rarely kept. Don't be "that guy".

Fair enough you want to be paid, and so you should, but you should have left it a while, to see if the hours balanced out through troughs and crests.

Can-do! guys get hired. End of story.

Yeah I can see his side of it, here is a guy who is asking for what the others are not, get rid of him, I wasn't asking for everything, I got no boots, I brought my own, my own gloves, my own ear plugs etc so it would be less hassle. Who said his balls were to the wall? More loaded terms. I suppose yeah it's a shame it's like this, you ask to be paid correctly and you are seen as a trouble maker and got rid of before it possibly influences the rest.
I totally get why I was told to go.
I've managed a staff of 17 before, I've had people who'd get on with stuff and others who were a pain in the ass. I suppose though I respected the ones who were up front and honest too. I suppose I got used to being treated a little better in university and now have confidence to stand up for myself, I will agree possibly this is a new skill that need fine tuning.
I suppose if I say here that I was asked to work 1 hr a day over time, most seem to think it's ok on here, I find that enlightening, it's not the reaction I expected. But it seems my way of thinking is far from the norm and I'll have to get used to that with regard to this industry at least.

CruelCoin

gsi300024v wrote: »

But it seems my way of thinking is far from the norm and I'll have to get used to that with regard to this industry at least.

Pretty much every manual labour focused industry is the same.
The day is done when the work is done, and the prevailing train of thought, especially in the midlands, is that days work = day's pay.
Paying hourly for people who so often work from a notepad in their arse pocket is seen as a huge hassle.

It needs changing, and it will, but for now, that's where we are.

meeeeh

I bet those five minutes after your call were not spent creating a strategy. He probably called one of other employees you feel so sorry about and asked what are you like to work with. Looking for new people is hassle even for the simpler positions and but when someone is worried about overtime before they even worked 40 hours, you suspect they just won't be worth the hassle. You would be very close to door and we pay all overtime.

CruelCoin

meeeeh wrote: »

Looking for new people is hassle even for the simpler positions/QUOTE]

It's astonishing really.

Hundreds of thousands of people unemployed, and i got 3 CV's in the door in the entirety of the Feb-May period, when i was looking for 6 part-timers to complement the full-timers.
Too many applicants per vacancy my hole.