China

Gringo180

Just watched BBC's hardtalk there, they had a top Chinese diplomat on and he has absolutely schooled the host who was basically saying that China were out to become the worlds biggest super power and threaten America's dominance in the world and in south east Asia.

Here is a short clip

https://youtu.be/ULGDTGZqS6k

I feel the Chinese are acting in there own interests and are getting unfairly treated by western media and portrayed as some sort of aggressor against America.

Did anybody watch the full interview?

Junkyard Tom

I think the Chinese Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank is far more of a challenge to the US's hegemony than the Chinese Navy can be (for decades anyway) and will be the game changer as regards power and influence in the region. The US was against the AIIB but its great European 'friends' jumped on the potential curry gravy train at the last moment as it heads toward the 21st Century Silk Road.

When China rolled out the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank last October, the stiff resistance from the U.S. (as well as Japan) took the world by surprise. This opposition notwithstanding, AIIB, has so far picked up 27 regional members and seven non-regional members, including the U.K., Germany, France and Italy.

baltimoresun.com

The US's power to economically strangle countries like Iran and Cuba will wane when economic power shifts to east Asia. The US knows this and is quietly retreating from its disastrous all-stick-no-carrot neocon chicken hawk stupidity in favour of plenty of carrot cake. Hopefully it will lead to a more stable world rather fractious one.

johnnyskeleton

Gringo180 wrote: »

Just watched BBC's hardtalk there, they had a top Chinese diplomat on and he has absolutely schooled the host who was basically saying that China were out to become the worlds biggest super power and threaten America's dominance in the world and in south east Asia.

Here is a short clip

https://youtu.be/ULGDTGZqS6k

I feel the Chinese are acting in there own interests and are getting unfairly treated by western medria and portrayed as some sort of aggressor against America.

Did anybody watch the full interview?

Can you give more of a synopsis of the video for those of us who are luddites and dont embrace videoclip technology?

gallag

I know it's cool to be anyone but America but all you have to do is look at a map of what China would like to be their territory to see how wrong they are!

Dannyboy83

Gringo180 wrote: »

Just watched BBC's hardtalk there, they had a top Chinese diplomat on and he has absolutely schooled the host who was basically saying that China were out to become the worlds biggest super power and threaten America's dominance in the world and in south east Asia.

Here is a short clip

https://youtu.be/ULGDTGZqS6k

I feel the Chinese are acting in there own interests and are getting unfairly treated by western media and portrayed as some sort of aggressor against America.

Did anybody watch the full interview?

From what I watched of that, I'm inclined to agree with your analysis, but I don't understand the background story so could be wrong.

The argument presented reminded me of the Letter which Putin wrote to the New York Times a few years ago; Too much unilateral US action and not enough UN action.

Unfortunately Putin tore up that letter and arguments with his subsequent actions in Ukraine, but the Chinese seem to be persuasive - in my uninformed opinion at least.

Iwasfrozen

To add context to this argument I'd like to point out what exactly China is claiming. As you can see from the map China is claiming islands far outside their designated exclusive economic zone.

It's only right that the international community, including America, should take action against blatant land grabs.

Son Of A Vidic

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It's only right that the international community, including America, should take action against blatant land grabs.

The last thing this problem needs is provocative American meddling. so I'd prefer to see America keeping its nose out of a territorial dispute that is none of its business.

BoJack Horseman

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

The last thing this problem needs is provocative American meddling. so I'd prefer to see America keeping its nose out of a territorial dispute that is none of its business.

On the contrary.

The US is the only chance the Asian states have of resisting.

They aren't capable of resisting themselves.
And while China has chosen to ring itself with nations its turned against it, she faces no pan-pacific alliance (yet) & is more than powerful enough to assert its reckless claim over the entire South China sea.

fly_agaric

Gringo180 wrote: »

...portrayed as some sort of aggressor against America?

It's more against the other countries trying to claim islands/territory there. China can ignore them all and do what it likes once the US stays out as it is much bigger, richer etc than the others combined. What can they do?

Comparison of the rotting boat that the Philippines have moored near one island with China's spanking new coast guard/military vessels blockading it in article below shows where the power is.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/2014/newsspec_8701/index.html

I am unsure if its a good move. IMO perhaps China could buy the poorer countries off somehow and compromise somewhat but they must now be calculating that power differential is so large that they don't have to bother with such things.

Iwasfrozen

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

The last thing this problem needs is provocative American meddling. so I'd prefer to see America keeping its nose out of a territorial dispute that is none of its business.

As others have stated the US is the only chance the smaller nations have of resisting Chinese provocation. It can serve as a diplomatic arbitrator. Putting a check on Chinese aggression and negotiating a compromise if parties are willing.

Junkyard Tom

Why are some people hard-wired to believe that what goes on in the South China Sea anywhere on Earth is unequivocally the US's business?

jank

Junkyard Cat wrote: »

Why are some people hard-wired to believe that what goes on in the South China Sea anywhere on Earth is unequivocally the US's business?

Its not, countries such as the Philippines however does have an alliance with the US which it hopes it can act as an arbitrator against a bigger and more powerful China. It is in their interest to have the Americans on board and to leverage them both diplomatically and militarily against more powerful countries.

Dannyboy83

Junkyard Cat wrote: »

Why are some people hard-wired to believe that what goes on in the South China Sea anywhere on Earth is unequivocally the US's business?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I vaguely understand some of the reasons why the UN has become useless, but I wonder if the democratic countries couldn't form some type of sub-organisation with a similar role?
(And if there is one, why don't the US utilise it more often instead of so much unilateral action?)

It's harder to ignore world opinion than it is to oppose a single nation, as we are seeing Ukraine...
And given the shifting power balance and the emerging multipolar world, it would seem to be a good time to get more focus back on international law, rather than international policeman.

JCX BXC

Force China to break up into 2 different countries that'll sort them out.

Son Of A Vidic

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

On the contrary.

The US is the only chance the Asian states have of resisting.

They aren't capable of resisting themselves.
And while China has chosen to ring itself with nations its turned against it, she faces no pan-pacific alliance (yet) & is more than powerful enough to assert its reckless claim over the entire South China sea.

Or perhaps the US is happy to provide a deliberate military crutch against a negotiated resolution of the problem. They see China's actions as a threat to US dominance in the region, a region the US has no business in really. China's claim may be excessive, yet they can probably logic they are counteracting the tentacles of excessive American influence in the region.

As their power and world influence continues to grow, the Chinese probably feel they have a responsibility towards protecting the planets most valuable trade routes & shipping lanes on their doorstep. And as we enter the autumn of the American empire and China becomes the planets dominant power in the coming decades. I suppose what we are witnessing right now, is probably just a taste of things to come.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

As others have stated the US is the only chance the smaller nations have of resisting Chinese provocation. It can serve as a diplomatic arbitrator. Putting a check on Chinese aggression and negotiating a compromise if parties are willing.

I wouldn't be so naive to delude myself into thinking, that the US is the champion of small nations. As always, the US has its own self-interest and empire preservation at heart. The US is not an independent arbitrator and if anything, US meddling would likely be viewed in a provocative manner by the Chinese. A negotiated settlement through independent adjudicators is clearly needed. And that should preclude American involvement.

Iwasfrozen

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

I wouldn't be so naive to delude myself into thinking, that the US is the champion of small nations. As always, the US has its own self-interest and empire preservation at heart. The US is not an independent arbitrator and if anything, US meddling would likely be viewed in a provocative manner by the Chinese. A negotiated settlement through independent adjudicators is clearly needed. And that should preclude American involvement.

Heavens forbid we provoke an aggressor. :rolleyes:

There's nothing to negotiate, the islands belong to the country which owns the territorial waters in which they reside. The United States has its own interests I don't deny that but they have every right to get involved when a larger country is trying to steal land from one of their allies.

BoJack Horseman

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Or perhaps the US is happy to provide a deliberate military crutch

On the contrary (again).

The only US ally in this affair is the Philippines.
The US at many levels has expressed exasperation at the Philippines lack of indigenous military investment.

Much of the Filipino navy is cast-offs & very dilapidated.

The US has some military presence, but would rather it not, especially with no quid-pro-quo.

More encouragingly, Vietnam is starting to reaffirm itself rebuilding its navy around new improved Kilo-Class subs from Russia.
Malaysia & Singapore also boast a descent surface fleet.

None of this however can counter China with 50+ diesel electric submarines & a few years away from aircraft carrier capability.

If you don't support imperialism, you won't support China.

gallag

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

On the contrary (again).

The only US ally in this affair is the Philippines.
The US at many levels has expressed exasperation at the Philippines lack of indigenous military investment.

Much of the Filipino navy is cast-offs & very dilapidated.

The US has some military presence, but would rather it not, especially with no quid-pro-quo.

More encouragingly, Vietnam is starting to reaffirm itself rebuilding its navy around new improved Kilo-Class subs from Russia.
Malaysia & Singapore also boast a descent surface fleet.

None of this however can counter China with 50+ diesel electric submarines & a few years away from aircraft carrier capability.

If you don't support imperialism, you won't support China.

You are correct, It amazes me how people can be so nonchalant about the rise of China, I suppose a lot of people dislike the USA for its recent war record and a lot of that is justified but if the same people think the rise of China will show them they are very mistaken, just look at what they are trying to do here, the biggest expansion and land grab in modern history!

Gringo180

You can listen to the podcast below if anybody is interested.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/ht

As I said already, the Chinese Ambassador came across really well, the islands they are building off there shores is disputed territory so its not as if they are invading or occupying other countries land. If the U.S wants to have a say I think they should practice what they preach, leave it to the international community if anything needs to be done about it.

For a country (China) that is investing billions of pounds all over the world and is the highest contributor of peacekeeping soldiers to the U.N, I personally feel they get too much slack off the western media.

KingBrian2

This is a UN matter and not for political point scoring by American benefactors. All these countries have claims and counter claims to the South China Sea. That region is very prosperous and will continue to be if handled correctly. Vietnam, Philippines nor Indonesia are not going to have a falling out with the biggest player in all of Asia, China.

KingBrian2

Gringo180 wrote: »

You can listen to the podcast below if anybody is interested.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/ht

As I said already, the Chinese Ambassador came across really well, the islands they are building off there shores is disputed territory so its not as if they are invading or occupying other countries land. If the U.S wants to have a say I think they should practice what they preach, leave it to the international community if anything needs to be done about it.

For a country (China) that is investing billions of pounds all over the world and is the highest contributor of peacekeeping soldiers to the U.N, I personally feel they get too much slack off the western media.

They get slack for their human rights records no more. On many other issues, commerce, tourism, fighting crime and stemming the growth of viruses they are partners of Europe and America.

Gringo180

gallag wrote: »

the biggest expansion and land grab in modern history!

Have you any concrete evidence of this? Are you conflating Chinese investment in Africa with expansion and land grab?

The U.S themselves love to meddle in some land grabbing themselves, so as I have already said why have they got any right to stick there nose in Chinese affairs and them building land is disputed territory in the South China Sea?

Sand

Gringo180 wrote: »

Have you any concrete evidence of this? Are you conflating Chinese investment in Africa with expansion and land grab?

The U.S themselves love to meddle in some land grabbing themselves, so as I have already said why have they got any right to stick there nose in Chinese affairs and them building land is disputed territory in the South China Sea?

Would it be fair to say you are more opposed to the US and its perceived hypocrisy than you are supportive of China?

Gringo180

Sand wrote: »

Would it be fair to say you are more opposed to the US and its perceived hypocrisy than you are supportive of China?

That is a fair comment, but I also think the Chinese should be applauded for their contributions to the worlds economy, in what's lets be honest, is a very unstable time, particularly in Europe.

gallag

Gringo180 wrote: »

That is a fair comment, but I also think the Chinese should be applauded for their contributions to the worlds economy, in what's lets be honest, is a very unstable time, particularly in Europe.

China is not benevolent, much like the USA every thing they do is an investment they expect a return from, it's all self intrest. I suspect if China overtake the USA as the world's number one power many that hoped for it would soon regret it.

BoJack Horseman

Gringo180 wrote: »

stick there nose in Chinese affairs and them building land is disputed territory in the South China Sea?

You chose to forget that it isn't just "chinese affairs"

Its Vietnamese, Malaysian, Indonesian, Brunei & Filipino affairs.

A US naval air plane in international airspace or the odd DDG/LCS passing through international waters isn't anything approaching provocative.

What is provocative is constructing artificial forward staging areas & A2/AD weapons stations thousands of miles from home & practically within eyeshot of your neighbours.

What is in everyone's interest though is the maintained inviolability of international waters & shipping access..... In that regard its the 'worlds affairs.'

Gringo180 wrote: »

the Chinese should be applauded for their contributions to the worlds economy,

Decades of currency manipulation & a quasi slave-state can do wonders for commerce.

No doubt you applaud the US & Europe for contributing much much more!