Contador

shutup

My favourite racer. I would be interested in people's opinion on him.

Myself and Alberto both agree he has won three Giros. How many do you consider he has won?

Where do you think he ranks in a best ever list?

Thanks in advance for your input

godtabh

Many people wouldnt agree with you

Raam

He won three but was stripped of one for cheating. That pretty much describes it.

Tony Beetroot

MOD VOICE: NO

shutup

godtabh wrote: »

Many people wouldnt agree with you

I hope some of them come on here and tell me their opinion so. As well as where they think he ranks in a best ever list.

shutup

Raam wrote: »

He won three but was stripped of one for cheating. That pretty much describes it.

Yeah I heard about that but not sure sums it up. A lot of cycling fans and professional riders still credit him with all three.

Raam

shutup wrote: »

Yeah I heard about that but not sure sums it up. A lot of cycling fans and professional riders still credit him with all three.

Johann Bruyneel being one of them. Says it all really.

sullzz

Raam wrote: »

He won three but was stripped of one for cheating. That pretty much describes it.

Yeah but I don't think he should have been stripped of any titles , winning them grand tours when on drugs !!! I couldn't even get onto my bike when I was on drugs !!

unichall

Its an interesting one when you say where does he rank amongst the best ever?

I'm sure plenty of people will highlight his ban and connections to shady people/ teams in the past/ present and say as such he can't be considered one of the all time greats. True.

However all sorts of questions have to be asked of the all time greats and if/ what they were on and why they aren't viewed in the same light.

Just being devils advocate

omri

MOD VOICE: Quoting edited post

Kavrocks

shutup wrote: »

My favourite racer.

People always gravitate towards those who win.

Says it all for cycling's image when people think its fair that somebody used performance enhancing drugs (i.e. cheat) to beat those who play fairly.

shutup

Kavrocks wrote: »

People always gravitate towards those who win.

Says it all for cycling's image when people think its fair that somebody used performance enhancing drugs (i.e. cheat) to beat those who play fairly.

He was my favourite when he got hammered in the tour 2 years ago and even got beaten by his domestique.
He is the most exciting rider with his infamous attacks. He can't rely on his team to help like his rivals at sky and Astana so I respect him more.
I'm also not sure about how fairly the rest play.

niceonetom

Well this thread definitely won't descend into heavily moderated stupidity.

letape

shutup wrote: »

I'm also not sure about how fairly the rest play.

This sounds very LA'esque.... level playing field etc etc

What other cyclists were doing is no excuse. My father in law commented to me today that he saw that cheater won again and then he followed it up with that he believes they are all on something.

Having proven cheaters remain in our sport and still winning doesn't help the sport move on or the public's perception of the sport.

The Giro that was taken off him was a great race to watch. He shouldn't have been in the race though so it was correct to take the win off him - giving it to Scarponi though wasn't the correct thing to do either.

beauf

omri wrote: »

It was a STEAK, you can't cheat on STEAK :P

20k with a broken leg. Must be some steak. I haven't watched him for a while. But watching him in past the tours a few years back he seemed to be exhausted until someone caught or past him, then suddenly had loads in the tank, that no one else had. Perhaps it was tactics to drag people into a false sense of security. Then burn them out. His performance these days aren't as dramatic. All feels a little bit too contrived. I've no knowledge of the sport though so perhaps I'm just bias with all the media reporting.

kumate_champ07

unichall wrote: »

Its an interesting one when you say where does he rank amongst the best ever?

I'm sure plenty of people will highlight his ban and connections to shady people/ teams in the past/ present and say as such he can't be considered one of the all time greats. True.

However all sorts of questions have to be asked of the all time greats and if/ what they were on and why they aren't viewed in the same light.

Just being devils advocate

pre EPO is a little different, the best would still be the best if everyone didnt dope

shutup

niceonetom wrote: »

Well this thread definitely won't descend into heavily moderated stupidity.

Probably won't get answer to the questions either.

VR46

He gets my vote for greatest of all time. 9 grand tours, hopefully 10 come the end of the Summer. That's insane with how competitive it is at the top these days.

Hard as nails and exciting to watch. If we'll ever see another Contador then I look forward to that day.

dastardly00

Breaking news... Contador's bike has a motor!! :eek: :eek:

shutup

^^ at last, thank you.
I don't know enough about the sport to compare the eras but I'm surprised you think he is best ever. I was thinking possibly third.
Am I correct in thinking that all the best riders used to ride all the big races. Now the best guys are rarely in the same field.

godtabh

Disk brakes and all

KingBrian2

Congratulations to Contador for winning. There is a lot of innuendo and cynicism but nothing that proves he was cheating. The same with the FIFA corruption charge. It is all baseless commentary a nothing more. More like jealousy than professional cheating.

dastardly00

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Congratulations to Contador for winning. There is a lot of innuendo and cynicism but nothing that proves he was cheating. The same with the FIFA corruption charge. It is all baseless commentary a nothing more. More like jealousy than professional cheating.

Comparing Contador with FIFA really doesn't do Bertie any favours at all!!

godtabh

dastardly00 wrote: »

Comparing Contador with FIFA really doesn't do Bertie any favours at all!!

Guilty by association

terrydel

shutup wrote: »

My favourite racer. I would be interested in people's opinion on him.

Myself and Alberto both agree he has won three Giros. How many do you consider he has won?

Where do you think he ranks in a best ever list?

Thanks in advance for your input

My humble opinion is that while he is clearly a great cyclist, hes also a serial cheat, and therefore I've very little respect for him or his achievements.

letape

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Congratulations to Contador for winning. There is a lot of innuendo and cynicism but nothing that proves he was cheating. The same with the FIFA corruption charge. It is all baseless commentary a nothing more. More like jealousy than professional cheating.

You may not know that he was banned for doping due to a failed test in the 2010 Tour de France...

Tony Beetroot

letape wrote: »

You may not know that he was banned for doping due to a failed test in the 2010 Tour de France...

They should let them all dope, level playing field then.

ThisRegard

If you were following the daily threads and the main one you'd see some don't rate him for the upcoming grand tours as certain riders were absent from the giro.

Don't know what that says about those riders if people are this cynical about Contador, who incidentally showed a number of clinks in his armour.

KingBrian2

letape wrote: »

You may not know that he was banned for doping due to a failed test in the 2010 Tour de France...

It becomes a lose lose situation. If he was found to have cheated people would be happy he was caught but the sport would be tarnished yet on the other hand force more restrictions on the players and the argument would go that only the mighty would stand a change and the whole competition would be destroyed as a contest.

The players have to comply with the rules no doping but ultimately it is up to the fans to keep the competition going and ensure that doping does not return. It is not always easy with a media that that does not concentrate on the sport rather than on the commercialisation aspect of the game.

pelevin

Whilst I certainly don't want to watch cheats now & stopped watching during the Armstrong era when become aware of how bad & skewed things were, unless people are happy to wallow in some sense of their own comparative righteousness, I don't see what's the point in having any interest in pro-cycling whilst maintaining some condemnatory attitude towards practically the whole history of the sport. There has been a sea-change in attitudes & awareness towards doping, & I think bans for such cheating right now should be practically career ending, but I also accept it was very much entwined in the sport, & whilst wins under the influence particularly in the EPO era & onwards mean very little to me, I don't feel any need to look with scorn on all those involved. It's very much a part of history too that ironically though it may seem, the most bigoted & self-deluded regarding their own virtues were movements like Puritanism - obsessed with other people's sins & devoid of forgiveness.

I only started watching cycling again in 2013 & so missed most of Contador's career. Largely what I have to go on are the 2013 Tour, last year's Vuelta & the Giro just gone. Just being prepared to see what I see & my feelings to flow from that, I love him as a cyclist. I think he has the bearing & attitude of a true champion, unafraid to fail, full of daring & I think he comes across well as a person. Even in that off-putting era, that he had the guts to stand against the Armstrong invincibility machine, which could probably not be underestimated in how intimidating & unpleasant it was, is suggestive of someone of real inner strength.

So I know precious little about him in truth, but right or wrong, I'm very impressed by him & think he performance through the Giro just gone was superb, physically & mentally.

terrydel

Tony Beetroot wrote: »

They should let them all dope, level playing field then.

My arse it would be a level playing field.

ROK ON

I accept that Contador has cheated.
But when I watch a race with him in it I simply cannot help but admire the man on a bike.
In so many races he has been isolated and still triumphed. His display in the Vuelta a few years back attacking in a long drag was simply exhilarating.

In an age of wooden athletes he is always good value for money - a great entertainer. I don't know whether he tactically has it or is it simply a never say die attitude. Whatever it is I cannot help admiring it. Mentally he must be very very strong.

Has he cheated - yes.
Should that matter - yes.
Does it matter to me - no. This is the part I find strange, in that I generally have little time for other none cheaters, but I nearly always smile when Bertie wins.

titan18

Imo, if everyone was dope free, or everyone was doped up, Contador still wins. I think he's one of the most talented riders around and he knows how to race unlike a lot of other riders. He makes cycling exciting, similar to how a lot of people love Pantani. The sport would be boring if it was all Sky/Postal trains up mountains.

I'd still credit him with 3 Giros. He won it on the road and it's not like the guys he were beating were believably clean. Scarponi was assigned that Giro win and he's been suspended before.

Also, Fuente De is one of the best GT stages I've seen since I started watching cycling close to 20 years ago. For that, he'll always go down as one of my favourites. So much riders are willing to do nothing nowadays, that was proper racing.

GT_TDI_150

Hes in my fantasy Director Sportif team, so i hope he is doing ALL he can to win 2 if not 3 grand tours this season.

Cycling is a catch 22 at the moment, teams like SKY controlling stages in that boring pace riding way is killing it but any rider trying to attack In GTs are suspected by the public of have an help of some sort.

highbury1913

Brilliantly talented rider but not my cup of tea at the same time. I remember Jonathan Vaughters saying when he asked Inigo San Milian about Contador(back in '09 when Garmin were thinking of signing him due to Armstrong/Astana) that he was the most talented cyclist he ever came across after he tested him.

I never liked how he played the victim card after his positive and was a delighted beneficiary to return to racing on the back of political influence that resulted in a Giro he shouldn't have raced in. The three fingers salute is nothing new. He did similarly back in 2012 signalling himself as a 7 GT winner. Therefore his unrepentant behaviour means I have a strong dislike for him. Plus his comment after his positive saying he always has surrounded himself with people that were against doping when in fact its a who's who of the doping world in cycling is particularly insulting to people's intelligence.

He might be exciting to watch and has a great riding style but he isn't exactly the type of character I want as the face of the sport.

Brian?

VR46 wrote: »

He gets my vote for greatest of all time. 9 grand tours, hopefully 10 come the end of the Summer. That's insane with how competitive it is at the top these days.

Hard as nails and exciting to watch. If we'll ever see another Contador then I look forward to that day.

As much as I love the guy, he's nowhere near the greatest ever. That's Merkx, by a long long margin.

Contador is probably in the third tier. He's not with Hinault etc because he's not competitive in classics.

irishrover99

EDITED

The biological passport is a great idea but it also makes it easier now for new young riders like EDITED to come into cycling and never get caught. If they micro dope as was reported before, when they start getting tested and continue on through there career, all blood levels will stay the same. It would be harder for a rider to cheat who has been around before the passport came into affect as blood levels would have been up and down depending on how much dope was talking.

Cycling has a history of doping right back to the start and will continue always have.

My respect for Contador has also grown after this giro. Can anyone tell me when a overall winner was put under so much pressure from the best team and still won. The winner usually always comes from the best team. I've never seen it in 25 years of watching cycling. No team has ever put it up the winner so much and not won.

D9Male

ROK ON wrote: »

I accept that Contador has cheated.
But when I watch a race with him in it I simply cannot help but admire the man on a bike.
In so many races he has been isolated and still triumphed. His display in the Vuelta a few years back attacking in a long drag was simply exhilarating.

In an age of wooden athletes he is always good value for money - a great entertainer. I don't know whether he tactically has it or is it simply a never say die attitude. Whatever it is I cannot help admiring it. Mentally he must be very very strong.

Has he cheated - yes.
Should that matter - yes.
Does it matter to me - no. This is the part I find strange, in that I generally have little time for other none cheaters, but I nearly always smile when Bertie wins.

I agree with most of what you say there, ROK ON. He is a fantastic cyclist, and most races he enters are the better for having him participate. He attacks, he has got balls and I was very impressed with his graciousness in dealing with Astana tactics in the Giro.

That said, it does matter to me that he cheated. He has never shown remorse and he has not shown that he is interested in changing how the sport is run by helping to shop dopers.

D9Male

irishrover99 wrote: »

To say that Contador is the only one cheating and that its not a level playing field is wrong.

Even if everyone is cheating, it is not necessarily a level playing field.

EPO turns some donkeys into racehorses, and has less of an effect on others.

Look at the 1996 Tour for an example. Riis before 1990 was a middle of the road domestique for Fignon in the 80s. But he was a fabulous "responder" to EPO. That moved him from a cyclist competing for minor honours to a Grand Tour winner.

D9Male

titan18 wrote: »

Imo, if everyone was dope free, or everyone was doped up, Contador still wins. I think he's one of the most talented riders around and he knows how to race unlike a lot of other riders. He makes cycling exciting, similar to how a lot of people love Pantani. The sport would be boring if it was all Sky/Postal trains up mountains.

I'd still credit him with 3 Giros. He won it on the road and it's not like the guys he were beating were believably clean. Scarponi was assigned that Giro win and he's been suspended before.

Also, Fuente De is one of the best GT stages I've seen since I started watching cycling close to 20 years ago. For that, he'll always go down as one of my favourites. So much riders are willing to do nothing nowadays, that was proper racing.

Again I agree with a lot of this post, as Contador is so, so exciting.

However, how do you know he wins if nobody dopes? How do you know he is not a very good responder to blood doping? How do you know that (say) Thibault Pinot is not fully clean, and if all the other riders were clean, Pinot wouldn't win the Tour by 10 minutes?

Maybe you want to think that Contador is the best rider, clean or doped. And I think there is a chance you are right, but I also admit that doping is so engrained in cycling, that it is unfortunate that we can't talk in definite terms about competitors.

Macy0161

D9Male wrote: »

I agree with most of what you say there, ROK ON. He is a fantastic cyclist, and most races he enters are the better for having him participate. He attacks, he has got balls and I was very impressed with his graciousness in dealing with Astana tactics in the Giro.

That said, it does matter to me that he cheated. He has never shown remorse and he has not shown that he is interested in changing how the sport is run by helping to shop dopers.

Conflicted would sum up my views too. Great to watch, and is it really a victory for anti-doping to give his 2011 Giro to Scarponi? But he still got popped and relied on an excuse as dodgy as the steak he claimed to have consumed...

omri

So can it be said with much certainty that the great champions from the past were racing clean, comparing to the big names from say last 15-20 years which in most cases had some sort of scandal brewing around their success ?

Originally Posted by ROK ON View Post
Has he cheated - yes.
Should that matter - yes.
Does it matter to me - no. This is the part I find strange, in that I generally have little time for other none cheaters, but I nearly always smile when Bertie wins.

Totally agree. Maybe its a case that it's no longer possible to dope to the extent LA did so that he was able to trash the rest. Contador reminded me of LA during this Giro and it's been great to watch. Maybe they all cheat anyway but it's still their legs doing the work. I've no expertise whatsoever in biology/chemistry but I presume at least on the PRO level that doping will give you the extra 5% rather than say turn Cav into uber climber able to win mountain stages just because he doped.

So unless they are caught we will never know, sadly it's not the ideal world we are living in and I don't think cycling is clean. It might be cleaner than in the past. LA is an extreme example but Contador is pretty cocky too with his three fingers at the finish line of the Giro..

CramCycle

niceonetom wrote: »

Well this thread definitely won't descend into heavily moderated stupidity.

MOD VOICE: Too late, it is the Tuesday after a BH weekend, I am too tired to clean this up as it goes, thread closed until later, any issues please PM me