Dreams, consciousness and self-deception

Last night I had a nightmare. No need for much detail: I was living with a real-life flatmate and a female child-killer who accidentally swallowed (what later transpired to have been) a glass of poisonous juice. The child-killer went for a jog, vomited an endless torrent of blood until her body was as flat as a sheet of paper, and she folded before me, dead, as I was parked in traffic with the person who offered her the drink.
Suddenly, the uneasy relationship between the killer and my other flatmate all made sense to me, as did the seemingly inconsequential drink that the killer had consumed earlier in the dream. The whole thing 'came together' in the end.

Leaving aside the unrealistic and graphic nature of the dream, it struck me how in our dreams, our brains can pre-plan the outcomes to some complex narratives in order to confuse or startle another part of our brain, which seems to experience the narrative remotely, as if the creation of another person, not knowing what will happen next. This is despite the fact that the narrative seems to have been working toward the 'big finale' from the outset.

How is this happening? Why is it happening? How many parts can the brain 'split into' in order to confuse, mislead, or deceive 'consciousness'? Does it only happen when we sleep? Does it bear any relation to schizophrenia and hearing voices?

Sorry for all the questions, any clarity at all would be nice.

JuliusCaesar

Ah there you open a pot of worms!


There are a lot of theories about dreams and what they might mean (or not), ranging from the psychoanalytic approach (dreams are the royal road to the unconscious) to the completely pragmatic (dreams are the result of random firing of neurons [Hobson] and the dream bit is our tortuous attempt to make a story or narrative of the resulting images/emotions). Revuonso, a Finnish researcher, thinks they are to rehearse emergency responses to situations; other psychologists think they are a way of the brain cleansing itself.

Personally I'd go with the dream being the creation we wake up with, and this is what makes them so slippery, so difficult to hold on to. Even telling someone your dream an hour later you become aware of scene jumps, gaps in the story, stuff you have left out.

I'd like to hear what others think.


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JuliusCaesar

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Ah there you open a pot of worms!

The expansive questions reflect an expansive gap in my knowledge.:o

I feel like I should read-up on consciousness before I can even formulate my questions correctly.

I guess I could distil my question by asking 'how can the mind be able to outwit itself, and simultaneously not know it is being outwitted?'

There are a lot of theories about dreams and what they might mean (or not), ranging from the psychoanalytic approach (dreams are the royal road to the unconscious) to the completely pragmatic (dreams are the result of random firing of neurons [Hobson] and the dream bit is our tortuous attempt to make a story or narrative of the resulting images/emotions).

That latter explanation is interesting. I was thinking, what if the narrative wasn't chronological like I perceived it when I awoke?

What if it happened in reverse, i.e. began with the woman vomiting blood on the road, and my brain manufactured a narrative backwards from that scene. In that case, the fact that memory recalls a certain sequence when we wake, is nothing more than the brain's attempt to put order on chaos?

Torakx

My view of the unconscious mind is one that has no capacity for language.
Everything appears to be converted to symbols or a combination of the senses connected to neuron paths and to memories(including ideas and future).
The future vision, must be built from the past. Unconsciously I would say through symbolism.
Where I could be contradicted is where language is used in dreams we remmeber. I could try patch that up by saying it might be the conscious mind using those symbols to form or apply reason and meaning. A sort of spark gap between conscious and unconscious as information is sorting.

I do think most or at least some dreams have some kind of meaning to us unconsciously. Consciously they might be of no use.
Maybe CBT techniques and mindfullness are best to work with these types of dreams.
I haven't remembered my dreams in a few years. I presume I do dream, but never conscious of having any.
Maybe because I day dream so much.
Meditation for me is sitting quietly in a room just not thinking. I do this a fair bit between activities.
I wonder if people with hectic lives and missing meditation, become more conscious of their dreams and have more erratic dreams.

Osho some guru in the middle east somewhere said that he doesn't dream at all, because he is content with his life and living his dreams and future in the present.
I often feel content even having a miserable situation to live in.
Not sure what to think of all that..

That' an interesting observation. I don't know about anybody else, but my dreams are never particularly pleasant! I mean, you're never just rowing your boat down the Shannon on a sunny June morning, are you?

There's always a shark in the water, or your teeth have suddenly fallen out, or it's Leaving Cert English Paper II and Emily Dickinson is at home in bed.

So yes, maybe dreaming is a function of stress.

If anyone has any pointers for beginners trying to understand dreams, consciousness and how our brains can mislead us, I'd be grateful!

Torakx

I first read about psychology and dreams throughCarl Jung. He is the stereo type of a right brain philosopher.
Creative, symbolic minded etc.
He has many stories about dreams and interpretations.
Hard to tell if there is any substance in these anecdotes, but it was food for thought.
I actually found I understand things better when reading Nietzsche. He works at a more fundamental level. The primal drives and psychology.
I'd reccomend Carl Jung for questioning dreams themselves. But I honestly have no looked around for better authors on that topic.

For sorting lifes stresses and problems, I found Nietzsche to be the best so far.
At a foundational level, I learned toaccept everything and let go of my troubles so much easier.
It's like a primal understanding thatcarries on up to everything I think consciously and probably through repetition of thought, unconsciously more and more.
It's very hard to be angered, made sad etc. I choose how to feel more often than not.

First thing I would wonder in relation to you having weird or unfavourable dreams, is if you are passionate about whatyou doin your daily life?
Do you feel real passion for it?
If not, do you know what you are passionate about?

For me it's self expression. I paint digital art and write a lot. This helps me express my inner self
As Nietzsche would have said, this would be my expression of my will to power. The drive at a primal, physiological and psychological sense, bubbling up to be acted on.
It might be the case that when we repress this drive and passion, we tense up and cause ourselves issues physiologically and psychologically.
Maybe... It sounds very mystical...

I think Nietzsche was certainly correct when he said that music alone is the highest art form.
The will to power or primal intentions can be felt through the music, without any lyrics.
A good example is Vivaldis 'Four Seasons', when listening you don't need lyrics to understand which is winter and which is summer.
You can FEEL it in the music. This for Nietzsche is the expression of the "will".
I am supposing that if this will in all of us is repressed, we may find other ways to let it bubble forth.
One of those for the psyche, could be dreams.
Another could be some illnesses.
In another thread I mentioned having doubt on psychosomatic illness. I do still, but I also think that tension held unconsciously in our bodies can interfere with functioning.
I can for example Slow down my heart beat, just by becoming aware of it and then wanting it to slow down and it does...

I guess to conclude my waffling, I think if you are having nightmares or issues with dreams disturbing you, you should look to express the "will". Painting, music or any art form for expression, dance etc etc
Whatever allows you to create an unstructured expression..
Lyrics and other such structured expression(visual art) are weak and on the surface expression.
The structure taints the full expression of the will.
So I reckon if you can play an instrument you could fully express yourself at levels that can't be put to words.
I supppose expression without preordaned structure.
As you can see, y writing does me so much injustice, I think in feelings and pictures, so I am always falling far short of what I think.

I'l stop writing now haha!