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Sentencing

Comments

  • #2
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    He'll be out in under 18 months on T.R.


  • #3
    MarkAnthony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    He got 8 years with 5 suspended. What purpose do you think a ten year sentence would serve? The state has limited resources. Locking away people solely to incapacitate non-violent offenders is a waste of those resources.

    80% of Dublin domestic burglaries are heroin addicts, do think they guy had any notion or concern about what his possible sentence might be?


  • #4
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    MarkAnthony wrote: »
    He got 8 years with 5 suspended. What purpose do you think a ten year sentence would serve? The state has limited resources. Locking away people solely to incapacitate non-violent offenders is a waste of those resources.

    80% of Dublin domestic burglaries are heroin addicts, do think they guy had any notion or concern about what his possible sentence might be?


    So the law abiding citizens should just put up with drug based crime ??? And burglary is acceptable because it's 'non-violent'? You have obviously never been burgled.
    Yes, I would lock him up to save the stress, hassle and crime that guys like this cause to the rest of society. Believe you me, it would be cheaper in the long run.

    (A cheaper solution would be to legalise hard drugs for addicts, but thats not what I raise here)


  • #5
    MarkAnthony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    It's simply not cheaper in the long run. That's been borne out by the decision not to build more prisons. Of course I don't think law abiding people should be the victims of burglaries. I do however thing Judges are not placed to solve the issue. The issue is dealing with the underlying problem rather than trying to emulate the failure that is the US system and lock people up for long periods of time, it solves nothing and simply costs money.

    Placing a heroin clinic at each of the major hospitals in Dublin and handing it out, feeding them and giving them somewhere to sleep would reduce burglaries by 80% and make Dublin a safer and nicer city overnight at a hugely reduced cost. It'll never happen as people would prefer to vote in a politician that's 'tough on crime' - tough being doing stupid things like introducing mandatory sentencing.

    That said, that'll never happen either as we simply can't afford the prison places. Judges know this, politicians know this, so we just end up in a continual deadlock where at best people nibble around the edges with the general public wringing their hands complaining that Judges are out of touch, when it's themselves which have lost all perspective.


  • #6
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    MarkAnthony wrote: »
    He got 8 years with 5 suspended. What purpose do you think a ten year sentence would serve? The state has limited resources. Locking away people solely to incapacitate non-violent offenders is a waste of those resources.

    80% of Dublin domestic burglaries are heroin addicts, do think they guy had any notion or concern about what his possible sentence might be?

    A ten year sentance would serve to keep him away from peoples houses for an additional five years. Whilst burglary is not a violent crime, it is a very invasive one which often has a terrible lasting effect on its victims, particularly the more vulnerable ones.

    I'm not sure where you are getting the information about heroin addiction and burglaries but the majority of burglaries are not motivated by a need for heroin, simply greed.


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  • #7
    MarkAnthony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    A ten year sentance would serve to keep him away from peoples houses for an additional five years. Whilst burglary is not a violent crime, it is a very invasive one which often has a terrible lasting effect on its victims, particularly the more vulnerable ones.

    I'm not sure where you are getting the information about heroin addiction and burglaries but the majority of burglaries are not motivated by a need for heroin, simply greed.

    Garda study from a criminal law text book, rather well sourced but a poor student. Most burglaries are motivated by the need to a quick fix by someone not thinking straight. 80% in fact. There are far more effective ways for the greedy to get rich from crime, selling heroin being one of the primary ones.

    When we fill the prisons with heroin addicts where are we going to put the rapist and murderers? We can have this circular debate as much as we want but the fact of the matter is we don't have enough prison places and no amount of indignation on our parts changes that. It also does not change that there are more effective ways of dealing with the situation that are completely outside the realms of the CJS.

    Furthermore even if we did have the ability to incapacitate people for another few years it would make very little difference, they'd just be out after a slightly longer period, breaking back in again - I'd prefer a solution that lasts for the lifetime of the person or the addiction rather than pay the guts of €75K or more a year to lock them up.


  • #8
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    MarkAnthony wrote: »
    Garda study from a criminal law text book, rather well sourced but a poor student. Most burglaries are motivated by the need to a quick fix by someone not thinking straight. 80% in fact. There are far more effective ways for the greedy to get rich from crime, selling heroin being one of the primary ones.

    When we fill the prisons with heroin addicts where are we going to put the rapist and murderers? We can have this circular debate as much as we want but the fact of the matter is we don't have enough prison places and no amount of indignation on our parts changes that. It also does not change that there are more effective ways of dealing with the situation that are completely outside the realms of the CJS.

    Furthermore even if we did have the ability to incapacitate people for another few years it would make very little difference, they'd just be out after a slightly longer period, breaking back in again - I'd prefer a solution that lasts for the lifetime of the person or the addiction rather than pay the guts of €75K or more a year to lock them up.

    Could you link that study? The probation services study would seem to disagree.

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/drugs-link-to-70-of-crimes-on-probation-206026.html

    And in my own experience, while drug users may make up quite a few of the offenders in burglaries, the motivation for the crime is not drugs and addiction rarely a factor.


  • #9
    MarkAnthony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    Could you link that study? The probation services study would seem to disagree.

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/drugs-link-to-70-of-crimes-on-probation-206026.html

    And in my own experience, while drug users may make up quite a few of the offenders in burglaries, the motivation for the crime is not drugs and addiction rarely a factor.

    No I'm afraid not and I'm not sure what your link is proving either tbh, it seems to suggest pretty much what I'm saying. Rarely a factor is simply wrong, you'd only need to go and look at most of the people up in the CCJ on theft related charges, if we're going to anecdotal information.

    Let's say for a second you're correct, it's pure greed. Once we fill the prisons with the greedy, what do we do with the rapists and murders? Why are so many greedy, sober, experienced burglars caught? It would seem to me well planned, executed robberies would the order of the day for the good old fashioned cat burglar.


  • #10
    234
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭234


    Quote from your link:
    The survey found that for 74% of drug-misusing offenders, and 71% of alcohol misusing offenders, their misuse was linked to their current offence.

    For drugs, 37% of offences were acquisitive crimes (thefts, burglaries and robberies) and 31% were drug-related offences, mainly possession.

    For alcohol, 21% of offences were assaults, 20% acquisitive crimes and 19% were public order offences.

    The research said that while substance misuse was linked to the offences, they were not necessarily the cause. Other factors — including mental health, lack of self control, anger problems — also played a part as did issues such as disrupted family background, lack of parental control, low education and childhood abuse.

    So in terms of drugs being linked to acquisitive crimes the figures given are only a few percentage points short of what Mark Anthony posted.

    In terms of the other reasons that the probation service give for the commission of crime other than drug misuse, none of them would be remedies by incarceration and most would be exacerbated.


  • #11
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    MarkAnthony wrote: »
    No I'm afraid not and I'm not sure what your link is proving either tbh, it seems to suggest pretty much what I'm saying. Rarely a factor is simply wrong, you'd only need to go and look at most of the people up in the CCJ on theft related charges, if we're going to anecdotal information.

    Let's say for a second you're correct, it's pure greed. Once we fill the prisons with the greedy, what do we do with the rapists and murders? Why are so many greedy, sober, experienced burglars caught? It would seem to me well planned, executed robberies would the order of the day for the good old fashioned cat burglar.

    I've been to plenty of court cases thanks and I know many prolific burglars. Some are likely motivated by addiction but the worst of them are simply greedy. They are caught because they don't care about the consequences as the punishment is generally light.
    234 wrote: »
    Quote from your link:



    So in terms of drugs being linked to acquisitive crimes the figures given are only a few percentage points short of what Mark Anthony posted.

    In terms of the other reasons that the probation service give for the commission of crime other than drug misuse, none of them would be remedies by incarceration and most would be exacerbated.

    Drug misuse is not the same as being motivated by addiction.


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  • #12
    234
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭234


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    Drug misuse is not the same as being motivated by addiction.

    Fine, but a variety of causes are suggested in the article and greed isn't one of them. And if anybody gives the issue two seconds of thought they would realise that nobody gets rich by robbing houses. If greed is such a strong motivator in those people they would channel it into other activities, legal or illegal.


  • #13
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    234 wrote: »
    Fine, but a variety of causes are suggested in the article and greed isn't one of them. And if anybody gives the issue two seconds of thought they would realise that nobody gets rich by robbing houses. If greed is such a strong motivator in those people they would channel it into other activities, legal or illegal.

    Like what? It's not like they tend to be skilled in anything.


  • #14
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Ah it's the annual sentencing thread!

    Previously on Boards.ie legal thread...

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=94654120


  • #15
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    The fact that drugs might be behind all these crimes is, in my opinion, all the more reason to lock the offenders up (so long as drugs are illegal). If not in jail, they WILL offend again.

    Does nobody in the Irish establishment or court system believe in law and order and protecting citizens from crime?


  • #16
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The fact that drugs might be behind all these crimes is, in my opinion, all the more reason to lock the offenders up (so long as drugs are illegal). If not in jail, they WILL offend again.

    Does nobody in the Irish establishment or court system believe in law and order and protecting citizens from crime?

    What's your opinion based on other than an emotional reaction? Do you think the sentence given in that case was unduly lenient?


  • #17
    Grolschevik
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The fact that drugs might be behind all these crimes is, in my opinion, all the more reason to lock the offenders up (so long as drugs are illegal). If not in jail, they WILL offend again.

    Does nobody in the Irish establishment or court system believe in law and order and protecting citizens from crime?

    Ah, sure we may as well just kill them all. Cheaper in the long run...



    [EDIT: to clarify -- satire]


  • #18
    MarkAnthony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    I've been to plenty of court cases thanks and I know many prolific burglars. Some are likely motivated by addiction but the worst of them are simply greedy. They are caught because they don't care about the consequences as the punishment is generally light.

    Drug misuse is not the same as being motivated by addiction.

    There's no nee to take offence or think that any willies need waggling. I've not been able to back up my source and we simply resorted to an anecdotal discussion - if you need your anecdote to be better than my anecdote I've no problem with that. If you want to dig deeper into this feel free if you look at the various studies the information conflicts; as one would expect. There obviously isn't someone there from the CSO asking someone if they're under the influence of heroin when the break in.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    The fact that drugs might be behind all these crimes is, in my opinion, all the more reason to lock the offenders up (so long as drugs are illegal). If not in jail, they WILL offend again.

    Does nobody in the Irish establishment or court system believe in law and order and protecting citizens from crime?

    The issue is whether motivated by addiction or greed, there isn't the space to lock them up. There's no point in getting on about judges in relation to that fact. I'd prefer a near crime free utopia, the Criminal Justice System has remarkably little effect on that, the courts in isolation almost no positive effect whatsoever.
    Grolschevik wrote: »
    Ah, sure we may as well just kill them all. Cheaper in the long run...



    [EDIT: to clarify -- satire]

    Funnily enough, not under the US system - costs more to kill them than lock them up for life.


  • #19
    Grolschevik
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    MarkAnthony wrote: »
    Funnily enough, not under the US system - costs more to kill them than lock them up for life.

    Is that including the years of appeals from Death Row, though?


  • #20
    MarkAnthony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    Grolschevik wrote: »
    Is that including the years of appeals from Death Row, though?

    The legal costs being the major contributor. I suppose I get to quote Shagspak (although the actual meaning is lost on most) here and say "Kill all the lawyers".

    I completely understand where the OP is coming from, I just wish people would realise the underlying problem. I can't think of a single newspaper article or news story in recent times trying to highlight and deal with the underlying issues.


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