Car scheduled repair, comes away with another problem

cerastes

In a nut shell, I booked my car in for maintenance, while there I experienced a hard sell to do some other work, when I declined I was given an unhelpful attitude, from what I can tell they more or less expected me to leave the car with them for further work.

On driving it away, I noticed that after only a few hours in their care for one job, another unrelated component/system has gone faulty, which also happens to be something they were insisting on doing work on.

Ive had the car for a few years and up to driving it to them there was no problem, immediately after leaving I noticed there was a problem, they'd already delayed me by keeping me waiting, had given me a bad attitude when I declined their offer of further work and even declined initially to sign and stamp the log book for the work carried out and then when they did, it was only reluctantly so.

Its only today have I had a chance to look over things, one of which is the logbook mileage they wrote in is inaccurate, by about 750 miles, while only slightly, it doesnt correspond with my previous service info and makes it look inaccurate/bad. I found they left the brake fluid resevoir cap loose sitting unscrewed into the resevoir, which was not part of the work they were to carry out, but worse than that, there appears to be a section of tubing cut from the bulkhead which appears newly cut, ie its a rubber tube with an exposed end and it isnt hardened, and it doesnt look like its meant to terminate this way. I'm trying to determine what tubing has been removed and if they did this with the intention of persuading me to leave the car with them for further work, whereupon they would return said tubing.

Basically its 2 tubes off the vacuum system which appear cut or have a connector missing and may be missing a connection to elsewhere, at the least it appears freshly cut, Im suspicious they seemed to think someone wouldnt notice and tried to brow beat them into more work despite paying out substantially for something else unrelated.
Im looking for advice on the specific part but will likely need an independant assessment of this, which is additional cost and hassle.

The thing is, I do routine services on this car and Ive never seen these exposed tubes like this and I have paid attention to the vacuum system before as I had intended to replace all hoses as a matter of course but couldnt locate them and then it went on the back burner, I find it unlikely a manufacturer would terminate two vacuum lines this way and as soon as I saw it I knew it was out of place.

Im trying to determine what is the best course of action to take, I intend to follow this through.

cerastes

Pictures

Tony Beetroot

They tried pulling a fast one, shame on them.

Atlantic Dawn

If they did that I would classify it as criminal damage.

PADRAIC.M

What kind of work had you authorised and what work exactly were they recommending? Main dealer?

cerastes

PADRAIC.M wrote: »

What kind of work had you authorised and what work exactly were they recommending? Main dealer?

Timing belt change, main dealer, they were recommending a host of work, I know the front pads are due to be changed but I want to measure the discs, they wanted to replace the turbo, I know its not fully functional but at €1600, pushing 1800 including diagnostic the claim, either think I'm mad or stupid, on top of which i believe its the servo/belllows thats not functional, notmthe tubo, 250 plus for a brake caliper and another 250 plus for pads and discs on the front.
I complained to customer care and have given them till Tuesday to respond, after that I'm making enquiries about how to proceed.

I dont mind them pointing out work they suggest or recommend, some of which I may have used them for, but, returning the car with a fault it didn't have before, either they took a part off intentionally, or they damaged it or forgot or didn't bother to replace it either way, if its with the view to drum up more business then I consider it a huge mistake as they seemed to expect me to not be able or willing to drive the car away, when I did I immediately noticed the brakes were ineffective.

dieselbug

I would be very slow to believe any garage, main dealer or otherwise would deliberately do anything to a customers car to create a fault and possibly leave it in a dangerous state.

There's no doubt their attention to detail was sloppy and their attitude even worse but to deliberatety leave a car out with "ineffective" brakes!! Sorry but I dont think so.

Sounds to me like they removed some vaccum tubing for testing and forget to replace it. They may have been measuring vaccum as part of the diagnosis of the turbo problem or connecting a vaccum pump.

If your brakes are ineffective you should not be driving the car and need to get them seen to by this garage or another one.

cerastes

dieselbug wrote: »

I would be very slow to believe any garage, main dealer or otherwise would deliberately do anything to a customers car to create a fault and possibly leave it in a dangerous state.

There's no doubt their attention to detail was sloppy and their attitude even worse but to deliberatety leave a car out with "ineffective" brakes!! Sorry but I dont think so.

Sounds to me like they removed some vaccum tubing for testing and forget to replace it. They may have been measuring vaccum as part of the diagnosis of the turbo problem or connecting a vaccum pump.

If your brakes are ineffective you should not be driving the car and need to get them seen to by this garage or another one.

I tend to think yes and Id prefer if that was the case, but they are supposed to be the experts, otherwise I could have gone to anyone, negligence isnt an excuse, neither is forgetting, its as bad if not worse than doing it intentionally.
I think they may have dropped or lowered the engine slightly to fit the timing belt as there are no marks on screws to suggest they removed panels or covers to fit the timing belt, at worst if thats the case maybe it pulled the line out, but I dont see why it appears cut? or disconnected or why it wasnt replaced. They were adamant they wanted to do other work and I feel they were expecting me to agree.

Tony Beetroot

Did they even fit the belt you would wonder?

cerastes

Tony Beetroot wrote: »

Did they even fit the belt you would wonder?

I did wonder, I flipped the cover and it looks slightly different and isnt running centrally like when I checked it about a month ago to ensure it wasnt frayed to hell, Im more concerned about the parts I cant see, like the water pump and the tensioner, but if that goes and is later discovered to not have been replaced, well they really will be up sh/t creek.

cerastes

After searching the net, looks like an inlet manifold solenoid is missing, or at least the y connector and the tubing to it, need to confirm where it is and what the inlet manifold solenoid opening/closing allows to happen.
In the least it tells me that the vacuum system which you would expect to be sealed except where it is designed to open/close is open and this means to me the vacuum pump/resevoir cannot maintain vacuum for repeated use of the brake.

cerastes

Found it!

I didnt even see it in the background in some of my original pictures as I didnt know what I was looking for and as I was looking downwards, I could have been involved in a crash, I havent tested the car yet, but Im adamant this was the problem, either intentional or not its unacceptable!

cerastes

Pictures today, checked old pictures and dont know why I didnt see it!
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I only found it as I found a schematic that shows a device called an inlet manifold sensor, that has a line, one of which goes to a Y connector.

I understand how this might have looked before about a complaining customer, but someone tell me I dont have them by the balls, I nearly put my son in this car, I still suspect intent, but negligence isnt acceptable.

Im off to test the car carefully!

cerastes

Picture I took yesterday, I didnt see it as I didnt know what I was looking for and was horrified when I found the pipes I thought were cut!
trying to calm down, im delighted and livid!
It was right in front of me, but I was looking down on it and was only when I located the inlet manifold solenoid ina schematic by someone else here, http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?p=4557771 that I realised what to try and look for! I thought they might have stolen the whole part and tubes or cut them out.

deleted that line, just a bit jubilant Id figured out their scam/incompetence

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cerastes

Im looking for recommendations for a solicitor in the west county Dublin area if anyone knows one, not kidding.

cerastes

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

If they did that I would classify it as criminal damage.

I agree,

dieselbug wrote: »

I would be very slow to believe any garage, main dealer or otherwise would deliberately do anything to a customers car to create a fault and possibly leave it in a dangerous state.

There's no doubt their attention to detail was sloppy and their attitude even worse but to deliberatety leave a car out with "ineffective" brakes!! Sorry but I dont think so.

Sounds to me like they removed some vaccum tubing for testing and forget to replace it. They may have been measuring vaccum as part of the diagnosis of the turbo problem or connecting a vaccum pump.

If your brakes are ineffective you should not be driving the car and need to get them seen to by this garage or another one.

I appreciate your reply, I wanted to think it was the most benign reason, but the way they went on about the brakes and safety when I knew they were safe driving down to them, it made me suspicious, I was in a rush to take the car as I had somewhere to go that evening and they let me go knowing that they either fcuked up or had disconnected this intentionally or negligently messed up and tried to let any consequences fall at my feet and my responsibility, in the event I was in a crash, they'd had it on paper and we had nearly had a barney about the receipt, they were hostile and threatening to the point of the service manager snatching their version of the receipt out of my hand.
I didnt know if I said it, I knew straight away moving off after I reconnected the fitting that the brakes were as they were on my journey down to them, they are perfect as they were before, repeated pressing of the brakes and there is plenty of braking where before it was hard and like no effort was being applied.

cerastes

dieselbug wrote: »

I would be very slow to believe any garage, main dealer or otherwise would deliberately do anything to a customers car to create a fault and possibly leave it in a dangerous state.

There's no doubt their attention to detail was sloppy and their attitude even worse but to deliberatety leave a car out with "ineffective" brakes!! Sorry but I dont think so.

Sounds to me like they removed some vaccum tubing for testing and forget to replace it. They may have been measuring vaccum as part of the diagnosis of the turbo problem or connecting a vaccum pump.

If your brakes are ineffective you should not be driving the car and need to get them seen to by this garage or another one.

I appreciate your reply and any future replies, I can see anyone reading this only has my information to go on and can come up with possible variations of why I might be a complaining customer, but they said that it was a free check when I was enquiring about prices, when I had already booked with them for the timing belt, they were at pains to point out that it was only a visual, neither did I authorise them to carry out any other work, not on the turbo or the brakes or anything else! only the timing belt.

mickdw

The timing belt would involve significant striping on many cars and as such ancillary items such as wiring connections, various hoses, air box etc will likely have been removed. It is therefore quite likely that the houses in question were disconnected as part of the job and simply not put back.
Either way, this is what they will say so trying to pin anything other than careless work on them will be a non runner. In addition, it is always claimed that brake function is retained if vacuum is lost only that much more brake force is needed. While this is correct, I've experienced vacuum loss and realistically you could never get enough pressure onto the pedal at speed to get any meaningful breaking. They will however use this to Claim that the brake hydraulic system was intact etc.
I would go back to them, see if they admit mistake and see what they will do for you. I don't see this being worth the headaches re solicitors unless to continue to be ass holes.

cerastes

mickdw wrote: »

The timing belt would involve significant striping on many cars and as such ancillary items such as wiring connections, various hoses, air box etc will likely have been removed. It is therefore quite likely that the houses in question were disconnected as part of the job and simply not put back.
Either way, this is what they will say so trying to pin anything other than careless work on them will be a non runner. In addition, it is always claimed that brake function is retained if vacuum is lost only that much more brake force is needed. While this is correct, I've experienced vacuum loss and realistically you could never get enough pressure onto the pedal at speed to get any meaningful breaking. They will however use this to Claim that the brake hydraulic system was intact etc.
I would go back to them, see if they admit mistake and see what they will do for you. I don't see this being worth the headaches re solicitors unless to continue to be ass holes.

Im still mad after having to resolve this myself, Im not mad at what you are saying, Im open to all replies, but I have to disagree.

Removed parts and items and not put them back? and thats the standard? simply not put back is not good enough, the brakes were ineffective. Ive reconnected the components and the difference is significant. Honestly I'll bring someone for a test drive and show them the difference but the difference is huge, especially as I was unprepared for it, given the brakes were like throwing out anchors before. The difference this little part being fitted correctly has made is massive.
edit (@00.30) I should add, however they did, whatever it was they did (supposedly my cars timing belt) little if anything appears to have been stripped, how they got the timing belt in I'm not certain, there appears to be little if any marks on anything that suggests bolts or clamps have been removed, a couple of small places where it might have occured but not enough to suggest doing the timing belt, Ive a couple of ideas how they might have done it, but it seems it would have been tight to do, probably tighter than it already is, which concerns me that if it was even done at all, was it done right.

It is careless work though, careless enough that could have resulted in a crash that involved me or my son who was intended to be with me or another 3rd party, what if that involved injury or loss of life?
I went to a main dealer to get quality, If they had any integrity they would considered they caused it during the timing belt repair and as the experts fixed it, if anything to show their level of service, fix their own faults and try get the loyalty of a new customer, instead I felt I was about to be gouged, and have any responsibility from them shirked. I could have gone to some back alley garage and gotten better than this, this cost hundreds of euros. I didnt attempt it myself as I didnt want to buy certain tools for a once off job and Ive no practical experience doing timing belts, it didnt seem worth the hassle, what looks very clear at least one type of tool they did not use, I may as well have done it myself if thats their effort. Nor did I get the job done to sell the car as has been suggested elsewhere, who gets a timing belt done, at a main dealers no less, only to sell the car??? maybe some, but I wanted it done there so it was right and lasted the duration of my expected ownership and use, which is as long as possible.

In addition? the brakes were ineffective after I got it back, this was after the first operation of the pedal, but I didnt twig that immediately. They carried out substantial work, if that required removing parts, they should have refitted them, all. I'll assist them with this, its called a checklist, they seem to need it and not have heard of one. Its not the only thing that makes it look like they did it in a rush though, how do I know they even did the pump or tensioner? and that they just hope or expect it lasts the two years warranty and fob me off? after this experience, its not unreasonable to question what I paid for or if its done right or worse if its done so bad it wont last.

The brake force is not effective without the vacuum, in my limited experience of that being a problem with this car which is only in the last few days since it was returned to me after being with the dealer for a seperate repair the difference is significant, after the first press, it was like it was spongy then going like a solid rubber block where there was little effect, it was frightening. The only way I managed to get around this while braking was pressing the brake and not releasing for a second press, after I realised that was happening, I also realised if I could rev the car braking would be slightly more effective which made me consider the servo or vacuum was leaking, but initially I thought they opened a brake line carelessly as they mentioned brake fluid in their report and I thought that maybe I was looking at air having entered the system so that threw me, so I first checked every hydraulic line from the master cylinder to the ABS and to every union I could see and to each wheel, with no apparent signs of having any tool used on unions that seemed to be ruled out other than the brake reservoir cap being loose.
It may vary from car to car, but any car Ive driven were you try exert braking force without the engine providing vacuum, there is a significant decrease in braking effort, sometimes useless.

Brake function will probably only be retained if vacuum is lost.... to a point, depending on how much vacuum there is, OR how big the hole is thats leaking vacuum, I'd have considered.

I dont know what you mean by not being able to get pressure on the brake pedal at any meaningful speed? Before this I could be doing any speed 0-80 and slam on the brakes hard, I havent tried that at most higher speeds as its not something I want to do or get into a situaton where I have to do, but especially the upper speeds even with ABS, its not something I want to test, Ive given a good stab at the brakes at lower speeds and the ABS pulses back through the pedal. It was ineffective after being returned to me, this was at any speed after the first press of the brake.

Ive fixed the issue, it looks suspicious, I wont say at worst, but at best its negligent, they were unapproachable already when I was there, I dont see how returning to them will achieve anything, the service manager is unapproachable? Im not sure to what end? I could have been in a serious accident in the last 2 days, Id planned to take my son away in that car and the person giving me a lift to go on their way. The way they went on, made me really suspicious, I thought they were exaggerating to hard sell me something else, they were too pushy about it and unhelpful when they could see I wasnt for turning on that. The thing is, if I didnt have a clue about mechanical stuff, Id have had a lot of money paid out for an expensive enough job to get back a car that was dangerous. What can they do for me now? I fixed the problem, on top of that their attitude was very poor, I cant see them being repentant now? and if they are what good is that to me? If I'd have killed someone they'd have washed their hands of it with their crappy report.

edit, Id already contacted their customer service number as soon as possible which was the next day, Friday, I gave them till Tuesday to reply, I'll make my own enquiries by then, if they dont reply or are unrepentant and come up with nothing other than sorry or worse deny it, but especially if they deny it, then I cant see how I have any option other than to proceed with taking some kind of action.

percy212

Get a solicitor. What they did was dangerous and could have caused harm to you. Even if it doesn't go to court they need a fright.

mickdw

I think you misunderstood most of my post.
I was basically highlighting what they will say in response to your issue.
Of course everything must be put back but I meant they will claim it was an error as opposed to a deliberate action to make you return for further work.
I was also agreeing with you in that the brakes will be hopeless without vacuum. I experienced it myself and while manufacturers will claim that the brake system is still there and that it just requires additional force to operate pedal, the reality is that you will not be able to get enough pressure through the pedal to make the brakes effective, certainly at speed the brake will be next to useless while you may stop the car at parking speeds.
I hope this clarifies my thoughts.

cerastes

mickdw wrote: »

I think you misunderstood most of my post.
I was basically highlighting what they will say in response to your issue.
Of course everything must be put back but I meant they will claim it was an error as opposed to a deliberate action to make you return for further work.
I was also agreeing with you in that the brakes will be hopeless without vacuum. I experienced it myself and while manufacturers will claim that the brake system is still there and that it just requires additional force to operate pedal, the reality is that you will not be able to get enough pressure through the pedal to make the brakes effective, certainly at speed the brake will be next to useless while you may stop the car at parking speeds.
I hope this clarifies my thoughts.

I thought you were saying what they might say, but probably as Im still fuming, I did think you were saying it in their favour, but I wasnt taking it personally.

I have to say, I did think you were saying braking without vacuum would be effective, which suprised me as Ive seen your posts in motors before and you seem very well informed. Im relieved to see I misread that.

It does clarify things, thanks.

greasepalm

can i ask if hoses were not removed and lowering of engine happened could they come apart or is there plenty of free play with those hoses,if tb was to be replaced covers are usually removed and tensioner/guides/pump also changed. how were they?

cerastes

greasepalm wrote: »

can i ask if hoses were not removed and lowering of engine happened could they come apart or is there plenty of free play with those hoses,if tb was to be replaced covers are usually removed and tensioner/guides/pump also changed. how were they?

Not being funny, but I dont know, I wasnt there, I dont know if it was lowered or if so by how much, Im not absolutely certain but I cant see that method being the laid down practice? it certainly not the haynes method, Id have to spend time searching online to see what a manufacturer workshop manual might say.
It seems theres a bit of play but it probably depends on how much distance was involved? too much seems to strain other stuff unnecessarily that seems not to have been disconnected? or why other things didnt come unplugged from clips? I dont see how that would excuse not checking parts if it was done that way? I can kind of see how it might be missed by looking at it as I couldnt see it until I went looking for vac lines after finding a specific schematic online, not that thats an excuse as if they are doing any dropping as a shortcut then it wont be in any checklist to check items, hence why In my opinion shortcuts leads to problems and are only a quick fix to something you can attend to again properly later, thats not applicable in this case as they never intend to see this again, and the problem is it was dumped in my lap.

edit, worse than I left it, with a bit of a feeling wham bam thanks for the money but fcuk you we didnt even bother our holes doing it right

From what I can see, there arent any marks on screws securing covers to the necessary side of the engine, everything looks equally dirty and it wasnt raining since, so no new grime applied while driving.

How were they what? if you mean changed? makes me wonder,
maybe they were, if so, Im concerned with what seems to be other shortcuts if it was done, was it done right and well enough.

seagull

If this was at a main dealer, it might be worth contacting the manufacturer directly if you get no satisfaction from the dealer.

cerastes

seagull wrote: »

If this was at a main dealer, it might be worth contacting the manufacturer directly if you get no satisfaction from the dealer.

This is my concern regarding not getting satisfaction, i dont want to have to take it further and let the dealer away this, i have given and am giving them an opportunity to do something about it but as of yet have not heard back from them, but I was told on the phone by the overall customer service that they did not believe it and that I had to return to the garage to the customer service there to resolve any issues, the thing is I was left having to find and resolve the problem myself, and it is now fixed and low and behold the customer service are the exact same people dealing with it as before and even before they had any opportunity to assess what had occured, I was told on the phone they wouldnt do anything about it after asking what are they going to do about it, I was told "I am going to do nothing" or words to that effect, I have the whole thing recorded and I'll be releasing it to a solicitor who I didnt want to get involved if they dont give me satisfaction and then I'll make public the information and name them after its all done.

If they think I'm just going to accept being ignored after leaving my brakes in the condition they did they're kidding themselves. The service manager had said it a number of times on the phone," but we told you your brakes weren't safe before you left" either not realising it was them that made them unsafe or where they had done it with a view to me not taking the car away as they knew how the brakes would function and either have me leave it with them for more work as the sales person didnt even want me to take the car away or even bother to return to the dealership to collect I and take the report of claimed problems, but wanted to give it to me on the phone.
Or after I was taking the car for me to have me to drive back to them with my cap in hand after disputing their unsafe brake claims as i knew it was fine on the drive down to them, including all the time id ever owned it, they are the best brakes id ever had on a car and the only car ive owned with ABS.
The thing is they covered themselves by saying it was a safety issue, so had I been involved in an accident I'm wondering who would have checked the car if I reported the brakes were different, ie hugely inferior to delivering it to them for separate work?
I think I may have been up a creek without a paddle as I would still have considered to be responsible for driving it but an investigation would have shown the fault soon after maintenance evn though it was unrelated and I cannot see how they would not have liability.
Ie saved my own neck by fixing this and also theirs.

I'm waiting for this response till tomorrow, if I get none I have no option to follow up with a solicitor as I have been fobbd off by the overall customer care and think I will by the garage too.

martinr5232

Why didnt you bring the car back straight away when you noticed the brakes were bad on it ??

cerastes

martinr5232 wrote: »

Why didnt you bring the car back straight away when you noticed the brakes were bad on it ??

Because we already had a head to head about the receipt and I disputed there was even an issue with the brakes, they were saying it was a safety issue and it looked to me they were trying to give me a hard sell to do all this other work for something which was not an issue before they had it!
it was in their care and of their doing, I was already running late and wasnt happy how it had already been handled.
In hindsight I probably should have turned around and left the car and demanded them to fix whatever it was they had broken, but aside from what had already occured I just didnt think they would,on top of that I then had no lift out of there as I know the person that dropped me down doesnt answer their phone while driving, so unless I could flag them down before returning I would be stuck!
It would only have convinced the garage they were right, added to that how it was responded when I did complain doesnt convince me they would have done anything.

I did ring the following day promptly and make a complaint to the overall customer care with the view to getting it resolved, and it got pushed back against, at this point I've contacted them a few times and they have contacted me back, initially the response was not satisfactory as far as I am concerned as it seemed to undermine the whole point of going back to the dealer to resolve the complaint when it was the same people who id expressed my dissatisfaction with in the first place and who subsequently told me they would do nothing about it when I offered them to resolve the problem.
So if they were simply going to refute everything and do nothing about it, I can see had a I returned originally they would have just said, we told you so, regardless of it being them that created the problem.

seagull

My suggestion was to contact the manufacturer, and let them know that one of their main dealers had done a less than stellar job. They tend to get unhappy when that happens.

cerastes

I contacted the customer Care of the dealer network and they fobbed me off with the line of they don't believe it's possible and the dealers are gmddpdmdamt garages under the brand name, how do I contact the manufacturer at a point I'm dealing with someone connected at a point presumably outside Ireland? I think I'll still send an email restarting who the head of customer Care in Ireland reports to as he rang me and told me they are all just independent dealers and he has no say in what they do, what I'm looking for is a workshop manual describing how to carry out the task and anything that outlines that any other methods are not allowed.

biko

cerastes wrote: »

Im looking for recommendations for a solicitor in the west county Dublin area if anyone knows one, not kidding.

Recommendations by PM.
Thread closed because of legal route.