New train service: AM Cork-Dublin non-stop express

LXFlyer

The Cork-Dublin non-stop express is being introduced on Monday next 25 May departing Cork at 06:15, and arriving at Dublin Heuston at 08:30.

At the same time the 06:00 Cork-Dublin service will be advanced to 05:55 and will be accelerated to 2 hours 25 minutes, with three stops (Mallow, Charleville and Limerick Junction).

kc56

lxflyer wrote: »

The Cork-Dublin non-stop express is being introduced on Monday next 25 May departing Cork at 06:15, and arriving at Dublin Heuston at 08:30.

At the same time the 06:00 Cork-Dublin service will be advanced to 05:55 and will be accelerated to 2 hours 25 minutes, with three stops (Mallow, Charleville and Limerick Junction).

And the 0515 Westport is deferred to 0525 also arriving at 0830 to make room for the 05:55. Probably a slight error there as 30min Kildare-Heuston with a stop in Newbridge is a bit optimistic.

end of the road

there is no need for those services to stop in Newbridge. stops between kildare and dublin should be left to the commuter services with kildare for waterford, portarlington for galway/westport, port laoise for cork/limerick/tralee, being the interchange. make some actual use for the portlaoise commuter service rather then it being a glorified depot run

Jamie2k9

kc56 wrote: »

And the 0515 Westport is deferred to 0525 also arriving at 0830 to make room for the 05:55. Probably a slight error there as 30min Kildare-Heuston with a stop in Newbridge is a bit optimistic.

Not at all, 30 minutes is more than enough time.

kc56

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Not at all, 30 minutes is more than enough time.

They're eating into the padding! But it's doable in 30 min with no delays.

Jamie2k9

kc56 wrote: »

They're eating into the padding! But it's doable in 30 min with no delays.

08.00 Kildare, 08.05 Newbridge, 08.25 Dublin - the new 06.15 will overtake at Kildare so suspect that extra 5 minutes will be needed quiet a lot while the 05.55 will have to pass through Portarlington ahead of the 05.25.

The higher speeds should happen soon so will help if needed.

kc56

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

08.00 Kildare, 08.05 Newbridge, 08.25 Dublin - the new 06.15 will overtake at Kildare so suspect that extra 5 minutes will be needed quiet a lot while the 05.55 will have to pass through Portarlington ahead of the 05.25.

The higher speeds should happen soon so will help if needed.

Non-stop Kildare-Heuston is about 25 mins; can't see 25 min with a Newbridge stop. If the 0615 overtakes the 0525 at Kildare, it must go though Kildare before 0800, say 0755 but then it should reach Heuston at 0820. Wait a minute, that's the timing for the 0555! More likely is that the 0615 runs after the 0525 and they arrive in Heuston in tandem - about 3 mins apart. More tweaking of the timing will appear.

Jamie2k9

kc56 wrote: »

Non-stop Kildare-Heuston is about 25 mins; can't see 25 min with a Newbridge stop. If the 0615 overtakes the 0525 at Kildare, it must go though Kildare before 0800, say 0755 but then it should reach Heuston at 0820. Wait a minute, that's the timing for the 0555! More likely is that the 0615 runs after the 0525 and they arrive in Heuston in tandem - about 3 mins apart. More tweaking of the timing will appear.

I agree, not sure the 06.15 is very doable currently but from the current proposed schedule the: 05.55 should pass Portarlington at 07.45 (Westport @ 07.47) while the 06.15 should be start tailing the Westport train through Portarlington at 07.50 and pass Kildare at 08.00, only need around 90-120 seconds gap so Westport should be departing no lather than 08.02 but everything would need to be prefect for it to happen.

If it doesn't work out they will likely hold the Westport outside Portarlington until both Cork services pass.

monument

I've started a new thread to make the change in discussion more apparent to more people. The old thread is here.

Carawaystick

And yet, the first train from Dublin to Cork will arrive in at twenty five to ten...

end of the road

Carawaystick wrote: »

And yet, the first train from Dublin to Cork will arrive in at twenty five to ten...

yeah, not good in this day and age. there needs to be an early morning service to belfast and cork. and a radical idea, but maybe test the market for the other cities, waterford galway/limerick? all though that would be to radical and nobody is going to pay for it so forget it.

LXFlyer

Carawaystick wrote: »

And yet, the first train from Dublin to Cork will arrive in at twenty five to ten...

The focus right now is on the direction of peak traffic flow which is to Dublin, and delivering a headline business express.

A new timetable will ultimately be needed for Heuston operations to better balance out the Dublin/Cork services, including an earlier service from Dublin, and also to eliminate commuter stops from Intercity services and separate the two out where necessary.

Jamie2k9

lxflyer wrote: »

The focus right now is on the direction of peak traffic flow which is to Dublin, and delivering a headline business express.

A new timetable will ultimately be needed for Heuston operations to better balance out the Dublin/Cork services, including an earlier service from Dublin, and also to eliminate commuter stops from Intercity services and separate the two out where necessary.

Not going to happen and it would take longer for IC if all Commuter stops were removed!

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Not going to happen and it would take longer for IC if all Commuter stops were removed!

I beg to differ - it's perfectly possible to recast the timetable.

Jamie2k9

lxflyer wrote: »

I beg to differ - it's perfectly possible to recast the timetable.

No overly doable, some improvements could be made but it's not practical and we will return rubbish of previous years or just look at the Northern Commuter.

The only realistic way I could see something is all express from Nass to Dublin and leave a shuttle for Hazelhatch branch.

IE will lose lots of revenue if they were to fully go commuter and something which by far trumps most IC revenue I suspect.

All routes have an express with no commuter stops, the earliest departure serves all commuter stops and takes I can't see major issues with this and then the latest morning departure serve one commuter stop between Galway/Limerick/Waterford.

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

No overly doable, some improvements could be made but it's not practical and we will return rubbish of previous years or just look at the Northern Commuter.

The only realistic way I could see something is all express from Nass to Dublin and leave a shuttle for Hazelhatch branch.

IE will lose lots of revenue if they were to fully go commuter and something which by far trumps most IC revenue I suspect.

All routes have an express with no commuter stops, the earliest departure serves all commuter stops and takes I can't see major issues with this and then the latest morning departure serve one commuter stop between Galway/Limerick/Waterford.

Well we will have to agree to differ. It's perfectly possible to come up with a timetable that maximises the use of the four track facility and eliminates unnecessary stops that dilute the Intercity brand.

With a bit of imagination and thinking outside the box a better timetable that reflects the rising passenger numbers can be delivered.

Jamie2k9

lxflyer wrote: »

Well we will have to agree to differ. It's perfectly possible to come up with a timetable that maximises the use of the four track facility and eliminates unnecessary stops that dilute the Intercity brand.

With a bit of imagination and thinking outside the box a better timetable that reflects the rising passenger numbers can be delivered.

It is however the Portarlington-Halelhatch once it becomes 100 you will encounter issues with commute trains stopping every 5 minutes. The current schedule has gaps for a reason and I'm sure you will agree are a major reason for the generally reliable performance of it.

end of the road

lxflyer wrote: »

a bit of imagination and thinking outside the box

are irish rail capible of those?

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

It is however the Portarlington-Halelhatch once it becomes 100 you will encounter issues with commute trains stopping every 5 minutes. The current schedule has gaps for a reason and I'm sure you will agree are a major reason for the generally reliable performance of it.

thats why the KRP needs to be finished off as soon as funds allow. it won't solve everything but it will help a bit surely. as i've stated before there needs to be 1 interchange for the inter city services once they come off their "branch" if you will. so portlaoise for cork/limerick/tralee, portarlington for galway/westport, kildare for waterford. of course in an ideal world the commuters would simply have run to kildare and the interchange for all would be there but as were stuck with portlaoise because of the depot well i guess something like what i suggested might be an option

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

It is however the Portarlington-Halelhatch once it becomes 100 you will encounter issues with commute trains stopping every 5 minutes. The current schedule has gaps for a reason and I'm sure you will agree are a major reason for the generally reliable performance of it.

I'm well aware of how trains are pathed. I don't really need that to be explained to me at this stage.


But there are opportunities to improve the current timetable, as unfortunately stops were added on certain trains where they should not be.


Who said anything about commuter trains stopping every 5 minutes? That doesn't happen nor will it.

kc56

end of the road wrote: »

of course in an ideal world the commuters would simply have run to kildare and the interchange for all would be there but as were stuck with portlaoise because of the depot well i guess something like what i suggested might be an option

Prior to the 2013 timetable, all commuter runs ended at Newbridge or Kildare. It was extended to Portlaoise, not because of the depot, but to avoid Cork trains having to serve stations between Portlaoise and Heuston. There was a bonus for Kildare/Monasterevin/Portarlingtion as well achieving an hourly service all day.

Also in this scenario you'd need at least a commuter service every 30 mins for the peaks and that would be a significant reduction in service on present levels both in terms of frequency and speed. Kildare is not suitable for that level of service of terminating commuter services as it does not have a turn-back platform or even a convenient siding.

end of the road

kc56 wrote: »

Prior to the 2013 timetable, all commuter runs ended at Newbridge or Kildare. It was extended to Portlaoise, not because of the depot, but to avoid Cork trains having to serve stations between Portlaoise and Heuston. There was a bonus for Kildare/Monasterevin/Portarlingtion as well achieving an hourly service all day.

ah come on. of course the depot was part of the reason for the extension.. those services could have been done by returning the direct limerick and tralees which would be alternating. stations like thurles portlaoise and stations to hh would support these. run shuttles from hh to heuston over the 4 track section using the proper stock. after all 22s are used where IE feels like it so may as well have ran them long distance like they are designed for and give tralee and limerick back their direct service. it wouldn't have made much difference to connolly for example which loses anyway. doing that meant corks could have run non stop to lj, giving our second city a proper fast inter city service. but now there is a way out of the way depot to consider, there isn't much riggle room as it has to be considered.

kc56 wrote: »

Also in this scenario you'd need at least a commuter service every 30 mins for the peaks and that would be a significant reduction in service on present levels both in terms of frequency and speed. Kildare is not suitable for that level of service of terminating commuter services as it does not have a turn-back platform or even a convenient siding.

at the moment. when funding allows finish KRP and implement these and such issues should no longer be an issue. infact, finishing it off should be done before any use of the phoenix park tunnel happens, all though this is ireland.

LXFlyer

Look you solve the issue by a mix of slow (stopping) trains, semi-fasts, and fasts.

The infrastructure is there for that.

But there are specific trains that are stopping at certain stations that really they shouldn't be.

Going forward for example, you could see more middle distance peak trains going non-stop between Hazelhatch and Heuston with a dedicated stopping service between those stations, and then serving the stations to Portlaoise or Athlone for example.

The principal Dublin/Galway evening service previously went non-stop to Athlone and then served Ballinasloe, Athenry and Galway. That train (at 16:30) now has three stops before Athlone - maybe a stopping service should run ahead of it?

Similarly should the 07:10 express from Waterford stop at Newbridge? I don't believe it should.

An Intercity railway needs headline fast trains, and at the same time a properly designed commuter network.

The off-peak pattern should be hourly stopping services to Portlaoise, feeding into Waterford trains at Kildare, Galway trains at Portarlington and Cork trains at Portlaoise. That way you get speeds up on the long distance services and a feeder service into them from intermediate stations.

Suggesting stopping it any earlier misses the whole point of the service.

end of the road

end of the road wrote: »

there is no need for those services to stop in Newbridge. stops between kildare and dublin should be left to the commuter services with kildare for waterford, portarlington for galway/westport, port laoise for cork/limerick/tralee, being the interchange. make some actual use for the portlaoise commuter service rather then it being a glorified depot run

You're forgetting that a lot of the commuter trains start at Newbridge and that the train from Athlone stops to connect to the commuter train for people who don't want to go all the way to Heuston (like me).

end of the road

Deleted User wrote: »

You're forgetting that a lot of the commuter trains start at Newbridge and that the train from Athlone stops to connect to the commuter train for people who don't want to go all the way to Heuston (like me).

as maybe, but fast running of intercity services needs to happen, so therefore having the interchanges at portlaoise portarlington and kildare are the best way, with any newbridge only services operating between. you still wouldn't have to go all the way into heuston

end of the road

end of the road wrote: »

as maybe, but fast running of intercity services needs to happen, so therefore having the interchanges at portlaoise portarlington and kildare are the best way, with any newbridge only services operating between. you still wouldn't have to go all the way into heuston

I would prefer there to be a more frequent service between Heuston and the local commuter stations as far as celbridge, to avoid arriving at Heuston and having to wait over 40 minutes to go back to a station I passed at 80mph only 4 miles before Heuston. Made all the worse by seeing the train that would stop at Park West leave the platform as I arrive.

Getting a fast train to Heuston and then a slow one back to Park West is much quicker than changing at Portarlington and crawling all the way in, they're just not frequent enough

end of the road

Deleted User wrote: »

I would prefer there to be a more frequent service between Heuston and the local commuter stations as far as celbridge, to avoid arriving at Heuston and having to wait over 40 minutes to go back to a station I passed at 80mph only 4 miles before Heuston. Made all the worse by seeing the train that would stop at Park West leave the platform as I arrive.

Getting a fast train to Heuston and then a slow one back to Park West is much quicker than changing at Portarlington and crawling all the way in, they're just not frequent enough

the problem is though the long distance services need to be speeded up, and capacity for a couple of those services is an issue. sadly this means stops within the dublin area may have to go. its not ideal but unless quad tracking is extended out as far as possible and more stock bought, this may be the only option. in an ideal world there would be services to athlone only along with the portlaoise services and athy/carlow in the peaks taking stops and pressure off the others but with the constraints the tracks and the amount of stock we have such services aren't really possible sadly

There is only one very short section of two track line between Park West and Heuston and most of the rest is three track, we're only talking about one extra train (shuttle service) in each direction an hour.

Laying the third track in the twin track section would be the ideal solution though.

end of the road

Deleted User wrote: »

There is only one very short section of two track line between Park West and Heuston and most of the rest is three track, we're only talking about one extra train (shuttle service) in each direction an hour.

Laying the third track in the twin track section would be the ideal solution though.

yes the 3/4 tracking needs to be done as far as possible but nobody wants to fund it at the moment. IE have stock stored but nobody wants to pay to sort it out and get it back into traffic, and they wouldn't use it on the hh dublin section anyway or even the whole KRP if it was ever finished.

monument

Non-stop express train from Cork to Dublin
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/non-stop-express-train-from-cork-to-dublin-332158.html