Costs awarded to me

BeardyDevoy

I would appreciate some legal advice regarding costs. I was in the district court today. I cannot afford a solicitor and went on my own. When the case came up I went to the front. The judge listened to the other solicitor and then asked for my side of the story. I explained my position and the judge then gave the solicitor a serious dressing down for waisting court time and proceeded to dismiss the case and awarded costs to me.
I waited around for a while and then went home (very relieved). My question is what is the story with the costs. Do I send a bill to the court or what do I do next.

Mr. Incognito

If you represented yourself you have no legal costs

Fred Swanson

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Mr. Incognito

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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The Supreme Court has held that private expenditure of labour and trouble by lay litigants is not recoverable and cannot be measured by the courts; only legal costs can be measured and only solicitors who are on record for the litigant: Dawson v Irish Brokers Association [2002 SC] 2 ILRM 210.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/lay-litigants-forced-into-actions-cannot-recover-costs-court-rules-1.1056579

Nope.

The_Minister

This is not legal advice, cause I've no idea what happened, but, from what you've posted:

The legal costs were awarded to you against the other side - the court doesn't pay your costs and neither does the solicitor, the other party does.

What that costs order entailed sepends on the situation (is the matter finished, or is it adjourned to another day etc).

Since you didn't hire a solicitor (if it was a simple matter of you turning up and it being obviously flawed and thrown out, you probably might have been able to get one on favourable terms), then you will have little in the way of costs.

I can't remember all of the non-legal fees costs categories, but you would be able to claim back things like stamp duty on affidavits etc. It won't be a large amount.

BeardyDevoy

The case was dismissed and as far as I understood that is the end of the matter. I have lost a days pay and incurred travel costs after being accused in the wrong. Is it not the case that if I had been found to be in the wrong, the other sides costs would have been awarded against me. I feel that I am entitled to recover my own personal costs in this case!
My original question was " who do I present my bill of costs to for payment" . If I had engaged a solicitor and had won my costs, who would he present his costs to?

Fred Swanson

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Peregrinus

BeardyDevoy wrote: »

The case was dismissed and as far as I understood that is the end of the matter. I have lost a days pay and incurred travel costs after being accused in the wrong. Is it not the case that if I had been found to be in the wrong, the other sides costs would have been awarded against me. I feel that I am entitled to recover my own personal costs in this case!

You may feel that you are entitled but, sadly, feeling that you are entitled to something is not the same as actually being entitled to it.

Had the other side won and costs been awarded against you, you would have had to pay (part of) their legal cost - court fees, lawyer's bills, etc - but not their loss of wages for attending the court, personal travel expenses and so forth. And this works both ways; now that costs have been awarded to you, you can recover your expenditure on court fees, lawyer's bills, etc but not your travel or loss of wages. As it happens, you didn't incur any lawyer's bill, and you can't claim for a cost you haven't incurred. So your claimable costs are likely to be very small.

BeardyDevoy wrote: »

My original question was " who do I present my bill of costs to for payment" . If I had engaged a solicitor and had won my costs, who would he present his costs to?

You present your bill of costs to the lawyers for the party against whom costs were awarded. If they are not happy with the bill, they are entitled to ask you to have it checked independently. If you attempt to charge for your own time or loss of wages, they will certainly ask for this.

CIARAN_BOYLE

BeardyDevoy wrote: »

The case was dismissed and as far as I understood that is the end of the matter. I have lost a days pay and incurred travel costs after being accused in the wrong. Is it not the case that if I had been found to be in the wrong, the other sides costs would have been awarded against me. I feel that I am entitled to recover my own personal costs

except you are not, here have a supreme court judgement on the matter as previously provided by our own mr. incognito.

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

The Supreme Court has held that private expenditure of labour and trouble by lay litigants is not recoverable and cannot be measured by the courts; only legal costs can be measured and only solicitors who are on record for the litigant: Dawson v Irish Brokers Association [2002 SC] 2 ILRM 210.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/lay-litigants-forced-into-actions-cannot-recover-costs-court-rules-1.1056579

NUTLEY BOY

Dawson is a rough decision.

Should Op not compile a list of outlays like subsistence, loss of earnings and the like and just send it and see what happens.

Peregrinus

Only if he likes wasting his time. And by all accounts he has already devoted more time than he wants to this dispute.

If he does send in such a demand, the other side will ask him to go and get it "taxed". (Nothing to do with tax in the ordinary sense; lawyer-speak for getting it independently reviewed and getting a ruling on whether the costs demanded are legitimately payable.) They can legitimately decline to pay until the bill has been taxed. If the bill of costs is reduced on taxation - and it certainly will be - the the OP will have to pay the costs of taxation. This would not be a good outcome.

The_Minister

Peregrinus wrote: »

Only if he likes wasting his time. And by all accounts he has already devoted more time than he wants to this dispute.

If he does send in such a demand, the other side will ask him to go and get it "taxed". (Nothing to do with tax in the ordinary sense; lawyer-speak for getting it independently reviewed and getting a ruling on whether the costs demanded are legitimately payable.) They can legitimately decline to pay until the bill has been taxed. If the bill of costs is reduced on taxation - and it certainly will be - the the OP will have to pay the costs of taxation. This would not be a good outcome.

You're assuming he's entitled to nothing as a lay litigant; that, AFAIU, is not correct.
He cannot get payment for his time wasted, but he may have recoverable outlays, such as filing fees.

Peregrinus

The_Minister wrote: »

You're assuming he's entitled to nothing as a lay litigant; that, AFAIU, is not correct.
He cannot get payment for his time wasted, but he may have recoverable outlays, such as filing fees.

I'm not assuming he's entitled to nothing. I'm assuming he's only entitled to court fees and the like, which will be much less than the bill of costs that Nutley Boy is suggesting he should put in.

Ken.

Just wondering,
Considering the judge's comments could the OP sue the other side (or the solicitor representing them) for damages for wasting his/her time?.

If s/he is allowed sue could they call the judge from this case?

Mr. Incognito

ken wrote: »

Just wondering,
Considering the judge's comments could the OP sue the other side (or the solicitor representing them) for damages for wasting his/her time?.

If s/he is allowed sue could they call the judge from this case?

No.

The punishment for frivolous actions is costs awarded against you. They have to pay their own costs, and if he had hired representation, his too.

That would be substantial. As it is- they are on the hook for their own costs only.

That's your choice as a lay litigant.

The_Minister

The_Minister wrote: »

You're assuming he's entitled to nothing as a lay litigant; that, AFAIU, is not correct.
He cannot get payment for his time wasted, but he may have recoverable outlays, such as filing fees.

I think what he's implying is that the costs awarded against him in the taxation process will be higher than the costs awarded in his favour in the litigation

AndonHandon

I would send travel expenses and loss of earnings in a bill to the other side's solicitor with a cover letter. See what they say.

AndonHandon

AndonHandon wrote: »

I would send travel expenses and loss of earnings in a bill to the other side's solicitor with a cover letter. See what they say.

Let me save you the cost of a stamp.

They'll say no.

Peregrinus

ken wrote: »

Just wondering,
Considering the judge's comments could the OP sue the other side (or the solicitor representing them) for damages for wasting his/her time?.

If s/he is allowed sue could they call the judge from this case?

He can't sue at this point. Citizens have a right of access to the courts, so the courts are very, very slow to penalise people for taking their disputes to court.

In theory, he could possibly have raised the issue in the orginal proceedings, not only denying that he had breached any duty or owed any money, but asking the court to rule that bringing the action was an abuse of process, and asking the court to sanction the plaintiffs for bringing the action at all. But, because of the constitutional right just mentioned, it's wildly unlikely that the court would have agreed; it would require extraordinary facts. "Making an ill-judged decision to bring a claim that was never likely to succeed" wouldn't cut it. And, even if the court did sanction the plaintiffs for abuse of process, it's unlikely that the sanction would take the form of any kind of compensation to the defendant for his loss of time and earnings.

Mr. Incognito

AndonHandon wrote: »

I would send travel expenses and loss of earnings in a bill to the other side's solicitor with a cover letter. See what they say.

How many times do people have to be told no.

This is a solicitors job to know these things.

amen

of topic a little but what happens if a solicitor represents themselves?

are those costs recoverable?

K.Flyer

Not wanting to sound ironic, but if o.p. is not too happy with the answers here, maybe they should go and have a chat with a solicitor about it.

Peregrinus

No. "No costs other than actual and necessary outlay shall be allowed or awarded to a party who conducts his or her own case. "

That's from the District Court rules, but I'm pretty sure that there are similar provisions in the rules of the other courts.

"Actual and necessary outlays" are sums that you actually had to pay - not opportunities forgone, like lost wages; not things that you found it convenient to pay, like the cost of your lunch on the day you spent in court; not the notional value of services that you rendered to yourself, if you yourself are a lawyer. They are pretty much confined to court fees, expenses that you were required to pay to the witnesses you called, etc.

BeardyDevoy

Hi All, Thanks for your responses. Just to update you all, I received a written judgement from the Court, signed by the Judge dismissing the case and awarding me €350 in costs. i have sent a copy of the judgement to the Solicitor and await their response. To say I am delighted is an understatement. I will keep you updated.

Full Marx

please do.

BabySlam

BeardyDevoy wrote: »

Hi All, Thanks for your responses. Just to update you all, I received a written judgement from the Court, signed by the Judge dismissing the case and awarding me €350 in costs. i have sent a copy of the judgement to the Solicitor and await their response. To say I am delighted is an understatement. I will keep you updated.

A long time ago, a friend of mine was awarded 100 pounds in similar circumstances, to cover loss of a day at work and travel I think. It was paid promptly (case was dismissed).

Donegalforever

I would suggest that you make enquiries from one of the Citizens Information offices - they should have the necessary information and if not they are in a position to find it out.

Also you could seek out the District Court Clerk who I think would be willing to tell you if you are entitled to claim expenses in the circumstances. I am of the opinion that you should be able to claim, but I am not a solicitor.

Fred Swanson

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