Why is there no documentary that shows you how to train?

rom

I was one of them. But we all see people day in day out training hard and very hard at that and getting nowhere when you are trotting along doing an easy run.

I suppose I am wondering why there isn't a documentary out there with cartoons and nice charts like An Inconvenient Truth/Super size me that explains is in very simple terms on how to train for distance running. Its not rocket science but it is a eureka moment for many people when they find out that ever run is not a dress rehearsal for the race.

Like I felt I trained harder for my first marathon than my last.

libelula

I'd give my firstborn child for something like that! I'm not running all that long (4-5 yrs) and I've my head light reading half the internet and trying to figure out what's what out there.

average_runner

rom wrote: »

I was one of them. But we all see people day in day out training hard and very hard at that and getting nowhere when you are trotting along doing an easy run.

I suppose I am wondering why there isn't a documentary out there with cartoons and nice charts like An Inconvenient Truth/Super size me that explains is in very simple terms on how to train for distance running. Its not rocket science but it is a eureka moment for many people when they find out that ever run is not a dress rehearsal for the race.

Like I felt I trained harder for my first marathon than my last.

You need to understand your own body and what works for it. No one plan works for everyone. After awhile you will come up with a plan that will work

Murph_D

As someone with a background in media production, I would hazard a guess that the reason there is no such documentary is that there is virtually no chance that it would recoup its production costs.

Dubgal72

A club would fulfil the same function in a more personal way surely?

rom

Dubgal72 wrote: »

A club would fulfil the same function in a more personal way surely?

I would have to say I disagree.

Dubgal72

rom wrote: »

I would have to say I disagree.

Sounds like you haven't had a great club experience? I suppose it's all subjective to a certain extent but I regularly hear very sound, tried and tested, advice being given out to runners of all athletic ability at my club.

rom

Dubgal72 wrote: »

Sounds like you haven't had a great club experience? I suppose it's all subjective to a certain extent but I regularly hear very sound, tried and tested, advice being given out to runners of all athletic ability at my club.

tbh many at my level or better at the club feel the same. Its a shame as there are some excellent older members who know everything about training that I would rather listen to then someone pulling sessions out of a hat on a weekly basis.

Dubgal72

rom wrote: »

tbh many at my level or better at the club feel the same. Its a shame as there are some excellent older members who know everything about training that I would rather listen to then someone pulling sessions out of a hat on a weekly basis.

So what I'm hearing is that you don't have confidence in the session leader each week? And/or there is no obvious progression in the schedule?
From what I gather, you're at a handy enough standard (congrats on London btw ) so you've obviously learned from your trials and tribulations along the way. Have you thought about a coaching course? Or have you thought about approaching any of the older members and asking them for help with creating a schedule for your next goal?
Perhaps the session leader has some method in his/her madness and just needs to be asked or is it that you need something more tailored over a catch-all 'whoever turns up' session?

I get what you're saying about the documentary but I'm always going to be on the club/personal touch side cos I guess that's what I cut my teeth on.

PaulieC

Seeing what's going on in the running "knowledge" thread, there would seem to be no one way of training that everyone (anyone?) is going to agree on.

Dubgal72

rom wrote: »

tbh many at my level or better at the club feel the same. Its a shame as there are some excellent older members who know everything about training that I would rather listen to then someone pulling sessions out of a hat on a weekly basis.

PaulieC wrote: »

Seeing what's going on in the running "knowledge" thread, there would seem to be no one way of training that everyone (anyone?) is going to agree on.

That's the beauty of the (knowledgeable and experienced) personal touch. You can't beat personal, weekly feedback and if the person is knowledgeable enough, they'll tweak and adjust as the weeks progress. I agree with Rom, you can't beat older and experienced runners.

rom

Dubgal72 wrote: »

So what I'm hearing is that you don't have confidence in the session leader each week? And/or there is no obvious progression in the schedule?
From what I gather, you're at a handy enough standard (congrats on London btw ) so you've obviously learned from your trials and tribulations along the way. Have you thought about a coaching course? Or have you thought about approaching any of the older members and asking them for help with creating a schedule for your next goal?
Perhaps the session leader has some method in his/her madness and just needs to be asked or is it that you need something more tailored over a catch-all 'whoever turns up' session?

I get what you're saying about the documentary but I'm always going to be on the club/personal touch side cos I guess that's what I cut my teeth on.

I have done that and am getting help great help. Ok so I mean simple things like a long run should be much slower than marathon pace when your new to the sport is something that is not portrayed.

I suppose I am just not seeing gains that I would expect from those who attend these sessions.

Saying that I trained with another club last year for a bit (couldn't make the sessions due to working shift) but I learned probably more in 2/3 months than 2 years with the other club. Is seems the club I am a member of have many great older runners but they take a back seat and don't pass on the wisdom which is a shame.

libelula

rom wrote: »

Saying that I trained with another club last year for a bit (couldn't make the sessions due to working shift) but I learned probably more in 2/3 months than 2 years with the other club. Is seems the club I am a member of have many great older runners but they take a back seat and don't pass on the wisdom which is a shame.

Same experience here, and it's the reason I don't think I'll be going back to my club sessions unfortunately.
I learned most of what I did (and was very grateful for) from fellow runners in my group and from my own research. I'd say I could count on one hand the amount of times I've gotten feedback/advice from a coach there. It's sad really, and a lot of runners there seem to have outside coaches that they pay heavily for, and the club sessions are as much a group run as anything else.

That said, I'm sure the fast runners get a fair bit of coaching, maybe I just needed to run faster to hit that level :pac:

rovers_runner

It never fails to amuse me seeing people who run 10-15 miles a week racing in club singlets who can't run a 10k at 8 minute miles.

People need to think about why they join running clubs.
Personally I think people who can't run under 7 min miles themselves i.e. show some potential, have no business with a coach, myself included.

I run for enjoyment but also live in the real world.

rom

rovers_runner wrote: »

It never fails to amuse me seeing people who run 10-15 miles a week racing in club singlets who can't run a 10k at 8 minute miles.

People need to think about why they join running clubs.
Personally I think people who can't run under 7 min miles themselves i.e. show some potential, have no business with a coach, myself included.

I run for enjoyment but also live in the real world.

People have to start from somewhere. I think that the only requirement to be in a club is that you would like to run with other people. Its that kind of attitude why some won't join clubs.

libelula

rovers_runner wrote: »

It never fails to amuse me seeing people who run 10-15 miles a week racing in club singlets who can't run a 10k at 8 minute miles.

People need to think about why they join running clubs.
Personally I think people who can't run under 7 min miles themselves i.e. show some potential, have no business with a coach, myself included.

I run for enjoyment but also live in the real world.

I joined a club to improve my times and get a bit of advice and guidance when I was 55 min 10k or thereabouts. I worked bloody hard to get that far, and fancied some help to get a bit faster.
What's different with what a 'talented' athlete does? Don't they also work bloody hard and fancy some help?

My slowness is the reason I'll never make the club team, but that's ok.
All I want to do is improve and chip away at my times for the next few years.
Sorry if that means I don't 'live in the real world', but hey it's my world, and if I want to pay my membership and race in a club singlet then I will.

walshb

rovers_runner wrote: »

It never fails to amuse me seeing people who run 10-15 miles a week racing in club singlets who can't run a 10k at 8 minute miles.

People need to think about why they join running clubs.
Personally I think people who can't run under 7 min miles themselves i.e. show some potential, have no business with a coach, myself included.

I run for enjoyment but also live in the real world.

Hey, these kinds of posts will get you in a whole heap of trouble around here. I was a lot more generous than you when I mentioned 8-9 minute miles being a given for any reasonably fit and healthy "young" adult.:) I agree, if after a while you are still puffing and panting to bang out an 8 minute mile then ditch the coach and spend the money on a mackers or something.

libelula

walshb wrote: »

Hey, these kinds of posts will get you in a whole heap of trouble around here. I was a lot more generous than you when I mentioned 8-9 minute miles being a given for any reasonably fit and healthy "young" adult.:) I agree, if after a while you are still puffing and panting to bang out an 8 minute mile then ditch the coach and spend the money on a mackers or something.

That has to be a candidate for one of the most ignorant, unencouraging, unhelpful and arrogant posts I've seen here all year.

bucketybuck

libelula wrote: »

That has to be a candidate for one of the most ignorant, unencouraging, unhelpful and arrogant posts I've seen here all year.

Its par for the course unfortunately.

walshb

libelula wrote: »

That has to be a candidate for one of the most ignorant, unencouraging, unhelpful and arrogant posts I've seen here all year.

Start a poll?

That's what happens me when I try to save folks a few bob...:o

BTW, maybe instead of one line "put downs or swipes" you could actually offer a rebuttal or a counter argument. It starts something like..."I disagree with you, walshb, and here is why." You may actually find it more stimulating and rewarding than the one liners that you are fond of.

Firedance

walshb wrote: »

Hey, these kinds of posts will get you in a whole heap of trouble around here. I was a lot more generous than you when I mentioned 8-9 minute miles being a given for any reasonably fit and healthy "young" adult.:) I agree, if after a while you are still puffing and panting to bang out an 8 minute mile then ditch the coach and spend the money on a mackers or something.

rovers_runner wrote: »

It never fails to amuse me seeing people who run 10-15 miles a week racing in club singlets who can't run a 10k at 8 minute miles.

People need to think about why they join running clubs.
Personally I think people who can't run under 7 min miles themselves i.e. show some potential, have no business with a coach, myself included.

I run for enjoyment but also live in the real world.

My club allows runners of all abilities to join, as far as I'm concerned they are the only ones who get a say in whether anyone is good enough to join, thankfully they see the bigger picture and are not narrow minded in their outlook. For anyone reading this who is thinking of joining a club and feel you're not 'good enough', please don't let the opinions of some people put you off, go and talk to your club directly and they will let you know if they have a category suitable for you. Elitism does not belong on an amateur boards thread.

walshb

Firedance wrote: »

My club allows runners of all abilities to join, as far as I'm concerned they are the only ones who get a say in whether anyone is good enough to join, thankfully they see the bigger picture and are not narrow minded in their outlook. For anyone reading this who is thinking of joining a club and feel you're not 'good enough', please don't let the opinions of some people put you off, go and talk to your club directly and they will let you know if they have a category suitable for you. Elitism does not belong on an amateur boards thread.

I was more thinking of paying a coach as in one on one. Not a club!

RayCun

As the chairman of a club, and knowing a lot of people from other clubs, about the only question we have is
Do you like running and want to run with other people?
Answer 'yes' and you're in

And if you're a club member, I'd like to see you run in a club singlet in every race you do, whether that's a Meet & Train or a marathon, whether you're winning or coming last. We want people in the club, we're proud of our members, and we hope they are proud to be a member.

okay, if you can't run 5k yet we'd suggest you start by following a couch to 5k programme. But after that, we do our very best to have all sessions accessible to all runners.

Firedance

walshb wrote: »

I was more thinking of paying a coach as in one on one. Not a club!

the post you were responding to referred to club membership, either way, if someone decides to join a club, or hire a coach in order to improve then good for them, its not anyone's business. The club or the coach will asses whether they are of a suitable standard. Discouraging people from seeking out ways to improve is unhelpful to say the least.

walshb

Firedance wrote: »

the post you were responding to referred to club membership, either way, if someone decides to join a club, or hire a coach in order to improve then good for them, its not anyone's business. The club or the coach will asses whether they are of a suitable standard. Discouraging people from seeking out ways to improve is unhelpful to say the least.

Patting them on the back for being potentially conned is something that is also very unhelpful. That happens. Sometimes the truth hurts. But it is more helpful as well. I am sure in many instances a personal coach can be helpful. Getting the average healthy adult to 6 minutes would be very good if they started out at 8-9 minutes. I would say most of the improvements with the 10-11 minutes group would be down to simple diet and shedding weight. No need for running coaches. I wouldn't label someone a coach for getting a 10-11 minutes adult to 8-9 minutes. Plenty of chancers out there as well, and it's up the individual to weed them out. If not, then some advice is needed.

RacoonQueen

Some people need to train more flexibly than what they'd get within club coaching, for which a one to one coach works better for them. I switched to one on one coaching myself in November 2013 because I wasn't able to make club sessions any more and it got me back running. Certainly wouldn't be doing anything I'm doing now if I hadn't made the switch. I have learnt a lot from individual coaching that I never learnt in a club, my training is tailored to me and I've umlauted email/phone/SMS contact.
I'm far from fast.

The right coach could get a 11 minute miler running 7 or 8 minute miles much quicker than a club could or than they could on their own. Depends on the person. Some coaches operate for free or charge very little anyway.

walshb

RacoonQueen wrote: »

The right coach could get a 11 minute miler running 7 or 8 minute miles much quicker than a club could or than they could on their own. Depends on the person. Some coaches operate for free or charge very little anyway.

I reckon I could get any 11 minute miler (reasonably young with no obvious illness or impediment) to 7-8 minutes within a few minutes. I am betting that most are overweight and couch potatoes. Some advice and tips and within a few months I reckon they could do a 7-8 minute mile. Providing they have will power and want to do it they will. They may need a motivator, but not necessarily a coach.

Ososlo

walshb wrote: »

I reckon I could get any 11 minute miler to 7-8 minutes within a few minutes. I am betting that most are overweight and couch potatoes. Some advice and tips and within a few months I reckon they could do a 7-8 minute mile. Providing they have will power and want to do it they will. They may need a motivator, but not necessarily a coach.

Why do people seem to usually equate slowness with being overweight? Lots of slow people are not overweight.

rovers_runner

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Some people need to train more flexibly than what they'd get within club coaching, for which a one to one coach works better for them. I switched to one on one coaching myself in November 2013 because I wasn't able to make club sessions any more and it got me back running. Certainly wouldn't be doing anything I'm doing now if I hadn't made the switch. I have learnt a lot from individual coaching that I never learnt in a club, my training is tailored to me and I've umlauted email/phone/SMS contact.
I'm far from fast.

The right coach could get a 11 minute miler running 7 or 8 minute miles much quicker than a club could or than they could on their own. Depends on the person. Some coaches operate for free or charge very little anyway.

That's all good and well when people put in as much time and have potential as you have RQ.

Some people seem to think turning up at club's means they just need to listen and the results will happen.

Any adult who joins a club without already having the basics of good diet, running weight and a decent volume of mileage is having a laugh.

walshb

Ososlo wrote: »

Why do people seem to usually equate slowness with being overweight? Lots of slow people are not overweight.

Not only overweight. Could be complete non activity people, smokers, heavy drinkers, sedentary livers. All these things need common sense and a bit of bloody willpower. No need whatsoever for a running coach. It's the most natural activity on earth is putting one foot in front of the other. I am speaking about those who are reasonably young and have no real underlying medical conditions that would make even a coach's job very tough. For these there is no need to be shelling out cash to run an 8 minute mile.

RacoonQueen

walshb wrote: »

I reckon I could get any 11 minute miler (reasonably young with no obvious illness or impediment) to 7-8 minutes within a few minutes. I am betting that most are overweight and couch potatoes. Some advice and tips and within a few months I reckon they could do a 7-8 minute mile. Providing they have will power and want to do it they will. They may need a motivator, but not necessarily a coach.

But that might be the role the coach plays for them - motivator, encourager...maybe even, depending on the person, a 'backslapper'

walshb

RacoonQueen wrote: »

But that might be the role the coach plays for them - motivator, encourager...maybe even, depending on the person, a 'backslapper'

Indeed. Motivator. But that could be your mam/brother/friend etc. Does not require spending money or seeking out some coach. I would recommend a dietician/motivator for most people in the category I am speaking about.

Coaches and trainers should be more for the talented ones who have no real hardship, but need tailored programmes and specific training plans and advice to allow them to really motor along.

Firedance

rovers_runner wrote: »

That's all good and well when people put in as much time and have potential as you have RQ.

Some people seem to think turning up at club's means they just need to listen and the results will happen.

Any adult who joins a club without already having the basics of good diet, running weight and a decent volume of mileage is having a laugh.

can you tell me where I can find what this is please?

walshb

Firedance wrote: »

can you tell me where I can find what this is please?

Do you really need an answer (precise) to this?

Firedance

walshb wrote: »

Do you really need an answer (precise) to this?

yes please, or if you can point me to the running rules where the weight I must be is stated. thanks.

walshb

Firedance wrote: »

yes please, or if you can point me to the running rules where the weight I must be is stated. thanks.

There is no actual weight. Use common sense, or the mirror test!:)

Firedance

walshb wrote: »

There is no actual weight. Use common sense, or the mirror test!:)

yes, you're right, there is no right weight because there are no rules! people can run if they want, join a club if they want, hire a coach if they want so how about we live and let live and let the clubs decide whether someone is suitable for them or not?

walshb

Firedance wrote: »

yes, you're right, there is no right weight because there are no rules! people can run if they want, join a club if they want, hire a coach if they want so how about we live and let live and let the clubs decide whether someone is suitable for them or not?

Nobody is arguing otherwise. People can do a lot of things because they want. Doesn't mean we all have to agree with those things, or believe them to be sensible. And offering alternatives should not be discouraged.

BTW, I already said I was not speaking about clubs. My point was the hiring of a coach! That is what I meant from the beginning. The original post I was responding to had this bit: "have no business with a coach." It was this bit I was referring to.

RacoonQueen

Firedance wrote: »

yes please, or if you can point me to the running rules where the weight I must be is stated. thanks.

There are some online calculators you can use to estimate the difference. Doesn't explain the skinny/lighter people who struggle to improve their speed though. Which could be down to a number of other factors - nutrition, under training, over training, just training wrong (poor training plan / training for distances that don't suit them / training that just doesn't suit them), health...list is endless

http://www.runningforfitness.org/faq/we

Clubs propelled during the running boom, many club members join them for the social aspect. This is actually beneficial to the slower runners who want to improve. Donore have people who started in Fit4Life, moved to the main group and are now sub 40 10k runners, 18 min 5k runners etc

ger664

You dont need to run fast to throw the shot

rom

Murph_D wrote: »

As someone with a background in media production, I would hazard a guess that the reason there is no such documentary is that there is virtually no chance that it would recoup its production costs.

http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-25302988

kit3

walshb wrote: »

I reckon I could get any 11 minute miler (reasonably young with no obvious illness or impediment) to 7-8 minutes within a few minutes. I am betting that most are overweight and couch potatoes.

walshb wrote: »

Not only overweight. Could be complete non activity people, smokers, heavy drinkers, sedentary livers. All these things need common sense and a bit of bloody willpower.

I thought you said you were mellowing ?? You're really surpassing yourself here - were you dumped by some slow-running female as a young fella by any chance ?? :cool:

walshb

kit3 wrote: »

I thought you said you were mellowing ?? You're really surpassing yourself here - were you dumped by some slow-running female as a young fella by any chance ?? :cool:

No. I just reckon I could get the job done for them and save them a few bob. I wouldn't charge them a cent. I'm a decent skin, you know!

yosser hughes

RacoonQueen wrote: »

There are some online calculators you can use to estimate the difference. Doesn't explain the skinny/lighter people who struggle to improve their speed though. Which could be down to a number of other factors - nutrition, under training, over training, just training wrong (poor training plan / training for distances that don't suit them / training that just doesn't suit them), health...list is endless

http://www.runningforfitness.org/faq/we

Clubs propelled during the running boom, many club members join them for the social aspect. This is actually beneficial to the slower runners who want to improve. Donore have people who started in Fit4Life, moved to the main group and are now sub 40 10k runners, 18 min 5k runners etc

I'm actually interested/curious about joining a club. Donore actually, as I live near there.
I run on my own and have managed to improve my times but to be honest, I probably need the structure/discipling of turning up to training sessions if I want to improve more.I seem to have plateaued.
I'm just wondering how does training work? I assume there are all abilities/speeds? So are you graded when you join and then train in a group at your level? Im talking about long/middle distance running by the way. At the moment I run 5k in about 21 mins but I know I could do a lot better, but am far too intermittent with training etc. I run in parkruns regularly enough, but don't have friends who run so it's a bit solitary for me at the moment.

Murph_D

rom wrote: »

http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-25302988

Ha ha. You don't have to tell me! The figure for Irish films is much closer to zero. But we are not really talking about documentary film here. An internet hosted instructional video would probably be a more effective description.