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1 in 7 dope for IM

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    #2
    tunney
    Registered Users Posts: 12,583 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    BennyMul wrote: »
    saw this yesterday,
    http://www.irishtriathlon.com/index.php/2014/01/ironman-triathlon-doping-epo-steroids/

    and was wondering if its actually higher, if they have gone to that length to get a PB, win their category would they continue the lie for self believe.

    as an age grouper would you take substances to go "faster"?

    Yeah when anti-depressants are considered doping..............


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    #3
    MrCreosote
    Registered Users Posts: 2,320 ✭✭✭MrCreosote


    And beta-blockers! Someone using beta blockers to dope in a triathlon might want to change their doping doctor.


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    #4
    peter kern
    Registered Users Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭peter kern


    BennyMul wrote: »
    saw this yesterday,
    http://www.irishtriathlon.com/index.php/2014/01/ironman-triathlon-doping-epo-steroids/

    and was wondering if its actually higher, if they have gone to that length to get a PB, win their category would they continue the lie for self believe.

    as an age grouper would you take substances to go "faster"?


    i am suprised nobody has come out yet , given that statisically there should be at least 10 boardies on juice...


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    #5
    rooneyjm
    Registered Users Posts: 595 ✭✭✭rooneyjm


    Should the thread title not be "1 in 7 in IM are dopes"?


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    #6
    death1234567
    Registered Users Posts: 3,333 ✭✭✭death1234567


    tunney wrote: »
    Yeah when anti-depressants are considered doping..............
    They are doping, just ask Bjarne Riis. He won a Tour de France on them (amongst other things).


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    #7
    tunney
    Registered Users Posts: 12,583 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    death1234567 wrote: »
    They are doping, just ask Bjarne Riis. He won a Tour de France on them (amongst other things).

    Not with a TUE they are not.

    Thats the bit missing from the "research".

    "Do you have a TUE for these drugs?"


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    #8
    peter kern
    Registered Users Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭peter kern


    but realisitcally, i would be very confident to get an tue, lets say for asthma, if i wanted, and just went to a few docs.
    I am not saying I am against tues, but i am saying that i would be very sure that some tues are not worth the paper.
    BennyMul wrote: »
    saw this yesterday,
    http://www.irishtriathlon.com/index.php/2014/01/ironman-triathlon-doping-epo-steroids/

    and was wondering if its actually higher, if they have gone to that length to get a PB, win their category would they continue the lie for self believe.

    as an age grouper would you take substances to go "faster"?
    tunney wrote: »
    Not with a TUE they are not.

    Thats the bit missing from the "research".

    "Do you have a TUE for these drugs?"


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    #9
    tunney
    Registered Users Posts: 12,583 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    peter kern wrote: »
    but realisitcally, i would be very confident to get an tue, lets say for asthma, if i wanted, and just went to a few docs.
    I am not saying I am against tues, but i am saying that i would be very sure that some tues are not worth the paper.

    No. Not anymore. It was that easy to get a TUE for asthma, then it changed. You have to go to certain regional experts/clinics now and not GPs. Much harder to get.


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    #10
    NetwerkErrer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 352 ✭✭NetwerkErrer


    rooneyjm wrote: »
    Should the thread title not be "1 in 7 in IM are dopes"?

    You're giving the other 6 way too much credit:p

    This doesn't surprise me in the least and I'd believe the numbers are probably higher. With all the supplementation in amateur sport these days, a lot of people would be taking in banned substances and while some would be ignorant to to it, I'm sure there are many out there who are purposely taking these supplements to eek out every inch of performance.

    On the TUE's at the elite end of things, I think they are complete b.s. and should be scrapped. It's a "legitimate" way to dope for most athletes and as the circ report into cycling showed, it's now the most abused system in sport and all of these athletes are now coming down with conditions that only used to be present in women over the age of 70.

    The way I see it is, if you're sick, you're sick and that is part of your physiology just the same as being tired is, tough luck if you are. You have the choice to keep competing while in that state or you take time off to get better.

    If you have a poor endocrine system or blood issues, tough luck again, that's your body and your problem. If you get arse rash from the saddle, tough luck. You either compete inside the normal rules or not at all.

    If a substance isn't on the banned list, work away but if it is, you can't use it. It's a hard line but I'm sick of all these loopholes and glaring ones at that. The circ report put 90% of all doping down to TUE's, if that's true and it wouldn't surprise me, the system needs a serious rethink.


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    #11
    BennyMul
    Registered Users Posts: 1,173 ✭✭✭BennyMul


    NetwerkErrer wrote: »
    You're giving the other 6 way too much credit:p

    This doesn't surprise me in the least and I'd believe the numbers are probably higher. With all the supplementation in amateur sport these days, a lot of people would be taking in banned substances and while some would be ignorant to to it, I'm sure there are many out there who are purposely taking these supplements to eek out every inch of performance.
    the number is definitely higher however the % of them based unknowing taking substances is (imo) small,
    NetwerkErrer wrote: »
    On the TUE's at the elite end of things, I think they are complete b.s. and should be scrapped. It's a "legitimate" way to dope for most athletes and as the circ report into cycling showed, it's now the most abused system in sport and all of these athletes are now coming down with conditions that only used to be present in women over the age of 70.

    The way I see it is, if you're sick, you're sick and that is part of your physiology just the same as being tired is, tough luck if you are. You have the choice to keep competing while in that state or you take time off to get better.

    If you have a poor endocrine system or blood issues, tough luck again, that's your body and your problem. If you get arse rash from the saddle, tough luck. You either compete inside the normal rules or not at all.

    If a substance isn't on the banned list, work away but if it is, you can't use it. It's a hard line but I'm sick of all these loopholes and glaring ones at that. The circ report put 90% of all doping down to TUE's, if that's true and it wouldn't surprise me, the system needs a serious rethink.

    personally I dont think we should be comparing this report to professional athletes, different kettle of fish
    this was about the ordinary folk, and as peter pointed out the laws of statistics someone on here, took ped's to go faster.
    I would have liked to see the times these people raced so we could work out if it was "worth" the effort to cheat.


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    #12
    peter kern
    Registered Users Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭peter kern


    just last week there was a french study released on micro dosing doping ( epo i think it was )
    improvents were rather dramatic ( and non would have failled a test ...)
    test was conducted on amateurs.


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    #13
    tunney
    Registered Users Posts: 12,583 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    peter kern wrote: »
    just last week there was a french study released on micro dosing doping ( epo i think it was )
    improvents were rather dramatic ( and non would have failled a test ...)
    test was conducted on amateurs.

    More worryingly none would have registered biological passport problems either.


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    #14
    NetwerkErrer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 352 ✭✭NetwerkErrer


    tunney wrote: »
    More worryingly none would have registered biological passport problems either.

    The BP is flawed in a lot of ways. Tyler Hamilton's confession was all the more worrying on how they beat the BP. They used to microdose EPOin combination with a blood transfusion to balance out the effects on reticolyte readings and mature RBC's thus negating the where the BP is successful on blood readings. They've been doing this since the BP first came into being. The BP was created in the mid 90's and is far from cutting edge technology. Also, there is a lot of issues with it just being a form of indirect testing. Should stop there, I might be giving boardsies idea's:D

    Definitely an improvement in discouraging doers but flawed in use.


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    #15
    Kurt Godel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,361 ✭✭✭Kurt Godel


    A different sport, but also applicable to Tri: the recent CIRC report said that:
    "The commission believes doping in amateur cycling is becoming endemic...
    "This was confirmed by amateur riders, as well as professionals, managers and anti-doping personnel who had exposure to it.
    "It has been caused by a combination of ease of access to drugs via gyms and the internet, the reduction in costs, a spread of knowledge in means and methods of administration, and a lack of funding for regular testing at the amateur level."

    Given the amount of cheating in plain sight in amateur Tri (drafting), its no big leap to suggest there is plenty of hidden doping going on too.


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    #16
    NetwerkErrer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 352 ✭✭NetwerkErrer


    peter kern wrote: »
    just last week there was a french study released on micro dosing doping ( epo i think it was )
    improvents were rather dramatic ( and non would have failled a test ...)
    test was conducted on amateurs.

    Do top amateurs have to have a BP these days?


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    #17
    bryangiggsy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭bryangiggsy


    BennyMul wrote: »
    the number is definitely higher



    personally I dont think we should be comparing this report to professional athletes, different kettle of fish
    this was about the ordinary folk, and as peter pointed out the laws of statistics someone on here, took ped's to go faster.
    I would have liked to see the times these people raced so we could work out if it was "worth" the effort to cheat.


    What are you basing your opinions on Benny? IMO Looking at the times achieved in Ireland in all distances from sprint, olympic, half iron and ironman. (considering Ireland had the 3 largest country numbers in Roth last year) I would be very suprised if any Irish were doping with PED's . If they are they are wasting their money because there is no irish times out there that would indicate doping that could not be achieved by hard training something so many 'triathletes' are allergic too.


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    #18
    tunney
    Registered Users Posts: 12,583 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    <SAVING THE MODS SNIPPING THIS COMMENT>


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    #19
    NetwerkErrer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 352 ✭✭NetwerkErrer


    bryangiggsy wrote: »
    What are you basing your opinions on Benny? IMO Looking at the times achieved in Ireland in all distances from sprint, olympic, half iron and ironman. (considering Ireland had the 3 largest country numbers in Roth last year) I would be very suprised if any Irish were doping with PED's . If they are they are wasting their money because there is no irish times out there that would indicate doping that could not be achieved by hard training something so many 'triathletes' are allergic too.

    You can't use times to suggest a person is doping or not, that's ridiculous. A 4 hour Oly triathlete could be shooting up EPO in their bike shed, that doesn't mean if they doped that they would shredding the field in an ironman. Doping is all about taking a shortcut and just because those times are achievable for one person from hard training doesn't mean it is for another. Some people dope when they can't compete, can't complete or just want an advantage or time to blow about.

    Using times to back either a case for or against doping is utterly pointless.


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    #20
    sconhome
    Registered Users Posts: 5,468 ✭✭✭sconhome


    NetwerkErrer wrote: »
    Do top amateurs have to have a BP these days?

    Don't think so. But all amateurs regardless of level are subject to random testing by TI under Sports Council arrangements.

    Provision for accommodating them has to be made in race plans by RD's


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    #21
    tunney
    Registered Users Posts: 12,583 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    for those who say it doesn't happen in Ireland. Have a look about the amount of cheating in other ways that goes on. People are just one delusion away from drugs.


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    #22
    BennyMul
    Registered Users Posts: 1,173 ✭✭✭BennyMul


    bryangiggsy wrote: »
    What are you basing your opinions on Benny? IMO Looking at the times achieved in Ireland in all distances from sprint, olympic, half iron and ironman. (considering Ireland had the 3 largest country numbers in Roth last year) I would be very suprised if any Irish were doping with PED's . If they are they are wasting their money because there is no irish times out there that would indicate doping that could not be achieved by hard training something so many 'triathletes' are allergic too.

    Sorry I was trying to purposely remove the professionally from the conversation, their income depends on results (not condoning PED in any circumstances but can understand why a pro may feel the need to juice up)

    I was looking at this from a joe blogs standpoint, taking PEDs to "do a sub 12 IM", or to win an age group and be a big fish in a very small pond.

    I agree with you on if there were Irish using PED's in ROTH, its a waste of money, however I would like to know why they juiced up, was it a shortcut and as you said to avoid training hard, or were they simply not good enough so again took a shortcut.
    in either way its stupid,


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    #23
    bryangiggsy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭bryangiggsy


    BennyMul wrote: »
    Sorry I was trying to purposely remove the professionally from the conversation, their income depends on results (not condoning PED in any circumstances but can understand why a pro may feel the need to juice up)

    I was looking at this from a joe blogs standpoint, taking PEDs to "do a sub 12 IM", or to win an age group and be a big fish in a very small pond.

    I agree with you on if there were Irish using PED's in ROTH, its a waste of money, however I would like to know why they juiced up, was it a shortcut and as you said to avoid training hard, or were they simply not good enough so again took a shortcut.
    in either way its stupid,

    I just can't see it happening at all on the scale you are talking about Benny. Am sure there are one or two bad eggs at the top of the age groups as in all sports but in the sub 12 category no way.. Makes abs no sense. All hearsay and conjecture am afraid unless you have any evidence at all to back it up?


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    #24
    tunney
    Registered Users Posts: 12,583 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    bryangiggsy wrote: »
    I just can't see it happening at all on the scale you are talking about Benny. Am sure there are one or two bad eggs at the top of the age groups as in all sports but in the sub 12 category no way.. Makes abs no sense. All hearsay and conjecture am afraid unless you have any evidence at all to back it up?

    The evidence is there. The positive tests are there. You just need to look Bryan. Albeit you are going to have to extrapolate from other jurisdictions results.

    Lots of things make no sense. Still happen all the time though.


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    #25
    bryangiggsy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭bryangiggsy


    tunney wrote: »
    The evidence is there. The positive tests are there. You just need to look Bryan. Albeit you are going to have to extrapolate from other jurisdictions results.

    Lots of things make no sense. Still happen all the time though.

    Links ? Cheers


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    #26
    BennyMul
    Registered Users Posts: 1,173 ✭✭✭BennyMul


    bryangiggsy wrote: »
    I just can't see it happening at all on the scale you are talking about Benny. Am sure there are one or two bad eggs at the top of the age groups as in all sports but in the sub 12 category no way.. Makes abs no sense. All hearsay and conjecture am afraid unless you have any evidence at all to back it up?

    1/3 of the answers were in English, so we could easily establish how many could be Irish,


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    #27
    Bambaata
    Registered Users Posts: 4,090 ✭✭✭Bambaata


    Seems there'll be a fair few more tests this year in tri than other years. TI sent around a request for Cat 1 athletes to complete a one hour e-learning course which is available on the Sports Council site and send them back the completed certificate - http://www.irishsportscouncil.ie/Anti-Doping/Education-Zone/Are_you_a_Real_Winner_/

    It was corney as hell but interesting to see what a test actually entails. Ive no doubt there's a large amount of people that accidently dope by using over the counter medication


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    #28
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,262 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    MrCreosote wrote: »
    And beta-blockers! Someone using beta blockers to dope in a triathlon might want to change their doping doctor.

    Or bananas. Bananas are beta blockers.


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    #29
    tunney
    Registered Users Posts: 12,583 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    One man's account Bryan

    http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/05/amateur-doping-in-australia-a-personal-story/


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    #30
    rooneyjm
    Registered Users Posts: 595 ✭✭✭rooneyjm


    tunney wrote: »
    One man's account Bryan

    http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/05/amateur-doping-in-australia-a-personal-story/

    You could definitely see some people falling into that trap. Constantly tired, constantly soar, constantly trying to to recover for the next training phase. Where did he say he got that stuff.:D


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    #31
    NetwerkErrer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 352 ✭✭NetwerkErrer


    tunney wrote: »
    One man's account Bryan

    http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/05/amateur-doping-in-australia-a-personal-story/

    Another amateur cyclists experiment on the effects of PED's on his performance for anyone who wants to know how much improvement they give.

    http://www.outsideonline.com/1924306/drug-test


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