Claiming Entitlements on Land Rented Out

Heartbreak Hank

Hello,
Looking for a bit of help with the BPS. Based on advice, I set my land without entitlements, retaining 1 hectare and my own entitlements. I was told that I could enter the basic payment scheme and get paid for all my entitlements. On a call with the department the other day I was told that I cannot claim for anything but the one hectare I am farming. Please tell me that the department person was wrong or it will be a disaster for me.
Thanks.

djmc

Do you mean set trees or let out the land to another farmer
I think 2013 ad 2015 are reference years whichever year you farmed less land and that amount of land will be taken for new bfp
So whatever amount of land you had in for sfp in either 2013 or 2015 which ever is less will be taken going forward

Heartbreak Hank

djmc wrote: »

Do you mean set trees or let out the land to another farmer
I think 2013 ad 2015 are reference years whichever year you farmed less land and that amount of land will be taken for new bfp
So whatever amount of land you had in for sfp in either 2013 or 2015 which ever is less will be taken going forward

Let out to another farmer. I was told that if I held my entitlements and farmed 1 ha that I could claim all my entitlements. I'm doubly worried that I have messed up this year and I will lose the entitlements on the rented land. As this is a reference year then I will only have one from now on.

cristeoir

You need to get in contact with an adviser, you should have rented your entitlements with the land and come to some arrangement with the other farmer about getting the money paid back to you. I think you may be able to withdraw your BPS application but you most definitely need to get help from a professional. What I do know for fact is thatthe department will not let you stack entitlements this year unless they were on rented land which you no longer have.You CANNOT lease out part of your land and stack entitlements on remainder.
Have you signed a lease agreement and how long does it run for.

Username John

cristeoir wrote: »

You need to get in contact with an adviser, you should have rented your entitlements with the land and come to some arrangement with the other farmer about getting the money paid back to you. I think you may be able to withdraw your BPS application but you most definitely need to get help from a professional. What I do know for fact is thatthe department will not let you stack entitlements this year unless they were on rented land which you no longer have.You CANNOT lease out part of your land and stack entitlements on remainder.
Have you signed a lease agreement and how long does it run for.

I don't think this is correct.

I think you can rent out some and stack the entitlements. The rented ground cannot be used to apply for the national reserve, otherwise I don't think you can stack the entitlements.

But - get onto and advisor, but from my understanding, all is not lost OP.

micraX

If YOUR not farming the land, why should YOU get the entitlements??

cristeoir

I am just repeating what the department told me twice as I am in that situation but maybe you were told differently John.
I also got my advisor to clarify the sitaution as I wanted to rent out part and stack all my entitlements on my remaining land - NOT ALLOWED.

Sheep breeder

you can only stack entitlements if you loose rented land, you would also have to had made an application in 2013 the reference year, if you own the land you can rent out and stack,

cristeoir

Heartbreak Hank, I am sure you are not the only one who this has happened to as the department only seems to have decided the actual interpretation of the rules in the last fortnight.
As John says all is not lost yet so don't panic but try and get on to it as soon as you can , maybe the person who rented the land will lease the entitlements of you ( has to be done through a Private Contract Clause) .

Username John

cristeoir wrote: »

I am just repeating what the department told me twice as I am in that situation but maybe you were told differently John.
I also got my advisor to clarify the sitaution as I wanted to rent out part and stack all my entitlements on my remaining land - NOT ALLOWED.

Interesting cristeoir - my advisor told me it was allowed.

Must make some calls to double check on Monday.

Username John

Sheep breeder wrote: »

you can only stack entitlements if you loose rented land, you would also have to had made an application in 2013 the reference year, if you own the land you can rent out and stack,

Does your first comment
"you can only stack entitlements if you loose rented land" not contradict your last comment
"if you own the land you can rent out and stack"
?

cristeoir

You should John as I thought the same as you as that was the way it read to me in the terms and conditions booklet but my advisor rang the department in my presence and was told what the new rules were, he then insisted on speaking to a supervisor to make doubly sure .
Its a bit of a balls up by the department especially when its such an important year for establishing your BPS

rangler1

The way I understand it is we are all establishing new entitlements and they're based on our single farm payment divided by the no. of hectares farmed in 2013 or 2015....whichever is the lessor,
So in effect there is no stacking, it's just you can manipulate your entitlement value but if its over 250/ha it'll suffer cuts before 2019.
In theory heartbreak hank is able to draw his SFP on one ha, but it'll be massively reduced very quick, Say if his SFP is 5000 claimed on one ha and the max payment is 700/ha in 2019,
I think the dept is wrong in that he should be able to draw it on one ha, but it'll be cut that quick it'll be useless

Username John

cristeoir wrote: »

You should John as I thought the same as you as that was the way it read to me in the terms and conditions booklet but my advisor rang the department in my presence and was told what the new rules were, he then insisted on speaking to a supervisor to make doubly sure .
Its a bit of a balls up by the department especially when its such an important year for establishing your BPS

Well, if that is the case I'm in the same boat as the OP.
As I have some fields let out this year, and I also have my SFP application sent in, with the rescued area...

All done through advisor - as I wanted to be sure all was 100% correct...

rangler1

cristeoir wrote: »

You should John as I thought the same as you as that was the way it read to me in the terms and conditions booklet but my advisor rang the department in my presence and was told what the new rules were, he then insisted on speaking to a supervisor to make doubly sure .
Its a bit of a balls up by the department especially when its such an important year for establishing your BPS

Where's these new rules written, because they're not in the T+Cs that were sent out

Username John

micraX wrote: »

If YOUR not farming the land, why should YOU get the entitlements??

I guess the theory is that it's all being recalculated this year.

So you could argue that you don't get the entitlements, you actually lose them. However - the entitlements you do have would (maybe) increase by the same amount you lost...

If that makes any sense

cristeoir

But rangler that is what I wanted to do , stack all my entitlements on to my remaining land even though I would be losing money overall but they would not allow that.
It seems like there is an awful lot of confusion about the whole thing.

cristeoir

rangler1 wrote: »

Where's these new rules written, because they're not in the T+Cs that were sent out[/

I cant find the book now but it is definitely in it.

cristeoir

Found it, page 17, section1.9 , subsection iii

ganmo

The problem is you're creating 'naked' land.

Yes you can stack entitlements if you have more entitlements than land providing you don't create 'naked' land

Username John

cristeoir wrote: »

Found it, page 17, section1.9 , subsection iii

What book is that?

rangler1

cristeoir wrote: »

Found it, page 17, section1.9 , subsection iii

page 10 section 1.6 sub (IV) gives you the option to declare whatever land area you want.....it does say whichever year is the lesser.
What you have highlighted there is to facilitate transferring entitlements or allocation rights, but it's not compulsory to transfer

rangler1

Username John wrote: »

What book is that?

It came with your BPS application form, helpsheet terms and conditions

Tut tut did you not read it:eek:

cristeoir

rangler1 wrote: »

page 10 section 1.6 sub (IV) gives you the option to declare whatever land area you want.....it does say whichever year is the lesser.
What you have highlighted there is to facilitate transferring entitlements or allocation rights, but it's not compulsory to transfer

Yea but the department ARE insisting that I transfer my entitlements or I lose them cos I am not allowed to stack them.

Username John

rangler1 wrote: »

It came with your BPS application form, helpsheet terms and conditions

Tut tut did you not read it:eek:

In short - nope, I didn't.

I paid a guy who is supposed to know this stuff to do it for me.

cristeoir

ganmo wrote: »

The problem is you're creating 'naked' land.

Yes you can stack entitlements if you have more entitlements than land providing you don't create 'naked' land

Jesus I am totally f@@king bewildered by the whole shagging thing

cristeoir

Username John wrote: »

In short - nope, I didn't.

I paid a guy who is supposed to know this stuff to do it for me.

Same here John, might have been better blundering on and doing it my own way.

cristeoir

Rangler ,just been thinking would my situation be different cos I am leasing for five years and I have to get a formal lease agreement done up.
Maybe thats why I have to lease the entitlements also

rangler1

Username John wrote: »

In short - nope, I didn't.

I paid a guy who is supposed to know this stuff to do it for me.

I'm sure your guy has it right. If you read page 1, you'll see that all entitlements expired on the 31 December, and page ten gives you the option of submitting whatever area you're farming......anyway I'm sure both of you will be clarifying it again on Monday morning

rangler1

cristeoir wrote: »

Rangler ,just been thinking would my situation be different cos I am leasing for five years and I have to get a formal lease agreement done up.
Maybe thats why I have to lease the entitlements also

I'd imagine john is doing a lease too, he'd be foolish not to.
If you want a second opinion, email Peter Young in the farmers journal....those guys are very obliging on queries

cristeoir

Thanks Rangler, I think I will try that.

rangler1

cristeoir wrote: »

Thanks Rangler, I think I will try that.

Keep us posted, if it's being interpreted different by two different consultant, there's surely more

cristeoir

Ok ,I have sent it off now, will let you know when I get a reply.

rangler1

cristeoir wrote: »

Ok ,I have sent it off now, will let you know when I get a reply.

Here's the relevant rule
It didn't copy well but you see where it says '' lessor may lease out''
If it was compulsory the word would be ''must''

''In the case of the lease of
part of a holding which takes place prior to the closing date for the 2015
scheme year and which covers a period that includes the 2015 scheme year, the lessor may lease out along with the land the corresponding entitlements that will be allocated to him on the land in question''

smokey-fitz

Here is a picture I took of a example on leasing and consolidating entitlements. It came from a handbook I got from the department office back in march.

Basically you can lease part of your holding and consolidate entitlement payment on your remaining land. But if you lease everything and hold onto 1 ha you are consolidating all your entitlements value onto 1 entitlement.

If you lease half your holding, the same principle applies as above but you will be halving your number of entitlements but doubling their value.

Hope this makes sense.

Farmer Pudsey

Lads stacking entitlements should beware of the 700 euro max entitlement in 2019.

smokey-fitz

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Lads stacking entitlements should beware of the 700 euro max entitlement in 2019.

And anything over e250 per entitlement is subjected to a yearly reduction.

cristeoir

smokey-fitz wrote: »

And anything over e250 per entitlement is subjected to a yearly reduction.

Yea, I probably am better off financially by leasing out the entitlements as I would lose an extra €750 on top of the €1050 reduction I would get anyway but it just makes it that bit more complicated in the lease agreement.

Farmer Pudsey

[/QUOTE]=smokey-fitz;95400876]And anything over e250 per entitlement is subjected to a yearly reduction.[/QUOTE]

The reduction is an equal percentage no matter what size the entitlement is . That means that provided you entitlements will not reduce to 250 pre 2019 and be at or below 700 in 2019 your repayment is the same. However lads that lease land need to remember that in 2019 the rules will change again and they may need access to that land.

The safest way to maintain your entitlements is to farm your land anything else puts your entitlements at risk.

smokey-fitz

cristeoir wrote: »

Yea, I probably am better off financially by leasing out the entitlements as I would lose an extra €750 on top of the €1050 reduction I would get anyway but it just makes it that bit more complicated in the lease agreement.

Talk to the farmer that has it leased. He might lease the entitlements off you also. You could do a deal with him to pay you 75% of the value of entitlements and thats 25% in his pocket. At least you will still have all the entitlements at the end of the lease and you wont be subjected to the cuts provided your entitlement value are around the national average. You have to lease entitlements through a private contract clause (PCC).

Everyones circumstances are different. Its really something you have to think about and do the maths on.

cristeoir

The auctioneer leased it with the entitlements attached but with the condition that they be repaid to me as they were under the same impression that it had to be done that way.
At the end of the day I think I am getting a really good deal, between rent(250) and entitlements(150) I will get around €400 an acre which I would never make farming it myself but it I would still prefer to have been allowed to put all my entitlements on the bit I am farming myself .
Anyway I will have to go along with the way it is done now and see what changes there will be in 2019.

rangler1

cristeoir wrote: »

The auctioneer leased it with the entitlements attached but with the condition that they be repaid to me as they were under the same impression that it had to be done that way.
At the end of the day I think I am getting a really good deal, between rent(250) and entitlements(150) I will get around €400 an acre which I would never make farming it myself but it I would still prefer to have been allowed to put all my entitlements on the bit I am farming myself .
Anyway I will have to go along with the way it is done now and see what changes there will be in 2019.

You'd be mad to think of doing it any other way and you'll probably get an increase in them now.......even the ones you've rented out

cristeoir

rangler1 wrote: »

You'd be mad to think of doing it any other way and you'll probably get an increase in them now.......even the ones you've rented out

No I won't be getting an increase, its actually a reduction because I am over €400 value per entitlement and thats what was making the drawing up of the lease a bit more complicated.

rangler1

cristeoir wrote: »

No I won't be getting an increase, its actually a reduction because I am over €400 value per entitlement and thats what was making the drawing up of the lease a bit more complicated.

I'm mixing up Hectares and acres

smokey-fitz

cristeoir wrote: »

The auctioneer leased it with the entitlements attached but with the condition that they be repaid to me as they were under the same impression that it had to be done that way.
At the end of the day I think I am getting a really good deal, between rent(250) and entitlements(150) I will get around €400 an acre which I would never make farming it myself but it I would still prefer to have been allowed to put all my entitlements on the bit I am farming myself .
Anyway I will have to go along with the way it is done now and see what changes there will be in 2019.

Thats the best way, and you got a great price too. I think I was confusing you with the OP.

Ive leased my outfarm and im farming the home farm. Dont have enough stock to farm all.

But I have done it the other way. So my existing entitlements will increase a bit but wont suffer too much of a cut over the next 5 years. I took this option because you dont know what changes will be made next time round.

cristeoir

smokey-fitz wrote: »

Thats the best way, and you got a great price too. I think I was confusing you with the OP.

Ive leased my outfarm and im farming the home farm. Dont have enough stock to farm all.

But I have done it the other way. So my existing entitlements will increase a bit but wont suffer too much of a cut over the next 5 years. I took this option because you dont know what changes will be made next time round.

Yea I was delighted with the price I got for it, he is a dairy farmer and my bit is only 100 yards from his parlour, it also split him from one of his grazing blocks so he is happy out aswell and has no problem about repaying the entitlements to me.
But like you say its the uncertainity about 2019 that bothers me too.

cristeoir

Just an update, Peter Young kindly replied and confirmed that you can lease out part of your land and draw your entitlements on the remaining land.

Fierce fustrating though when you have just sat there and listened to the staff in the dept tell you the exact opposite but I am glad for you all who have stacked that there is no problem.

Username John

cristeoir wrote: »

Just an update, Peter Young kindly replied and confirmed that you can lease out part of your land and draw your entitlements on the remaining land.

Fierce fustrating though when you have just sat there and listened to the staff in the dept tell you the exact opposite but I am glad for you all who have stacked that there is no problem.

Thanks for posting that Cristeoir.