Refused planning for house on my own farm

Cattlepen

Just wondering what other farmers experiences are with this. I've worked as a fulltime farmer since I left school in 1989. I inherited this farm around 2003 and have had no other job ever. Call me a late starter but I didn't get married Till I was 41. I decided to build a house as living with the wife and mammy would just not work. I applied for permission on the only road frontage I have on 320 acres, got further information request and then refusal ???? Any advice or experiences would be helpful

_Brian

Cattlepen wrote: »

Just wondering what other farmers experiences are with this. I've worked as a fulltime farmer since I left school in 1989. I inherited this farm around 2003 and have had no other job ever. Call me a late starter but I didn't get married Till I was 41. I decided to build a house as living with the wife and mammy would just not work. I applied for permission on the only road frontage I have on 320 acres, got further information request and then refusal ???? Any advice or experiences would be helpful

This is Ireland..
Ask a good Councillor for help, I know this sticks in my skraw to say but it works.

Or This ?

overshoot

just noticed this on the homepage, you would probably be better in construction and planning...
what did they ask in the FI? generally, if they ask for more info they are willing to grant it unless you mess up the answer. If they dont want the house they will just give a flat refusal. At least thats how they seem to work in my area.
what was the reasons for refusal?

onyerbikepat

Cattlepen, how do I put this diplomatically. :cool: ...Bear in mind how things look from the council side. If they refuse you planning for certain reasons, then they can't go along and grant permission if those conditions are still not met.
Are there other houses nerby, would it qaulify as part of a cluster? Are lines miantained with other houses.

Connemara Farmer

_Brian wrote: »

This is Ireland..
Ask a good Councillor for help, I know this sticks in my skraw to say but it works.

Or This ?

I'd second the Councillor idea, I'd be too mean to stuff an envelope. There are a couple in this neck of the woods who'd be decent at it. Bound to be one or two in your area, promise a house full of votes, or two houses if they get you planning

severeoversteer

what further information did they want?

alter house design
house position
distance from road
waste water treatment
sight lines on road
is it near a monument
ridge height

all these have a big impact on the minds of a planner
if you could take a picture of recently built houses close to your site and bring them into a planning meeting and see what type of house they will grant it may help speed up the approval process

have you owned or built a house before ?

your housing need may be negated if you have owned a dwelling in your own name before

Muckit

Would you consider buying a house locally? This is what I did. Great value out there. You won't build a house cheaper at the moment. Fact. and you've saved yourself the headaches and you get to keep rhe site you've earmarked as farmland. You have to put a value on the site.

Building a house nowadays is no joke. You've already got a little taster of the bureaucracy that comes with it. It's also a 'how long is a piece of string' when it comes to costings. Only so much that can be accounted for but there are always things that crop up that will eat money that you never allowed for. With a purchase you know all your costs up front.

A builder uncle of mine always said 'you're only half way there cost wise after the walls and roof are on.'

The reality and logistics of living beside the parents must also be taken into account. It's a house not a car. You can't drive away into the sunset if/when the neighbours are annoying the **** outta you or herself! look there are as many positives aswell. I know personally it wouldn't be for me.

The other slightly pessimistic but practical side of it, is that keeping the house separate to the farm may be a good thing if circumstances change down the road - monetary or relationship wise.

djmc

Maybe drop a few cattle into the Planer's lawn some night that refused you and drive off
When he tracks you down and asks how your cattle got there say you don't know if they broke out as you don't live on the farm
Only joking on above points but they should be aware of the reason its important for a farmer to live near the main farm
You must be on call 24/7 dealing with livestock drunk or sobar not to mention security of machinery and animals from being stolen.
Ask if you can have a security cabin or mobile home put on site for calving season etc.
A farmer still has very valid reasons to live in the countryside
I think they are trying to reverse the one off housing boom when every tom dick and harry brought a site and built a house in the country

freedominacup

Cattlepen wrote: »

Just wondering what other farmers experiences are with this. I've worked as a fulltime farmer since I left school in 1989. I inherited this farm around 2003 and have had no other job ever. Call me a late starter but I didn't get married Till I was 41. I decided to build a house as living with the wife and mammy would just not work. I applied for permission on the only road frontage I have on 320 acres, got further information request and then refusal ???? Any advice or experiences would be helpful

What was the reason for the refusal?

razor8

you need to specify what they the further info request was for and why they they refused it, your architect may not of been up to job

delop

I know of a similar case, the young farmer couldnt please them, he submitted 3 altered plans, meeting their demands , after 3 refusals , and still got refused, the final refusal they sent him their own plans and said you could build this...

He got a phone cold call from an unknown, who stated that he knew that the fella was having planning issues, and if he could bring 5k to carpark X he could be helped, he messed that up by gettting cranky on the phone and demanding a name.

Finally he asked his dad to apply , and he got approval, so his dad moved out built a new house, and the son moved into the old family house...

He has been told many times since that he 'misunderstood' how the system worked , and should have spoke to a politician and had a 'donation' at hand ....

nothing changes much in this country ... sigh....

foxy farmer

Theres no consistency in planning in this country. Whats fine for me is totally wrong for somone across the road.
County councils aren't capable of maintaining the roads or other services and infrastructure in this country. Giving them total say over house building is a joke.

ganmo

There was a planner in Louth that insisted granite being used.
There's no granite in Louth at all so because of this one person there's loads loads of houses in Louth built with a non local stone

ChippingSodbury

foxy farmer wrote: »

Theres no consistency in planning in this country. Whats fine for me is totally wrong for somone across the road.
County councils aren't capable of maintaining the roads or other services and infrastructure in this country. Giving them total say over house building is a joke.

This is very true. We went through the pain/ process in 2013 and it's frustrating to say the least when dealing with individuals who are completely subjective in their decisions and change their mind at the drop of a hat.
Having said that, there is a very good guide that tries to take the subjectivity out of the decision-making used in Cork: http://www.corkcoco.ie/co/pdf/578944050.pdf
You might not be in Cork but it should be a useful guide to bring with you when talking to your local planners.

Above all, whether you like it or not, you have to comply with whatever decisions they arrive at, be they right or wrong so there's no use in fighting with them (they'll win). I know you can appeal to An Bord Pleanala but I wouldn;t trust those guys either!!

foxy farmer

Put in for planning for 2 storey house back in 2002. Old farmhouse was in bad state. Hadn't been living there beforehand
Site is 300m+ from the road next to the yard. House can't be see from the road and at best the closest would be over quarter of mile through trees.
Was granted permission on first attempt in 03. Yet the planning process dictated that i change window design and colour and stipulated that a well be sunk.
I could go on about neighbours experiences but we'd be here for a bit.

foxy farmer

ChippingSodbury wrote: »

This is very true. We went through the pain/ process in 2013 and it's frustrating to say the least when dealing with individuals who are completely subjective in their decisions and change their mind at the drop of a hat.
Having said that, there is a very good guide that tries to take the subjectivity out of the decision-making used in Cork: http://www.corkcoco.ie/co/pdf/578944050.pdf
You might not be in Cork but it should be a useful guide to bring with you when talking to your local planners.

Above all, whether you like it or not, you have to comply with whatever decisions they arrive at, be they right or wrong so there's no use in fighting with them (they'll win). I know you can appeal to An Bord Pleanala but I wouldn;t trust those guys either!!

I dealt with planning dept.in west cork as it happened.
One planner came out to meet my neighbours sister on an a site after they suggested several ridiculous amendments be made. When asked why they were needed he replied with the following.
"I just don't like the site."

ChippingSodbury

I feel your pain

The guy I had to deal with was a complete asshole but at the end of the day we reached a compromise and I'm writing this reply from upstairs in my new house!!

grazeaway

I know where your coming from had some rather heated discussions with the planner when I was applying as she wasn't giving me planning but wanted me to get a house in village about 5 miles away (there were other reasons for this, I found out later but I degrese).

Not knowing what the FI they wanted it hard to say what they turned it down. However there are a few areas you appeal from. The key one is to show that you are in need of housing. Saying you are living in your mother house would be one way.

Another would be for your mother to apply for planning for a house for her self if she leaves the house to you.

arthur daly

Cattlepen wrote: »

Just wondering what other farmers experiences are with this. I've worked as a fulltime farmer since I left school in 1989. I inherited this farm around 2003 and have had no other job ever. Call me a late starter but I didn't get married Till I was 41. I decided to build a house as living with the wife and mammy would just not work. I applied for permission on the only road frontage I have on 320 acres, got further information request and then refusal ???? Any advice or experiences would be helpful

What fi did they want and reason for refusal?

Madisonmenece

we recently obtained planning on our home farm in west cork after demolishing an existing farm dwelling which was not commercially attractive to restore. There were a few clarifications/objections by the planner which were of course made at latest possible stage, planners like to keep folders active on their desks.

we used a local architect to obtain the planning for the following reasons: he knows the planners, he knows what size/type of house will be permitted in your local area in regards to rural guidelines, he will be in a position to put an attractive case forward to the planner basically saying you a from the rural community building your family home not a blow in building a monster house that does not fit in with environment.

perhaps this was all completed, but if not i would engage a solid architect/surveyor with a good rep with local builders as they will be more grounded with an interested in the structure than an overly extravagant design.

RainyDay

delop wrote: »

I know of a similar case, the young farmer couldnt please them, he submitted 3 altered plans, meeting their demands , after 3 refusals , and still got refused, the final refusal they sent him their own plans and said you could build this...

He got a phone cold call from an unknown, who stated that he knew that the fella was having planning issues, and if he could bring 5k to carpark X he could be helped, he messed that up by gettting cranky on the phone and demanding a name.

Sounds like the local conman saw an opportunity for squeezing some cash out of a sucker. There is no reason to think that the person on the end of the phone was actually connected to the planner(s).

torqtorq

ganmo wrote: »

There was a planner in Louth that insisted granite being used.
There's no granite in Louth at all so because of this one person there's loads loads of houses in Louth built with a non local stone

The Cooley mountains consist of predominantly granite!

Cattlepen

Sorry for late response. Fi involved gateway which we changed to existing gate. They said house was too big so we reduced inspite of a house 700sq metres being two fields away. Brother is partime farmer, got permission onto same road that council have problem with letting me out onto despite this road being downgraded to a regional road from a national. Have another existing exit but it is through the very busy commercial farm yard, livestock trucks coming and going and feed deliveries, fert etc. Also had I an alternative site which I don't have without causing backyard development. Have spent lambing and calving sleeping in jeep and don't think I'm able for another season like that. Gave in all details in application such as letters from teagasc with regard to scale of operation. Also there has never been any sites sold off farm ever so I ain't a speculator

overshoot

without looking its hard to comment, but looking though the National - Rural Planning guidelines (basically the government directives to the co cos) I thought id show were you were being killed.
the last point in particular i think is affecting you, when you mention it was recently a national road

Rural Planning Guidelines:

Non National Roads:
It is vitally important that new housing in rural areas that is located along non national routes is located in such a manner as to avoid endangering public safety by way of a traffic hazard. In particular, individual local authorities will be aware of the regionally and locally important functions of certain regional roads that traverse their functional areas and the need to carefully consider new housing development proposals affecting such routes with a view to:
•Avoiding unnecessary new accesses, for example where access could be provided off a nearby local road,

•Ensuring that necessary new entrances are located in such a manner as to provide effective visibility for both users of the entrance and users of the public roads so that opportunities for conflicting movements are avoided, taking account of all relevant considerations such as traffic levels, typical vehicle speeds, plans for realignment,

•Avoiding the premature obsolescence of regional roads in particular, through creating excessive levels of individual entrances

enricoh

Go in and ask for your file in the planning office, have your file no. With you.
This will give you more info than the bit they sent out to you. I got refused for 10 reasons ,9 were basically crap to fill up the page and the 1 real reason was sight distances not adequately shown by the lad doing my drawings.

TPF2012

overshoot wrote: »

•Avoiding the premature obsolescence of regional roads in particular, through creating excessive levels of individual entrances

What the hell does this mean?

Nekarsulm

TPF2012 wrote: »

What the hell does this mean?

It means the planners would rather you bought a house in town.

If loads of people build along regional roads, those roads become unfit for the volume of traffic created, and someone in the Council/Planning office will have to get off their ar5e and maintain the road, or explain why the surface is disintegrating.

foxy farmer

or explain why the surface is disintegrating.[/quote]
Primarily because they ( the co cos) haven't a clue how to construct or maintain the roads.
Grrrr. Don't get me started.

overshoot

Nekarsulm wrote: »

It means the planners would rather you bought a house in town.

If loads of people build along regional roads, those roads become unfit for the volume of traffic created, and someone in the Council/Planning office will have to get off their ar5e and maintain the road, or explain why the surface is disintegrating.

basically that. N roads are important at National Level, the NRA will could fight an access to a town/village of a new road. R roads are still important at local level and usually main handle a lot of traffic.
The standard for a house would be to say 10 car journeys per day... so for every one off house thats 10 times someone slows to a stop/speeds up slowing traffic. Focusing this on fewer entrances at least gives larger distances where cars may travel at top speed.

Old development plans, permissions (pre 2012 in my county) and the madness that ensued are not regarded as precedent any more and councils are rather hesitant to give anything which may be regarded as precedent to vary the current plan. (in other words if ur brother's permission is more than a few years old, the house may as well not exist)
Regardless there is also conditions to prevent ribbon development, too many septic tanks, etc in one area but it doesnt sound like thats relevant.

Either way, you got an FI and they were willing to negotiate on design/access. I think you will get approval, you just need to talk to roads/planners before the next application. A pre planning meeting/bit of consultation with the 2 council sections, may delay an application going in but probably would see it go straight through next time. A lot more can be said over the phone than on paper. Get your architect on it.

kowtow

Never understood why major road frontage is seen as value enhancing for houses in the Irish countryside.

In the UK it would knock six figures of the value of a house compared to the equivalent house at the end of a quiet boreen.

Bullocks

kowtow wrote: »

Never understood why major road frontage is seen as value enhancing for houses in the Irish countryside.

In the UK it would knock six figures of the value of a house compared to the equivalent house at the end of a quiet boreen.

I'd prefer a quiet boreen myself if not even a quiet cave !

Muckit

kowtow wrote: »

Never understood why major road frontage is seen as value enhancing for houses in the Irish countryside.

In the UK it would knock six figures of the value of a house compared to the equivalent house at the end of a quiet boreen.

Whatever about the value aspect, l'd much prefer to be sited on a main road. Very hard to find 'a quite boreen' nowadays. A boreen with say even just 4-5 houses is a busy road, not to mention farmers accessing fields. Throw in a few blind turns, no centre line so no side of the road. Pulling in here and pulling in there. Having toreverse back to a gateway. Painful. Some people don't mind it though. I'd hate it.

Bullocks

Muckit wrote: »

Whatever about the value aspect, l'd much prefer to be sited on a main road. Very hard to find 'a quite boreen' nowadays. A boreen with say even just 4-5 houses is a busy road, not to mention farmers accessing fields. Throw in a few blind turns, no centre line so no side of the road. Pulling in here and pulling in there. Having toreverse back to a gateway. Painful. Some people don't mind it though. I'd hate it.

You're a secret townie Muckit !

foxy farmer

Spent over 20yrs living in a housing estate. Next door neighbour was less than 20ft away and public road was about 12 ft. Cars and pedestrians passing all day and night. When i put in for planning here the locals (even farmers) couldn't understand why i wasn't building out near the road when the yard was 300 yards away. They couldnt understand me not wanting to destroy a grand field, the convenience of being near the yard or essentially I wanted a bit of privacy. I have no interest who's passing on the road.
I also think keeping a new house well back ,even hidden from the road is a plus when looking for permission.
That said the sun moon and tides have as much influence in planning decisions going by the various contradictory decisions I've seen around here.

keep going

Probaly wont go down well here but I think people go at getting plann7ng the wrong way and dont take enough control of it themselves.if you think7ng of building the firstport of call should be the planners then engage an aarchitect, too many people set them selves on a certain spot and in vest too much before planning application. Also some architects know damn well whats not acceptable and still let it go in because you will only calve once for them so they might as well get two calves and blame the council.it can bevery difficult to get a consultation with a planner but its very worthwhile but you not be

keep going

Probaly wont go down well here but I think people go at getting plann7ng the wrong way and dont take enough control of it themselves.if you think7ng of building the firstport of call should be the planners then engage an aarchitect, too many people set them selves on a certain spot and in vest too much before planning application. Also some architects know damn well whats not acceptable and still let it go in because you will only calve once for them so they might as well get two calves and blame the council.it can bevery difficult to get a consultation with a planner but its very worthwhile but you not be happy with what they say but they are the bosses.finally one other problem is irish peoples fascination with building on the highest point around

Bullocks

keep going wrote: »

Probaly wont go down well here but I think people go at getting plann7ng the wrong way and dont take enough control of it themselves.if you think7ng of building the firstport of call should be the planners then engage an aarchitect, too many people set them selves on a certain spot and in vest too much before planning application. Also some architects know damn well whats not acceptable and still let it go in because you will only calve once for them so they might as well get two calves and blame the council.it can bevery difficult to get a consultation with a planner but its very worthwhile but you not be happy with what they say but they are the bosses.finally one other problem is irish peoples fascination with building on the highest point around

I know of more than one case when the pre planning meeting was contradicted when the drawings were sent in after so it was all for nought.
Maybe it's different around the country but around me it's near impossible to get planning lately .
One lad sent 7 applications in a got refused each time , he is living in a nice sheep shed now !

Reputable Rog

Madisonmenece wrote: »

, planners like to keep folders active on their desks..

Why do Planners like to keep folders active on their desks? Surely its getting them off their desk is the priority considering the ridiculously short timeframe they have for making RECOMMENDATIONS.
Planners don't object, they don't grant or refuse, they make recommendations. Its up to the CEO or their designate to accept the recommendation or not.

With regard to the OP, is there an internal road from which the site can be accessed?
I feel there is more to this than you have outlined, were there any other issues involved, soakage, siting, design, sight distance etc ?

Connemara Farmer

Bullocks wrote: »

I'd prefer a quiet boreen myself if not even a quiet cave !

Just a decent road exit off the farm would suit me, who needs enemies when ya have the lot surrounding my place :rolleyes:

Spread a good rumour, as a lad I know says "If people think you're not right in the head they won't bother ya".

Cattlepen

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Why do Planners like to keep folders active on their desks? Surely its getting them off their desk is the priority considering the ridiculously short timeframe they have for making RECOMMENDATIONS.
Planners don't object, they don't grant or refuse, they make recommendations. Its up to the CEO or their designate to accept the recommendation or not.

With regard to the OP, is there an internal road from which the site can be accessed?
I feel there is more to this than you have outlined, were there any other issues involved, soakage, siting, design, sight distance etc ?

There is an internal road but it is through the busy farmyard as I have said before. With all the talk about farm safety and keeping kids away from yards I wanted to access proposed site through an existing field gate that is straight out into regional road. The scale and bulk was an issue but we reduced it to below houses in the immediate area but got the refusal all the same. Different rules for different people

ganmo

Cattlepen wrote: »

There is an internal road but it is through the busy farmyard as I have said before. With all the talk about farm safety and keeping kids away from yards I wanted to access proposed site through an existing field gate that is straight out into regional road. The scale and bulk was an issue but we reduced it to below houses in the immediate area but got the refusal all the same. Different rules for different people

if thats what their issue was i'd try an bord pleanala explaining your reasons for not wanting to be driving/walking through an active farm yard with heavy machinery operating

Reputable Rog

Cattlepen wrote: »

There is an internal road but it is through the busy farmyard as I have said before. With all the talk about farm safety and keeping kids away from yards I wanted to access proposed site through an existing field gate that is straight out into regional road. The scale and bulk was an issue but we reduced it to below houses in the immediate area but got the refusal all the same. Different rules for different people

Basically you want to exit onto the road and that is that.
It's pretty idiotic to say different rules for different people.Perhaps the road is already saturated with one offs?

Connemara Farmer

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Basically you want to exit onto the road and that is that.
It's pretty idiotic to say different rules for different people.Perhaps the road is already saturated with one offs?

Galway CoCo refused a local planning on account his proposed exit was on a corner. He had previously applied to have the exit an existing one that comes from his brothers house, they refused that initially.


Talk about stupidity in action. If I were looking at it, I'd much prefer ten cars entering the main road from one exit than forcing drivers to watch ten separate exits.

He got it in the end on the existing road, hassled for nothing. Ironically the initial existing exist is closest to the corner.