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Tesla Powerwall

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    #2
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The problem with this is that we don't know how much it will cost in Ireland after import cost and extortion tax is applied.

    It's a good idea and can mean people with renewable energy could possibly disconnect from the grid.

    for the likes of the ESB they could install several at the fast charge points in the future to lessen the burden on the grid and they can charge them from wind/solar energy.


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    #3
    reboot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭reboot


    homer911 wrote: »
    http://www.breakingnews.ie/business/tesla-has-already-received-38000-pre-orders-for-its-powerwall-home-battery-676125.html

    Looks like they are off to a good start - would it be a viable option for public or private charging?

    The Leaf TV ad last year showed the lady driver park the car in the garage and flick a switch, which allowed the car to power the house. China is looking at this on a massive scale.


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    #4
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭nokia69


    reboot wrote: »
    The Leaf TV ad last year showed the lady driver park the car in the garage and flick a switch, which allowed the car to power the house. China is looking at this on a massive scale.

    and where would she charge the car


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    #5
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    reboot wrote: »
    The Leaf TV ad last year showed the lady driver park the car in the garage and flick a switch, which allowed the car to power the house. China is looking at this on a massive scale.

    Nissan in Japan have some converter that allows the Leaf to power the house in the event of a power cut. This came about after the big Earthquake.

    It could mean that for those who don't use their EV much could potentially charge the car on cheap night time energy and use it to power the house during the day when electricity is expensive and still have enough in the battery to drive around.


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    #6
    reboot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭reboot


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Nissan in Japan have some converter that allows the Leaf to power the house in the event of a power cut. This came about after the big Earthquake.

    It could mean that for those who don't use their EV much could potentially charge the car on cheap night time energy and use it to power the house during the day when electricity is expensive and still have enough in the battery to drive around.

    Exactly so,just heard LJ Rich comment on BBC podcast re Tesla Wall, 2,300 sterling for the 10 kwh , and just under 2k for the 7 kwhr battery.
    May wander off thread ,but I tried to start a Solar PV thread over a year ago,without one reply. I think Boards do have some solar activity now but here are a few thoughts re the Teslas wall idea which could be developed on their separate thread, and still relate to EVs.
    Japan is seriously looking at Solar home from the perspective of needing only 9 volt DC supply to run most of our devices which use USB at 5 volts DC. Obviously 230 v ac being a different matter when requiring heating and cooling.
    It is now possible to use special paint on the house roof, aluminium undercoat which will turn it into a PV solar cell.,
    For many years I have managed to run several locations with cheap panels,amorphous when I can find them, car batteries, and a bit of DIY.
    I think we find ourselves in interesting times with very cheap LED lighting,(LIDL) and Maplin PV panels.although I find a high failure rate with these as the o/p contacts, sandwiched between the glass fail after a couple of years. Recently a panel has been added to the rear of my smart phone which will trickle charge it ,maybe Samsung will think about this.
    I could go on with inverters,cells that work in low light,colour filters etc, but maybe the Tesla/ Musk name will generate a debate long overdue ?


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    #7
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    reboot wrote: »
    Exactly so,just heard LJ Rich comment on BBC podcast re Tesla Wall, 2,300 sterling for the 10 kwh , and just under 2k for the 7 kwhr battery.

    2,300 for the 10 Kw seems incredibly cheap, even in pounds. Is this after all European extortion taxes are applied ?

    To install it will probably cost another 5,000 Euro's or more because of the way we're ripped off in Ireland for pretty much everything !

    The 10 Kwh battery would have met my needs before I got the Leaf , now I'd want about 25 Kwh.

    Wind turbines would be a lot more practical but wind turbines, again are a ridiculous price. Made sure by the powers that be so we won't install them.

    If it costs 15-20K euro's for a tiny 3 Kw turbine then what't the point ? If I were to run the car and house + heating then I'd probably need a 10 Kw turbine which would cost a small fortune probably exceeding 50K inclusive of battery for this amount of storage, perhaps when the battery would be full I could then divert the energy to storage heaters but in Summer this energy would be wasted.

    Then there are so many houses and apartments that will still be at the mercy of the big energy companies. Most people won't have the space for wind turbines and Solar suitable for all their power requirements.
    reboot wrote: »
    (LIDL) and Maplin PV panels.although I find a high failure rate with these as the o/p contacts, sandwiched between the glass fail after a couple of years.

    Maplin are a rip off. You can buy solar PV in 5 kw/p quantities for about 5K Euro's or slightly less these days but the installation in Ireland.

    In Ireland wind power is king, but I would install a hybrid system of wind and solar.
    reboot wrote: »
    I could go on with inverters,cells that work in low light,colour filters etc, but maybe the Tesla/ Musk name will generate a debate long overdue ?

    Maybe Elon will start producing solar PV cells and wind turbines and drive down the cost.

    It's just a shame the Irish Government don't even have any micro generation program on the radar, it's going to be at least a decade or more because the ESB , Eirgrid etc, will have to upgrade the network ( probably an excuse)

    Germany are many years ahead of us, my Partner's Parents in Germany have 14 Kw/p on the roof and on a Sunny day can generate just over 70 Kwh. And most of what the generate in Winter goes to the storage heaters.

    But as they say Ireland is years ahead of Germany when it comes to EV Public charging which is true. The German car companies are very anti EV and the Government provide 0 incentives for electrics. I mean absolutely 0 !!!


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    #8
    reboot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭reboot


    Deleted User wrote: »
    2,300 for the 10 Kw seems incredibly cheap, even in pounds. Is this after all European extortion taxes are applied ?

    To install it will probably cost another 5,000 Euro's or more because of the way we're ripped off in Ireland for pretty much everything !

    The 10 Kwh battery would have met my needs before I got the Leaf , now I'd want about 25 Kwh.

    Wind turbines would be a lot more practical but wind turbines, again are a ridiculous price. Made sure by the powers that be so we won't install them.

    If it costs 15-20K euro's for a tiny 3 Kw turbine then what't the point ? If I were to run the car and house + heating then I'd probably need a 10 Kw turbine which would cost a small fortune probably exceeding 50K inclusive of battery for this amount of storage, perhaps when the battery would be full I could then divert the energy to storage heaters but in Summer this energy would be wasted.

    Then there are so many houses and apartments that will still be at the mercy of the big energy companies. Most people won't have the space for wind turbines and Solar suitable for all their power requirements.



    Maplin are a rip off. You can buy solar PV in 5 kw/p quantities for about 5K Euro's or slightly less these days but the installation in Ireland.

    In Ireland wind power is king, but I would install a hybrid system of wind and solar.



    Maybe Elon will start producing solar PV cells and wind turbines and drive down the cost.

    It's just a shame the Irish Government don't even have any micro generation program on the radar, it's going to be at least a decade or more because the ESB , Eirgrid etc, will have to upgrade the network ( probably an excuse)

    Germany are many years ahead of us, my Partner's Parents in Germany have 14 Kw/p on the roof and on a Sunny day can generate just over 70 Kwh. And most of what the generate in Winter goes to the storage heaters.

    But as they say Ireland is years ahead of Germany when it comes to EV Public charging which is true. The German car companies are very anti EV and the Government provide 0 incentives for electrics. I mean absolutely 0 !!!

    With the "New" UK government in power for the next 5 years having abolished the Solar subsidy,and the N.I "Rocs" system to follow the same fate this will mean up to 4,000 jobs will go in the Solar industry in N.I. (Jamie Delargy,UTV news) last week.


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    #9
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    reboot wrote: »
    With the "New" UK government in power for the next 5 years having abolished the Solar subsidy,and the N.I "Rocs" system to follow the same fate this will mean up to 4,000 jobs will go in the Solar industry in N.I. (Jamie Delargy,UTV news) last week.

    It's sad to think what could be done if Governments only had the willpower. We're been kept in the dark ages when it comes to renewable energy.

    It seems both Governments will continue to use our money to support big commercial wind farm investors but not little o'l us for micro generation.


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    #10
    cros13
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭cros13


    Deleted User wrote: »
    2,300 for the 10 Kw seems incredibly cheap, even in pounds. Is this after all European extortion taxes are applied ?

    To install it will probably cost another 5,000 Euro's or more because of the way we're ripped off in Ireland for pretty much everything !

    I have a reservation in already for three 7 kWh powerwall units. German prices are €3000 ex VAT. Single Market. I always buy this stuff myself and pay to install to have a full view of the costs, I almost always end up ahead.

    Installation is simple, a lot is integrated. you just need to bolt it to the wall and pay an electrician to cable it to your islanding inverter.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    The 10 Kwh battery would have met my needs before I got the Leaf , now I'd want about 25 Kwh.

    You can stack the powerwalls up to nine deep. No additional equipment required (output per powerwall is limited by the built-in inverter to 3.6kW sustained). The 10kWh units are weekly cycle and the 7kWh is daily cycle and the only suitable model for an EV owner.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Wind turbines would be a lot more practical but wind turbines, again are a ridiculous price. Made sure by the powers that be so we won't install them.

    Nope, the only place wind makes sense is in a Hybrid system with solar or solar/hydro. The cost per KW is five times solar. On the system I'm building the wind turbine is an optional extra. The government doesn't really have anything to do with why turbines are expensive. I'd actually be strongly against grant aid for domestic wind turbines.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    If it costs 15-20K euro's for a tiny 3 Kw turbine then what't the point ? If I were to run the car and house + heating then I'd probably need a 10 Kw turbine which would cost a small fortune probably exceeding 50K inclusive of battery for this amount of storage, perhaps when the battery would be full I could then divert the energy to storage heaters but in Summer this energy would be wasted.

    Yup, Wind doesn't make any sense. A similar solar system to handle all you power need would require 11KWp of Solar Panels ( €8,400 | 42 260w panels @ €200 per panel), a grid tie inverter with islanding (€3,000) and at least three 7kWh powerwalls (€3,000 plus VAT each). Payback would be in 8-10 years.

    However if we got a feed-in tariff of 9c/kWh, with an import export meter on the night rate you could more than meet your needs with 5KWp of panels (19 panels | €3,800) and a standard grid-tie inverter (€1,000) which you'd get payback on in four to five years, all while balancing the grid during peak demand.

    But with the option of a feed-in tariff you can start small and build up the system as prices drop.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Then there are so many houses and apartments that will still be at the mercy of the big energy companies. Most people won't have the space for wind turbines and Solar suitable for all their power requirements.

    True, but that's what the grid is for.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Maplin are a rip off. You can buy solar PV in 5 kw/p quantities for about 5K Euro's or slightly less these days but the installation in Ireland.

    Installation isn't that hard. You can DIY or pay a roofer to fit the clips and an electrician to fit the inverter.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Maybe Elon will start producing solar PV cells and wind turbines and drive down the cost.

    He is. Solarcity acquired Silevo and are planning a massive new plant. Wind turbines are a waste of time.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    It's just a shame the Irish Government don't even have any micro generation program on the radar, it's going to be at least a decade or more because the ESB , Eirgrid etc, will have to upgrade the network ( probably an excuse)

    Solar's got so cheap at this point that I could personally make it work if they paid me the wholesale market rate. But at the moment you get paid absolutely nothing for feeding into the grid.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Germany are many years ahead of us, my Partner's Parents in Germany have 14 Kw/p on the roof and on a Sunny day can generate just over 70 Kwh. And most of what the generate in Winter goes to the storage heaters.

    Everywhere south of the M7 has similar insolation rates to northern Bavaria.
    Just to annoy you further: In germany you can get a home energy storage grant for €3,000 for that 7kWh powerwall.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    But as they say Ireland is years ahead of Germany when it comes to EV Public charging which is true. The German car companies are very anti EV and the Government provide 0 incentives for electrics. I mean absolutely 0 !!!

    They are aware how far behind they are and have a major rapid charger rollout starting this year. Over 600 chargers.

    The biggest problem is that the network is balkanised with the six regional utilities having their own card system.


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    #11
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    cros13 wrote: »
    I have a reservation in already for three 7 kWh powerwall units. German prices are €3000 ex VAT. Single Market. I always buy this stuff myself and pay to install to have a full view of the costs, I almost always end up ahead.

    Installation is simple, a lot is integrated. you just need to bolt it to the wall and pay an electrician to cable it to your islanding inverter.

    21K is well above my budget for such thing in all fairness and that;s before VAT and installation be it electrician fees or whatever.

    And I would need at least 30 kwh of storage if I were to go off grid. That cost is prohibitive for most people, though I do have the Leaf to charge, I could probably get away with 22 Kwh for the house and EV but I'd need to size it about 30 kwh. You should always over size when it comes to battery storage to maximise life.
    cros13 wrote: »
    Nope, the only place wind makes sense is in a Hybrid system with solar or solar/hydro. The cost per KW is five times solar. On the system I'm building the wind turbine is an optional extra. The government doesn't really have anything to do with why turbines are expensive. I'd actually be strongly against grant aid for domestic wind turbines.

    Yes this is the way I would go , hybrid because solar on short cloudy winter days will not power your house or charge your car, in My partners parents house with 14 Kw/p on a short cloudy winter day they could generate as little as 1-2 Kwh and if there is snow on the roof 0, though we have to worry a lot less about snow. The point being you simply can't rely on Solar alone in Ireland. Wind is our greatest potential so a small turbine maybe 2-3 kw with about 5-7 Kw/p of solar could generate all your energy though this depends on site location, wind etc but a wind turbine in Ireland has the potential to generate a significant amount of energy.
    cros13 wrote: »
    Yup, Wind doesn't make any sense. A similar solar system to handle all you power need would require 11KWp of Solar Panels ( €8,400 | 42 260w panels @ €200 per panel), a grid tie inverter with islanding (€3,000) and at least three 7kWh powerwalls (€3,000 plus VAT each). Payback would be in 8-10 years.

    But you can't rely on that solar all year even with storage, all the storage in the world is no good if you haven't the energy to store.

    This is where the grid-tie system works best because all the excess you generate in the long summer hours you will buy back in winter and you don't have to spend money on battery storage which for the EV owner could be significant.
    cros13 wrote: »
    However if we got a feed-in tariff of 9c/kWh, with an import export meter on the night rate you could more than meet your needs with 5KWp of panels (19 panels | €3,800) and a standard grid-tie inverter (€1,000) which you'd get payback on in four to five years, all while balancing the grid during peak demand.


    Yes grid tie is best and I have 21 kwh of storage in the Leaf sitting waiting to be used for some storage already, when I come home I have at least 5 kwh remaining, more than enough to provide power for cooking and everything else. And/or the ESB could even take 2-3 Kwh from the car if I wished.

    When EV batteries get larger most people on Earth won't be driving more then about 150 miles a day max, the majority of Drivers on Earth probably drive a max of 50 miles a day and less.

    The Model S 85 kwh battery is so large that most people would have about 60-70 Kwh of storage going to waste waiting for the 2% of the time people might need more than 200 miles in a day so there is significant potential to use this energy in the future and I believe the ESB are already looking into this.
    cros13 wrote: »
    Solarcity acquired Silevo and are planning a massive new plant. Wind turbines are a waste of time.

    Yes I forgot about solarcity :D
    cros13 wrote: »
    Solar's got so cheap at this point that I could personally make it work if they paid me the wholesale market rate. But at the moment you get paid absolutely nothing for feeding into the grid.

    It will work but not all year, not at the height of winter.

    cros13 wrote: »
    Just to annoy you further: In germany you can get a home energy storage grant for €3,000 for that 7kWh powerwall.

    Germany has a lot bigger economy than Ireland they are much, much richer and have the money to spend. I'm not saying we should spend what they do on micro generation but we should do something to encourage a greater uptake of renewable energy.

    cros13 wrote: »
    They are aware how far behind they are and have a major rapid charger rollout starting this year. Over 600 chargers.

    The biggest problem is that the network is balkanised with the six regional utilities having their own card system.

    The Government should insist on one card for every charge point.

    They will install more ev charge points but afaik they plan only CCS and no ChaDeMo which is ridiculous. But they want to do as much as they can to hinder ev progress.


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    #12
    cros13
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭cros13


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It will work but not all year, not at the height of winter.

    I'm in a bit of a unique situation because I'm planning just over 14kW of micro-hydro as well as solar.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    They will install more ev charge points but afaik they plan only CCS and no ChaDeMo which is ridiculous. But they want to do as much as they can to hinder ev progress.

    Nope, the requirement in the law is that all rapid charging locations will have to have CCS and a backup AC charger in addition to whatever connectors they want. So you can have ChaDeMo but you'll also have to have CCS and a seperate minimum 7kW AC charger in case the rapid charger is down.

    Existing locations don't have to comply until 2018. What will be interesting is whether Tesla will provide CCS and AC at supercharger locations.


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