Nationality?

nastypiranha

Hello everyone,

Not 100% sure if this is the right place, but as it's a personal issue I guess it's close

Long story short, I'm trying to change my name and I need to figure out my Nationality. Might seem like something I should know but I'm getting more confused the more I read into it.

I was born in June 1976 in Bangor and my birth was registered in Northern Ireland (Have the two birth certs) both my parents are Scottish. Not long after I was born my parents moved back to Scotland and I was raised here and stayed here (never had a passport).

So while on my search about this I spoke to CAB (Scotland) and i was informed that I couldn't say I was British as I was born and registered in Ireland that makes me Irish not British even tho I only lived there for such a small part of my 38 years on this planet. So ever since that when I've applied for job's or been asked I've just selected Irish which then leads to the you don't sound very Irish remarks.

So back to the name changing from what I've read I need to do this at the nidirect dot gov dot uk website to get new birth cert's. So speaking to CAB once again and they stated I could do this at gov dot uk but this ask's the question "What section am I in accordance with the British Nationality Act 1981?"

So any help would be great

bee06

Since Bangor is in Northern Ireland I though you were able to choose Irish or British citizenship? I can't imagine all the Ulster Unionists would be happy being told they were Irish.

__oc__

I was born in Northern Ireland and had no problem getting a British passport when I moved to the south I had no problem getting an Irish passport when the British one ran out. I don't see you having any problem saying that you are British or Irish it's all personal preference

blatantrereg

Are you sure you will get a new birth cert?
Usually a name change is represented by a deed poll, which is a legal document. The birth cert is not changed.

silverfeather

I think you are allowed to be either or even both.

nastypiranha

Thank you everyone for your time and advice and nice simple answers, It really has helped me out

@bee06
lol

@blatantrereg

If i go through the nidirect website the "APPLICATION FOR RECORDING OF CHANGE OF NAME OR SURNAME
OF PERSON OVER 18 YEARS OF AGE" application forms states:

Anyone aged 18 or over who’s birth was registered in Northern Ireland.

The completed form and payment should be returned to this office at the address above. Your application should be processed within 15 working days of receipt. The changed name or surname will be shown on your birth certificate.

When calculating the fees please include the fee for the name change together with the fee for any certificates.

Number and type of Certificate(s) required □ Full □ Short

This is where i get a bit confused as if i went the nidirect form its £36, if i go the deed poll way I would still have my old birth certs which costs £36 for the official documents with no new documents So I'll need to figure out if I would have to do both.

silverfeather

You night get more informed answers in Legal issues op.

nastypiranha

I think it would be now , my main question has been answered thank you again everyone.

Have to admit i do find this board a bit overwhelming with all the category's. but i'll find my feet (i hope lol)

nastypiranha

Just a wee update incase anyone has the same question and stumbles across this post: I received a reply from the NI General Register Office:

As you were born in NI, you can change the name on your birth entry via a recorded change of name. You need to complete a name change application form and have it witnessed by a justice of the peace, notary public, lay magistrate or solicitor. The cost is £50 and includes a new certificate.



Please see link for form. Please note that deed poll name changes are nothing to do with this office and do not have any impact on your birth registration. It is a separate process and usually done by people who cannot change the name on the birth entry.

So that's me all sorted now so thank you's all once again

Chemical Byrne

You were born in the UK
You lived in the UK all your life.
You are British or maybe Northern Irish if you want to be particular about it.
Either way, you are a citizen of the UK by birth.

You are not "Irish" in the most common meaning of that nationality, ie referring to the Republic of Ireland.

nastypiranha

Seems a rather hostile reply there, but regardless of intent you did raise a valid point! So it seems the search may go on.

Now I came across this:

People born in Northern Ireland are, with some exceptions, deemed by UK law to be citizens of the United Kingdom. They are also, with similar exceptions, entitled to be citizens of Ireland. This entitlement was reaffirmed in the 1998 Good Friday Agreement between the British and Irish governments, which provides that:

...it is the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose, and accordingly [the two governments] confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.

As a result of the Agreement, the Constitution of the Republic of Ireland was amended. The current wording provides that people born in Northern Ireland are entitled to be Irish citizens on the same basis as people from any other part of the island of Ireland.[57]

Neither government, however, extends its citizenship to all persons born in Northern Ireland. Both governments exclude some people born in Northern Ireland, in particular persons born without one parent who is a British or Irish citizen. The Irish restriction was given effect by the Twenty-seventh amendment to the Irish Constitution in 2004. The position in UK nationality law is that most of those born in Northern Ireland are UK nationals, whether or not they so choose. Renunciation of British citizenship requires the payment of a fee, currently £229.

nastypiranha

Right I'm getting myself confused by trying to process far to much information, I'm bouncing between all-sorts, crossing the thin line between nationality and citizenship, as-well as other issues I haven't contemplated like my family tree.

I found out that my great-grandmother was a McNeilly from down, her parents both Irish (my great,great grandparents, not sure before that). And on the other side of the tree my great,great,great grandmother was a Nelson also from Northern Ireland and I didn't even need to know that (Glad i do, but)

And it's just my view (So not to offend anyone) I'm not bothered about my citizenship, in this day and age everyone can have any citizenship they want just takes time or money

So as it stands my Nationality is either Northern Irish, Irish or British! just whatever I want it to be.

So thank you everyone yet again and I have got the answer and I'm leaving that at that!

CaraMay

But not because both your parents are Scottish. I don't think you are entitled to be NI British or Irish as neither of your parents are.

You need to find a citizens advice bureau and ask there.

nastypiranha

CaraMay wrote: »

But not because both your parents are Scottish. I don't think you are entitled to be NI British or Irish as neither of your parents are.

You need to find a citizens advice bureau and ask there.

I contacted the Scottish CAB and they have stated my nationality is Irish as Northern Ireland is my country of birth. To reaffirm this I've asked on here and most assumed this to be correct.

It's like the whole process that brought about this changing my name. (Scottish CAB)

because you were born and registered in Northern Ireland you cannot go through the Scottish Office

So I've emailed the Belfast CAB explaining the whole situation and they can take up to 5 days to reply so should know 100% by Friday latest on what there views are.

But from what I'm reading:

People born in Northern Ireland are, with some exceptions, deemed by UK law to be citizens of the United Kingdom. They are also, with similar exceptions, entitled to be citizens of Ireland. This entitlement was reaffirmed in the 1998 Good Friday Agreement between the British and Irish governments, which provides that:

...it is the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose, and accordingly [the two governments] confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.

As a result of the Agreement, the Constitution of the Republic of Ireland was amended. The current wording provides that people born in Northern Ireland are entitled to be Irish citizens on the same basis as people from any other part of the island of Ireland.[57]

Neither government, however, extends its citizenship to all persons born in Northern Ireland. Both governments exclude some people born in Northern Ireland, in particular persons born without one parent who is a British or Irish citizen. The Irish restriction was given effect by the Twenty-seventh amendment to the Irish Constitution in 2004.

I've also read the:
Nineteenth Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland
Twenty-seventh Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland

And all these are referring too is Citizenship and whether I have the birthright to Irish Citizenship or would I have to obtain it through other means.

This is where its crossing over from something as simple as my nationality being Northern Irish, Irish, or British to Northern Ireland, Irish or British Citizenship which is something else.

So anyway as I said I've contact the Belfast CAB not sure if involving the Republic of Ireland CAB office would be beneficial or add anything? But I'll update this thread with what they reply.

shaymus27

Both your parents are Scottish, you were born in Northern Ireland, You should be entitled to be a British Citizen.

I always thought Great Britain was the 3 mainland countries and the UK was Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Technically this should make you United Kingdomish ????????? or Northern Irish ??????? Is there such a thing as a Northern Ireland passport or a United Kingdom passport?

How can a Northern Ireland-born person who has not claimed Irish (Republic of Ireland) citizenship be British if Great Britain relates to the 3 mainland countries, and the UK refers to the 3 mainland countries plus Northern Ireland be British unless British relates to all of the United Kingdom, in which case there seems to be a difference between what you would expect to be British - i.e. someone born in Great Britain and what is actually British - i.e. someone born in the United Kingdom but not necessarily Great Britain?

nastypiranha

shaymus27 wrote: »

Both your parents are Scottish, you were born in Northern Ireland, You should be entitled to be a British Citizen.

I always thought Great Britain was the 3 mainland countries and the UK was Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Yeah that's right I am really a UK citizen as you rightly say that NI isn't apart of Great Britain. It's Great Britain and Ireland that make up the UK!

Technically this should make you United Kingdomish ????????? or Northern Irish ??????? Is there such a thing as a Northern Ireland passport or a United Kingdom passport?

Nope only passport for the UK is the British one (In my situation)

How can a Northern Ireland-born person who has not claimed Irish (Republic of Ireland) citizenship be British if Great Britain relates to the 3 mainland countries, and the UK refers to the 3 mainland countries plus Northern Ireland be British unless British relates to all of the United Kingdom, in which case there seems to be a difference between what you would expect to be British - i.e. someone born in Great Britain and what is actually British - i.e. someone born in the United Kingdom but not necessarily Great Britain?[/QUOTE]

That's it, its all complete nonsense!

But rather than sitting and waiting I think I have found the answer to my question and it's pretty much what CaraMay stated. I have indeed no claim to being Irish, Northern Irish, Scottish, England or Welsh and even technically British.

As the land I was born in is outside Britain, but within the United Kingdom and that doesn't even have a nationality unless you want to apply Britain which yet again as the land i was born in falls outside of Britain.

So all I could do is take on my parents nationality of being Scottish which left being an option in 1707 same as being English. So I need to take British nationality as my own!

I read up about Sam Neill (The actor)who was born in Northern Ireland, to army parents, an English-born mother, Priscilla Beatrice (Ingham), and a New Zealand-born father, Dermot Neill. His family returned to the South Island of New Zealand in 1954 and his nationality is listed as New Zealand, British.

So all i can conclude is the simple answer is I can only be British!

shaymus27

You really need to get this issue sorted out ASAP.

If you ever have kids and they are good at sport, for example, a son who is good at football, he needs to know what country he qualifies to play for. The Rep. of Ireland has had a number of players born in Northern Ireland who declared for the Republic. On your side if you had kids they would not be able to play for the Republic so the nationality of whoever you have a kid with will play a part in who your kid might be able to play for.

Recently there was discussion of what "Country" Rory McIlroy would play for, I can't remember what tournament but it was a choice between Ireland and Great Britain. His predicament illustrates the confusion about whether someone born in Northern Ireland is British or Irish and I think his choice did not involve the UK as there is no UK in sport. How could he be able to choose Great Britain when GB is the mainland countries? I think it was the next Olympics but am not sure. It was definitely talked about as I think he said at one stage he didn't really feel Irish or felt more British, something like that.

Trying to use sporting country allegiances to get clarity but I'm still confused.

LegacyUser

OP your really over thinking this, you are British, end of. British citizenship is not defined by Great Britain as it covers the channel islands and the isle of man as well as places like the Falklands and Gibraltar. And anyway your parents are British therefore you are British regardless of were you were born.

The issue is you are living in Scotland and Scotland, having it's out government, has different rules to the rest of the UK. You can only change your name in Scotland if you were born there, which you were not so you will need to fill out the forums and send them to London. All the information for this is on the gov.uk website.

You can change your name anytime you want, just start using the new name, but if you need official documents like a drivers license or passport changed that's when you go via deadpoll. If your looking to actually have information on your birth certificate changed this can only be done under specific situations (if you were transgender for example)

nastypiranha

shaymus27 wrote: »

You really need to get this issue sorted out ASAP.

If you ever have kids and they are good at sport, for example, a son who is good at football, he needs to know what country he qualifies to play for. The Rep. of Ireland has had a number of players born in Northern Ireland who declared for the Republic. On your side if you had kids they would not be able to play for the Republic so the nationality of whoever you have a kid with will play a part in who your kid might be able to play for.

Recently there was discussion of what "Country" Rory McIlroy would play for, I can't remember what tournament but it was a choice between Ireland and Great Britain. His predicament illustrates the confusion about whether someone born in Northern Ireland is British or Irish and I think his choice did not involve the UK as there is no UK in sport. How could he be able to choose Great Britain when GB is the mainland countries? I think it was the next Olympics but am not sure. It was definitely talked about as I think he said at one stage he didn't really feel Irish or felt more British, something like that.

Trying to use sporting country allegiances to get clarity but I'm still confused.

It's getting very very confusing as there was an answer lying under my nose the whole time :

The position in UK nationality law is that most of those born in Northern Ireland are UK nationals, whether or not they so choose.

so basically I'm British by Descent, so while reading up on that I came across this post from another forum

I have 'Right of Abode' in Britain, but because I was born in South Africa while my father was serving in the Royal Navy my descendants do not automatically acquire British Citizenship. That is in the gift of the Home Secretary. I was of course British when I was born and was included into my mother's passport. Subsequent changes to the Nationality Acts, designed to limit Commonwealth Immigration, deprived me and thousands of others of that status and created the second class category of 'British by Descent'. No doubt many of those in this classification are unaware of their true status and will remain so until one day one of their grandchildren applies for a British Passport.

so almost the same situation as myself. so doing something that wasn't that important has now lead to something that could have a big effect on my descendants.

I've said it a few times but really thank you to everyone who is offering advice and trying to help me figure this all out

Stavro Mueller

What I can't understand is how you can't be British. I mean, you were born in Northern Ireland which is part of the United Kingdom. Scotland's part of the United Kingdom. Both countries elect MPs to the same parliament. To the best of my knowledge there's no such thing as a Scottish/Northern Ireland passport. It's British ones people from those countries carry around with them. If you wanted to get an Irish passport, it's easier now in the wake of the Good Friday Agreement but that's a while other story.

shaymus27

Are you thinking of choosing a British or Irish name?

I don't think this will make any difference whatsoever, but keep it simple - if your name is completely inconsistent with your passport nationality it might give rise to a little suspicion at airports and you don't need any more hassle in any area.

I've no idea about profiling people but keeping it consistent would reduce the chances of you being profiled. Inconsistencies I would imagine might give rise to suspicion the way things are these days.

nastypiranha

shaymus27 wrote: »

Are you thinking of choosing a British or Irish name?

I don't think this will make any difference whatsoever, but keep it simple - if your name is completely inconsistent with your passport nationality it might give rise to a little suspicion at airports and you don't need any more hassle in any area.

I've no idea about profiling people but keeping it consistent would reduce the chances of you being profiled. Inconsistencies I would imagine might give rise to suspicion the way things are these days.

my name change was pretty simple. It was more to do with dissociation a family member that's became a big thorn in my side so change name, move and then get a peaceful life well I was hoping for one.

I've never had my own passport was only my mothers as a child but when we moved here we lived in Glasgow for 4 years and they moved up to the highlands and with my bikes,cars and nice roads I've never felt the need to go abroad

@Stavro Mueller
I'm am pretty sure I will be British, it just doesn't make a lot of sense how I can be when NI isn't apart of Britain. The important question would be to find out what kind of British I'm labelled with as its been pointed out it could affect a descendant.

Stavro Mueller

Just to clarify - when you say "apart of Britain" do you mean it's a part of Britain or separate to it?

shaymus27

Stavro Mueller wrote: »

What I can't understand is how you can't be British. I mean, you were born in Northern Ireland which is part of the United Kingdom. Scotland's part of the United Kingdom. Both countries elect MPs to the same parliament. To the best of my knowledge there's no such thing as a Scottish/Northern Ireland passport. It's British ones people from those countries carry around with them. If you wanted to get an Irish passport, it's easier now in the wake of the Good Friday Agreement but that's a while other story.

I think what has confused the Op is that he can't understand is how he COULD be British if you accept that to be British you would think you have to be from Britain. Yet Great Britain does not involve Northern Ireland. How did it come to pass that Northern Ireland people are British when you would think you would have to be from Britain to be British? Britain to me is Great Britain - the 3 mainland countries.

Presume some legislation was passed at some stage but if you look up an Atlas you will find Great Britain is the 3 mainland countries.

LegacyUser

shaymus27 wrote: »

Presume some legislation was passed at some stage but if you look up an Atlas you will find Great Britain is the 3 mainland countries.

It's a difference between geography and politics. Geographically the island that is Scotland, England and Wales are Great Britain. The country is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland but as that's a mouthful it's commonly called the UK or Britain. Just like USA can be refereed to as America even though geographically America covers several countries.

Someone being British is not limited to people born on the Island of Great Britain, it covers several areas in the British isles and also several areas around the world which are overseas territories.

nastypiranha

Just as shaymus27 said! not really much more I could add so thank you shaymus27

Chemical Byrne

No offence OP but you are totally over analyzing this.

You are British. You will be getting a British passport. Get over it, seriously!

ShowMeTheCash

Born in NI before 2005 then you can claim dual citizenship.. Your parents could be from Timbuktu you can claim either passport and or citizenship.

The whole birthcert for changing the name simply was due to going back to where the birth was originally registered..

nastypiranha

I wasn't interested in citizenship all I was interested in was nationality. If I could be classed as Northern Irish, Irish or British! or I just had to list my nationality as British with no other claims other than NI as my country of birth.

So on my little quest, I've failed to pick-up on what might be (using that very loosey) a bit of important information.

I wrote:

I found out that my great-grandmother was a McNeilly from down, her parents both Irish (my great,great grandparents, not sure before that). And on the other side of the tree my great,great,great grandmother was a Nelson also from Northern Ireland and I didn't even need to know that (Glad i do, but)

So while reading the citizensinformation ie website:

Children born outside Ireland to Irish citizen parents
If either of your parents was an Irish citizen who was born in Ireland, then you are automatically an Irish citizen, irrespective of your place of birth.

So this if I'm not mistaken would make my grandfather a dual citizen. So not sure if this would pass on to my mother (maybe at a stretch ) could of been entitled to become a Irish citizen by registering her birth at the FBR.

inis gov ie website:

If you were born outside Ireland to an Irish citizen who was himself or herself born outside Ireland, and any of your grandparents were born in Ireland, then you are entitled to become an Irish citizen, and can do so by having your birth registered in the Foreign Births Register

then we have the:

it is the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose, and accordingly [the two governments] confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.

As a result of the Agreement, the Constitution of the Republic of Ireland was amended. The current wording provides that people born in Northern Ireland are entitled to be Irish citizens on the same basis as people from any other part of the island of Ireland.

Neither government, however, extends its citizenship to all persons born in Northern Ireland. Both governments exclude some people born in Northern Ireland, in particular persons born without one parent who is a British or Irish citizen. The Irish restriction was given effect by the Twenty-seventh amendment to the Irish Constitution in 2004.[/quote]

cros13

nastypiranha wrote: »

I wasn't interested in citizenship all I was interested in was nationality. If I could be classed as Northern Irish, Irish or British! or I just had to list my nationality as British with no other claims other than NI as my country of birth.

Citizenship and Nationality law depends entirely on who you are talking to.

To the UK Government:

You are a British Citizen by reason of your birth to at least one British Citizen parent in the UK.

By reason of your birth in Northern Ireland, UK nationality law and the agreements between the RoI and UK governments the UK explicitly excludes RoI citizenship from regulations regarding dual citizenship and loss of nationality.

To the Irish Government:

You are entitled to Irish citizenship on the basis of your birth on the Island of Ireland (which includes both RoI and NI) before 2005 (or if after 2005 you would also be entitled based on having at least one British parent while born on the Island of Ireland). You are not an Irish citizen until you perform an act that only an Irish citizen can perform, i.e. registering to vote in the republic or applying for a passport. Your dual citizenship is permitted under Irish law.

However the normal master nationality rules of dual citizenship apply. While you are in the UK or entering the UK you are a British Citizen, if you take up an Irish Citizenship as well you will be an Irish Citizen while in or entering the Republic of Ireland. That means you need to use the correct passport for both, though due to the CTA agreements enforcement of this rule is lax. While outside of either country you can be either, based on your own choice. Many dual citizens prefer to travel under an Irish passport as it's generally safer (particularly in the middle east) and easier than using a UK passport, for example you can travel easier to countries like Iran on an Irish passport.

You are a British Citizen with an entitlement to Irish Citizenship. End of story, other means by which you may have acquired either citizenship are trumped by the ones I've mentioned and those are the only paths you ever need to mention.

I'd be careful with the terminology, the answer to the question Nationality: for you is British Citizen. Someone described as a British National could for example have no automatic right to live in the UK, unlike you.

cros13

Irish citizenship is a bit weird in the UK context as well.

Because while the Republic of Ireland considers the UK to be a foreign country, due to the UK's Ireland Act and other legislation the Republic of Ireland is not a foreign country for the purposes of UK law.

That and the interaction of a number of other laws and regulations leads to weird effects like:

Irish citizens are considered "settled" in the UK the minute they set foot on British soil and can vote in parliamentary elections and referenda. But British Citizens can't vote in referenda in Ireland.

Irish citizens can have UK security clearances and hold high military ranks and positions in UK government otherwise restricted to British Citizens. In fact a fair proportion of the british army is composed of Irish citizens not entitled to British citizenship.

Irish citizens are not required to register or carry ID in the UK and have freedom of movement and employment without relying on EU treaty rights. It's also difficult to prevent an Irish citizen entry to the UK because they have a right to be there.

ShowMeTheCash

cros13 wrote: »

Irish citizenship is a bit weird in the UK context as well.

Because while the Republic of Ireland considers the UK to be a foreign country, due to the UK's Ireland Act and other legislation the Republic of Ireland is not a foreign country for the purposes of UK law.

That and the interaction of a number of other laws and regulations leads to weird effects like:

Irish citizens are considered "settled" in the UK the minute they set foot on British soil and can vote in parliamentary elections and referenda. But British Citizens can't vote in referenda in Ireland.

Irish citizens can have UK security clearances and hold high military ranks and positions in UK government otherwise restricted to British Citizens. In fact a fair proportion of the british army is composed of Irish citizens not entitled to British citizenship.

Irish citizens are not required to register or carry ID in the UK and have freedom of movement and employment without relying on EU treaty rights. It's also difficult to prevent an Irish citizen entry to the UK because they have a right to be there.

You will find that Irish citizens will not have high security clearance when it comes to the Ministry of defense.

cros13

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

You will find that Irish citizens will not have high security clearance when it comes to the Ministry of defense.

There's no restriction in the defense vetting rules, SC isn't a problem but there's a higher bar for DV for Irish Citizens and there are some restrictions on certain materials and some kinds of UK eyes only material, particularly comsec. Irish citizens in the British Army are "deemed to have given their allegiance to the crown" according to the DVA regs and don't usually have an issue. Working in GCHQ is off limits and so is anything that involves NI, but other than that I've seen Irish civilians get DV clearance, maybe taking a few months longer for vetting and requiring a more compelling reason why they need clearance.

In saying that I have heard of dual citizens being asked to give up the Irish citizenship, but then again I also know people who DVA asked to divorce their spouse.

ShowMeTheCash

cros13 wrote: »

There's no restriction in the defense vetting rules, SC isn't a problem but there's a higher bar for DV for Irish Citizens and there are some restrictions on certain materials and some kinds of UK eyes only material, particularly comsec. Irish citizens in the British Army are "deemed to have given their allegiance to the crown" according to the DVA regs and don't usually have an issue. Working in GCHQ is off limits and so is anything that involves NI, but other than that I've seen Irish civilians get DV clearance, maybe taking a few months longer for vetting and requiring a more compelling reason why they need clearance.

In saying that I have heard of dual citizens being asked to give up the Irish citizenship, but then again I also know people who DVA asked to divorce their spouse.

The higher bar in some circumstances cannot be obtained you are simply ruled out... Albeit they do not say that at the beginning.