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Anyone take a job in a Gaelscoil and not fluent in Irish?

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  • 05-05-2015 7:42pm
    #1
    durtybit
    Registered Users Posts: 384 ✭✭


    Have someone I know on the panel for primary schools and might end up in a Gaelscoil. Not fluent in Irish...Anyone else ever in this predicament ?


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    #2
    peckerhead
    Registered Users Posts: 3,379 ✭✭✭peckerhead


    durtybit wrote: »
    Have someone I know on the panel for primary schools and might end up in a Gaelscoil. Not fluent in Irish...Anyone else ever in this predicament ?

    The predicament of using connections to land a job you're not qualified for, at the expense of bona fides applicants?

    No.


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    #3
    durtybit
    Registered Users Posts: 384 ✭✭durtybit


    peckerhead wrote: »
    The predicament of using connections to land a job you're not qualified for, at the expense of bona fides applicants?

    No.

    :rolleyes: Peckerhead for sure. I don't know where you got that information from my initial post.


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    #4
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    durtybit wrote: »
    :rolleyes: Peckerhead for sure. I don't know where you got that information from my initial post.
    I would think it's because primary teachers are supposed to be fluent in Irish so if someone wound up in primary teaching claiming not to be fluent in Irish it raises questions. Just a guess.

    Primary teachers who aren't fluent in Irish should consider retraining, either to raise their level of Irish to the required standard or to find a new line of work.


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    #5
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    durtybit wrote: »
    :rolleyes: Peckerhead for sure. I don't know where you got that information froschoolm my initial post.

    I could read like 'you have someone you know on 'your' interview panel for your school'

    Are you talking about a redeployment panel?
    If its primary it might be assumed that all teachers have reasonable fluency in Irish, no!


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    #6
    durtybit
    Registered Users Posts: 384 ✭✭durtybit


    RealJohn wrote: »
    I would think it's because primary teachers are supposed to be fluent in Irish so if someone wound up in primary teaching claiming not to be fluent in Irish it raises questions. Just a guess.

    When you say supposed to be? I don't believe they are "required" to be fluent. Obviously in this case of an all Irish speaking school it would be understandable.
    RealJohn wrote: »
    Primary teachers who aren't fluent in Irish should consider retraining, either to raise their level of Irish to the required standard or to find a new line of work.

    I think this could affect quite a high number of teachers an I don't believe you need to be fluent to teach what is taught in English speaking schools


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    #7
    durtybit
    Registered Users Posts: 384 ✭✭durtybit


    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    I could read like 'you have someone you know on 'your' interview panel for your school'

    Are you talking about a redeployment panel?
    If its primary it might be assumed that all teachers have reasonable fluency in Irish, no!

    Redeployment Panel. It might be assumed alright and it certainly might be the case but it still would be daunting to have to do all lessons in Irish as opposed to just one.


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    #8
    durtybit
    Registered Users Posts: 384 ✭✭durtybit


    RealJohn wrote: »
    Primary teachers who aren't fluent in Irish should consider training

    This is certainly an option to bring it up to speed.

    It might be a good learning experience working in an all Irish school


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    #9
    blatantrereg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,743 ✭✭✭blatantrereg


    Don't accept a position in a Gaelscoil if you're not fluent in Irish.

    Up to your own judgement at what point you might need to mention it. You might get away with not mentioning it if you get offered somewhere else. Just important not to take on a role you aren't competent for.

    I reckon very many primary teachers aren't fluent in Irish, and I reckon it doesn't impede their ability to do their jobs in general; but obviously in a Gaelscoil it would.


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    #10
    durtybit
    Registered Users Posts: 384 ✭✭durtybit


    blatantrereg wrote: »
    Don't accept a position in a Gaelscoil if you're not fluent in Irish.

    Up to your own judgement at what point you might need to mention it. You might get away with not mentioning it if you get offered somewhere else. Just important not to take on a role you aren't competent for.

    I reckon very many primary teachers aren't fluent in Irish, and I reckon it doesn't impede their ability to do their jobs in general; but obviously in a Gaelscoil it would.

    Just to be clear this is not myself, I am not a teacher. This position might be forced and not accepted

    This persons Irish may be up to scratch but not confident with a new environment (possibly might work out ok)

    My original question was directed at someone who might have been redeployed to an Irish speaking school and not by choice.


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    #11
    Ging Ging
    Registered Users Posts: 268 ✭✭Ging Ging


    Surely the board of management and/or principal would be wide to this obvious potential problem for the school's ethos. I would imagine they would make enquiries with the panel candidate as Gaeilge before a formal offer was made rather than risk forcing acceptance on a non-Gaeiloir candidate, fearful of losing their panel rights by declining an offer.
    Subterfuge by a candidate (or school for that matter) could lead to a hostile work environment which would be unlikely to work out well for anyone involve.


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    #12
    durtybit
    Registered Users Posts: 384 ✭✭durtybit


    Ging Ging wrote: »
    Surely the board of management and/or principal would be wide to this obvious potential problem for the school's ethos. I would imagine they would make enquiries with the panel candidate as Gaeilge before a formal offer was made rather than risk forcing acceptance on a non-Gaeiloir candidate, fearful of losing their panel rights by declining an offer.
    Subterfuge by a candidate (or school for that matter) could lead to a hostile work environment which would be unlikely to work out well for anyone involve.

    That would be my thinking yes.


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    #13
    peckerhead
    Registered Users Posts: 3,379 ✭✭✭peckerhead


    durtybit wrote: »
    My original question was directed at someone who might have been redeployed to an Irish speaking school and not by choice.
    Sorry, I got the wrong end of the stick completely — thought you were talking about an interview panel! :o


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    #14
    RH149
    Registered Users Posts: 349 ✭✭RH149


    While I'm sure lots of Primary teachers got an A or B1 in their LC Irish you only have to have a C in Higher Level Irish to get into Primary Teaching (not to be sniffed at I know but doesn't suggest fluency) so I imagine there are plenty of Primary teachers with competent to good Irish but not necessarily fluent......I don't think anyone should be working in a Gaelscoil though without being fluent as parents who send their children to those schools would quite rightly expect that standard of Irish. It would be seriously stressful for the teacher too...I imagine all staffroom chat and staff meetings are in Irish too?


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    #15
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,482 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    I work in a Gaelscoil and yes, everyone is expected to be very fluent. All meetings and staffroom chat are done entirely "as Gaeilge" and it is not fair on a teacher or their students if they do not have a very good level of fluency.


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    #16
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    <mod snip>
    misinterpretation of legitimate ambiguity has been clarified subsequently KD

    mod


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    #17
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    blatantrereg wrote: »
    Don't accept a position in a Gaelscoil if you're not fluent in Irish.

    .

    Easy to say "don't accept a position". A job is a job, not many people are able to turn one down


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    #18
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    katydid wrote: »
    Easy to say "don't accept a position". A job is a job, not many people are able to turn one down

    I dunno , I think the OP's concern/objection is legitimate given what others have said about the difference between 'having a high standard of Irish (hons Irish in LC) for primary teaching and having a fluent enough level to carry out their job throughout the day.

    Ideally primary teachers are supposed to be 'fluent' in every subject area they teach. But we all know that we have blind spots in certain areas and strengths in others.

    In saying that though Ive known teachers who have come from abroad and had to get the card teastais under the old system! So where theres a will theres a way once they are supported. If however theres resentment in the new school from the getgo then thats a horrible situation to be in, you'ld imagine anyone would be delighted to 'convert' a teacher to full fluency.


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    #19
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    I dunno , I think the OP's concern/objection is legitimate given what others have said about the difference between 'having a high standard of Irish (hons Irish in LC) for primary teaching and having a fluent enough level to carry out their job throughout the day.

    Ideally primary teachers are supposed to be 'fluent' in every subject area they teach. But we all know that we have blind spots in certain areas and strengths in others.

    In saying that though Ive known teachers who have come from abroad and had to get the card teastais under the old system! So where theres a will theres a way once they are supported. If however theres resentment in the new school from the getgo then thats a horrible situation to be in, you'ld imagine anyone would be delighted to 'convert' a teacher to full fluency.
    I do understand that, but if you are on a panel and told you have to go to a certain school, and you depend on your job to pay the bills, you dont' really have a choice.


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    #20
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    katydid wrote: »
    I do understand that, but if you are on a panel and told you have to go to a certain school, and you depend on your job to pay the bills, you dont' really have a choice.

    Communication is a serious issue though. To my mind the person may as well feel they are being redeployed to a school for the deaf. Sign language can be learned too btw so you could use the 'job to pay the bills' if such a redeployment was made to a school for the deaf aswell!
    I think its the time factor and fluency level which should be the schools concern in terms of the kids' education.


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    #21
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    Communication is a serious issue though. To my mind the person may as well feel they are being redeployed to a school for the deaf. Sign language can be learned too btw so you could use the 'job to pay the bills' if such a redeployment was made to a school for the deaf aswell!
    I think its the time factor and fluency level which should be the schools concern in terms of the kids' education.

    Oh of course it is. It depends on whether or not the person has a choice. If they have a choice, fine. If not, what can they do?


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    #22
    JTC83
    Registered Users Posts: 77 ✭✭JTC83


    Your friend will have had to tick a box on the panel application form to say that he/she is willing or interested in taking a job in a gaelscoil. It is not presumed that all teachers are either willing or able.
    The difficulty with not being fluent is paperwork. In a gaelscoil all planning, assessment, etc - everything - is through Irish. Which would be incredibly difficult without a high level of proficiency.


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    #23
    durtybit
    Registered Users Posts: 384 ✭✭durtybit


    JTC83 wrote: »
    Your friend will have had to tick a box on the panel application form to say that he/she is willing or interested in taking a job in a gaelscoil. It is not presumed that all teachers are either willing or able.

    Yes this is a "preference" but not a choice


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    #24
    JTC83
    Registered Users Posts: 77 ✭✭JTC83


    Yes, you're right, bit I've never heard of a gaelscoil looking to hire someone who didn't express an interest in working there. Obviously that's not to say it doesn't happen. Normally schools make contact with applicants prior to making an official job offer, to see whether they are interested/able to take the job.


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    #25
    durtybit
    Registered Users Posts: 384 ✭✭durtybit


    JTC83 wrote: »
    Yes, you're right, bit I've never heard of a gaelscoil looking to hire someone who didn't express an interest in working there. Obviously that's not to say it doesn't happen. Normally schools make contact with applicants prior to making an official job offer, to see whether they are interested/able to take the job.

    Everything you say is spot on but my concern is if that redeployment panel whittles to say 1 or 2 people it puts those "specialized" schools / teachers in an awkward position. I honestly don't know how it works on that end if they can then force a school to take someone on because they have to pick from the "pool" of teachers available until its exhausted.


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    #26
    JTC83
    Registered Users Posts: 77 ✭✭JTC83


    I can't speak for all areas, but in my area I know that the panel manager is quite realistic and approachable, and appreciates that is in nobody's best interest to force this. I'm not aware of it ever having arisen, but presume that schools that are hiding permanent jobs to give to people who do not have main panel rights (which is an extremely common occurrence, particularly in city schools) will be forced to give their, more suitable, jobs to the person with the panel rights.


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