Help with conifer ID

Jayzesake

Folks,

I'm not much good at identifying conifers other than our couple of natives when mature, and I'd like to know what this self-seeded sapling is. I'm hoping it's native Pinus sylvestris ('Scots' Pine), but it may be Pinus contorta (Lodgepole Pine) or another naturalised exotic pine. It's about 18 inches to 2' high and has what look to me like fairly distinctive growth candles. The needles emerge in pairs and are about 2" long, but afaik that is common to both of those species mentioned above.

Thanks for any help.

SILVAMAN

From the look I'd say it's lodgepole-bluish hue of Scots not apparent and bark colour not indicative of scots but the clincher is that the growth is too advanced for Scots for this time of year.

Jayzesake

SILVAMAN wrote: »

From the look I'd say it's lodgepole-bluish hue of Scots not apparent and bark colour not indicative of scots but the clincher is that the growth is too advanced for Scots for this time of year.

Thanks v. much Silvaman.

Any idea whether, over the next few years of growth, characteristics will emerge that will make an identification definite one way or the other?

It's growing in an area of regenerating native woodland where exotics such as rhododendron are removed, but I'd be sorry to take something out without being 100% certain of what it is. And if there's one, there are likely to be others.

SILVAMAN

There should be a bluish hue to the needles, the bud is markedly pointed, and there my a twist to the bud.

Capercaillie

Splish should provide a definitive answer:)

Jayzesake

I sent these same images to the Scottish organisation Trees for Life, as I know they have been making huge strides in recreating native woodland on what is practically a landscape scale there, both through planting and natural regeneration. Much of what they are doing would be applicable in Ireland, with similar climate, habitats etc. Their website http://treesforlife.org.uk/ shows volunteers removing exotic Lodgepole Pine, and planting Scots Pine, so I figured if anyone would know the difference, they would.

Anyways, I received the following very helpful reply from Craig Dickson today:
_____________________________________________

Today at 11:47 AM

Hi Xxxx,


Thanks for your email and positive support.


I have had a look at the photos and at first glance believe they are Scots pine as the needles look more blue/green (compared to lime green of Lodgepole), however there are a few checks you can do on the ground to make sure it is SP as the soil conditions can alter the colour and size of the needles considerably.


If the underside of the needles are more bluish than on top then that is a good indicator that they are SP, however if the needles are the same colour all over then I would say they are more likely to be LP.


I would also recommend taking some needles and snapping them in the middle to see how fibrous they are. If they are hairy then they are likely to be SP if they break relatively cleanly (with two or three fine fibres) then they are more likely to be LP.


There are more differences below.


Hope this helps.


With kind regards,


Craig Dickson
Conservation Week Coordinator
____________________________________________

I'll go back to the tree tomorrow and use these indicators to try and work out what it is.

Jayzesake

That attempt to cut and paste the differences didn't work very well, will type them out later, if anyone is interested.

Jayzesake

A comparison of Lodgepole Pine and Scots Pine

Scots Pine
Smell: Sweet smell, like mangoes
Taste: 'Piney' - not unpleasant
Needles: Harder to tear needles and snapped end has more fibres sticking out. 'Hairy Highlander!'
Bark: More orangey colour (more obvious in the crowns of older trees.)
New growth (Spring and Summer): Has shorter needles on leading shoot or top 'candle'.
Cones: No bristles on cones. No cones on trunk.

Lodgepole Pine
Smell: Citrus smell, like toilet cleaner.
Taste: Astringent, makes your face pucker up a bit!
Needles: Tear easily and snapped end has a relatively 'clean' break with few fibres sticking out.
Bark: greyer than Scots.
New growth (Spring and Summer): Has longer needles on leading shoot than Scots pine.
Cones: Defined bristles coming out of cones. Cones growing directly out of the trunk as well as branches.

Jayzesake

I went back and had another look at the tree today, with the intention of using Craig's indicators. Results:

1. Couldn't detect any difference in colour between the undersides and tops of needles.
2. Taste seemed more astringent than nutty to me (didn't bring a mirror, so not sure if my face was puckering!)
3. Needles broke fairly easily and cleanly, without fibres sticking out

As for smell, I couldn't detect any, but then my sense of smell has always been poor. But it looks like it's Lodgepole rather than Scots unfortunately. By way of consolation, there are lots of self-seeded Sessile Oak, Downy Birch, Holly, Rowan, Sally, Hazel, Whitethorn and Blackthorn seedlings/saplings springing up close by, as well as all sorts of interesting associated stuff.

Would have been nice to see wild Pinus sylvestris too though.

thyme

Now I'am wondering what one I have growing after reading this last night.

Found a little seedling growing down the forest a couple of years ago and I removed it when it was time, i'ts now about the size of the one that you found and I was sure it is a SP.

The lower part of the stem is the same, the new growth is not as vigorous as yours about half the size and still brown.

Just after trying the needle test, taste, smell, and nothing. I even tried crushing the needles to see if I could get a smell of anything and no. I think I was chewing on the needles to long my tongue feels strange now .

I'll have a look tomorrow at some SP that I planted some years ago to see the different stages of growth, and do the needle test again, but I'am not chewing on them .

Jayzesake

thyme wrote: »

Now I'am wondering what one I have growing after reading this last night.

Found a little seedling growing down the forest a couple of years ago and I removed it when it was time, i'ts now about the size of the one that you found and I was sure it is a SP.

The lower part of the stem is the same, the new growth is not as vigorous as yours about half the size and still brown.

Just after trying the needle test, taste, smell, and nothing. I even tried crushing the needles to see if I could get a smell of anything and no. I think I was chewing on the needles to long my tongue feels strange now .

I'll have a look tomorrow at some SP that I planted some years ago to see the different stages of growth, and do the needle test again, but I'am not chewing on them .

Did you try breaking a needle to see whether it breaks easily and cleanly?

thyme

Yeah I did, still have them here on the desk, when I snapped the needle in half it was a clean break, but just after doing it again and holding it under the lamp I can see very fine fibers sticking out, so I might be in luck.

Jayzesake

thyme wrote: »

Yeah I did, still have them here on the desk, when I snapped the needle in half it was a clean break, but just after doing it again and holding it under the lamp I can see very fine fibers sticking out, so I might be in luck.

Lodgepole Pine
Needles: Tear easily and snapped end has a relatively 'clean' break with few fibres sticking out.

If you need a lamp to see the fibres, it could be Lodgepole, going by the above. Your best bet is probably to base an ID on a combination of 3-4 things pointing in one direction.

Jayzesake

As an aside, did anyone hear about the research done on a small localised population of Scots Pine in the Burren which appeared to demonstrate that it has likely had a presence there going back thousands of years?

The general concensus previously was that sylvestris had become extinct on this island due to human activities, and had to be re-introduced from Scotland (in the 19th cent., I think).

SILVAMAN

Jayzesake wrote: »

As an aside, did anyone hear about the research done on a small localised population of Scots Pine in the Burren which appeared to demonstrate that it has likely had a presence there going back thousands of years?

The general concensus previously was that sylvestris had become extinct on this island due to human activities, and had to be re-introduced from Scotland (in the 19th cent., I think).[/QUOTA
Young Scots found 20 years back growing in group of upturned SP cones in bog-was sent to UCD and grown on. It was visually identified by a group of foresters as being a Scots Pine.

Jayzesake

SILVAMAN wrote: »

Young Scots found 20 years back growing in group of upturned SP cones in bog-was sent to UCD and grown on. It was visually identified by a group of foresters as being a Scots Pine.

Not sure I understand, Silvaman.

Were the cones from trees that had died out long ago, and the seed in the cones started growing when the cones were somehow unearthed after being buried for centuries?

And was this in the Burren, or where?

Thanks.

magicbastarder

i think i remember hearing that there was a stand of corsican pine found nearby, which increased the likelihood that the scots pine was also planted.

SILVAMAN

Must have been another tree- I saw the site which had no pines anywhere near it. I know the person who owned the tree and must find out what happened to the plant.

Jayzesake

As I heard it, it was a group of Scots Pine in a somewhat out-of-the-way location, and someone, perhaps a Ph.d candidate, did a fairly in-depth study looking at genetic and other evidence, concluding that in all likelihood they were a relict of the original Irish population.

I visited the place once: really cool area, even disregarding the SP, with Juniper trees, Yew, mixed oak woodland, turloughs, and the Karst you'd expect.

Here are a few photos I took at the time:

Woodland/turlough


Woodland/turlough



Pinus sylvestris



Yew/Karst



Please don't anyone ask me where it is, as I can't remember the exact location.

Jayzesake

Googled that study, and here we are from a TCD postgrad symposium this year:

Alwynne McGeever

Scots Pine: A native Irish tree?

About 5000 years ago Scots Pine (Pinus sylvestris) experienced a major population decline, which led to its ultimate extinction in Ireland about 2000 years ago. The current populations of Pinus sylvestris in Ireland originate from plantation introductions during the 18th century. Consequently the native status of this species is disputed. Here I present the results of a forest of Pinus sylvestris in the Burren, Co. Clare. The data shows it survived and recovered from the population decline, and persisted to the present day. Hence we propose it is a native Irish population of Pinus sylvestris, having persisted in the unique Burren landscape independent of the population collapse 2000 years ago and the introductions of the 18th century.

https://www.tcd.ie/GreenPages/documents/2015_Booklet_Final_Version.pdf