increasing flock size

weatherbyfoxer

Right lads,.im looking for yet another bit of advice, I got into 50 sheep 5 years ago as a trial and it worked out well since. I have build up to 100+25 replacement hoggets and plan on heading to 200 by march 2017 question is how to do this?

So far the best idea I can come up with is buying some mayo mules hoggets in the sales this summer..half the flock I currently have are belclare x suffolk which I bred myself but I find them small and belclare ram lambs are hard to finish also..any thoughts lads?

orm0nd

Think you answered your own query , hit for Ballinrobe next august,

a lot of my flock are mules and first and second crosses off them , tried LLeyn and belclare last couple of years, but will be staying with the mule from here on

as in any enterprise , profit will be minimized when expanding

"you have to spend money to make money"

weatherbyfoxer

Bought 10 mule ewe lambs private 3 year ago to try out and im very happy with them..stand out like sore thumbs doe compared to the rest of the flock

Have my flock of 100 ewes uasuly scan at 1.8 with only 10 sets of thriplets and most years wean at 1.7 so if I can keep that going with whatever breed of ewe ill be happy..I have neibours who scan at 2 and even 2.2 with heaps of thriplets some quads and even the odd ewe carrying 5!..these are flocks with alot of belclare and clyne bred ewes....I do not want to go down that road as I do nearly all work at lambing by myself and would struggle to keep mortality down

any rough ideas what I would pay for good mules preferably hoggets if not ewe lambs??

Green farmer

orm0nd wrote: »

"you have to spend money to make money"

I'm going down the road of trying to grow the flock by way of breeding my own replacements, and putting the money instead into fencing, grass and handling equipment. It's slower then I had planned though, as the numbers of lambs I'm getting out the gate is suffering because not too many ewe lambs are sold .Also you have to factor in culls every yer that are working against your overall numbers. On a positive note, it's a lot easier to accept when you find one legs up in the field and the only cost is the €30 knackery fee and your own time, versus a expensive hogget you paid €160 for plus the €30.

weatherbyfoxer

Green farmer wrote: »

I'm going down the road of trying to grow the flock by way of breeding my own replacements, and putting the money instead into fencing, grass and handling equipment. It's slower then I had planned though, as the numbers of lambs I'm getting out the gate is suffering because not too many ewe lambs are sold .Also you have to factor in culls every yer that are working against your overall numbers. On a positive note, it's a lot easier to accept when you find one legs up in the field and the only cost is the €30 knackery fee and your own time, versus a expensive hogget you paid €160 for plus the €30.

Was on that road the past 2 years but doesnt suit my place for a number of reasons,need to run maternal rams with alot of ewes to get enough female lambs which means spliting the flock up at tipping, ram lambs by the maternal rambs are harder to fatten and dont grade as well, the replacement ewe lambs need to be kept separate from everyting till they are hoggets that will go back into the flock for tipping with there rest of the ewes unless you want to go down the route of lambing ewe lambs at little over 1 year old which I have done twice but found it alot of extra management and expense for little over 1 lamb per ewe lamb at weaning

Green farmer

Yep, sounds like some of the issues I'm having alright :pac:, still I've fingers crossed that's this is the year that I'm going to crack it :pac:

rangler1

weatherbyfoxer wrote: »

Was on that road the past 2 years but doesnt suit my place for a number of reasons,need to run maternal rams with alot of ewes to get enough female lambs which means spliting the flock up at tipping, ram lambs by the maternal rambs are harder to fatten and dont grade as well, the replacement ewe lambs need to be kept separate from everyting till they are hoggets that will go back into the flock for tipping with there rest of the ewes unless you want to go down the route of lambing ewe lambs at little over 1 year old which I have done twice but found it alot of extra management and expense for little over 1 lamb per ewe lamb at weaning

I've bought in too much trouble, scab enzo, campy, so I changed to breeding my own, but there's a few things I learnt since I started breeding replacements
Firstly the maternal breeds of ram do better if you put a ring on their balls at a day old,,,,the Lleyns any way here started getting rammy very young, now there grading R3s and reaching the weight nearly as quick as the rest.
Secondly keeping ewe lambs without breeding them is too expensive, so we get them born first and give them every chance to be big enough to breed as lambs

orm0nd

weatherbyfoxer wrote: »

Bought 10 mule ewe lambs private 3 year ago to try out and im very happy with them..stand out like sore thumbs doe compared to the rest of the flock

Have my flock of 100 ewes uasuly scan at 1.8 with only 10 sets of thriplets and most years wean at 1.7 so if I can keep that going with whatever breed of ewe ill be happy..I have neibours who scan at 2 and even 2.2 with heaps of thriplets some quads and even the odd ewe carrying 5!..these are flocks with alot of belclare and clyne bred ewes....I do not want to go down that road as I do nearly all work at lambing by myself and would struggle to keep mortality down

any rough ideas what I would pay for good mules preferably hoggets if not ewe lambs??

any particular reason you prefer the hoggett to the ewe lamb ?


I reckon hoggets will be €200 up wards

orm0nd

rangler1 wrote: »

I've bought in too much trouble, scab enzo, campy, so I changed to breeding my own, but there's a few things I learnt since I started breeding replacements
Firstly the maternal breeds of ram do better if you put a ring on their balls at a day old,,,,the Lleyns any way here started getting rammy very young, now there grading R3s and reaching the weight nearly as quick as the rest.
Secondly keeping ewe lambs without breeding them is too expensive, so we get them born first and give them every chance to be big enough to breed as lambs

took your advise on ringing at birth this year , have a few rearing 3's , weighted a random pick , the ewe lambs are about 1 kg heavier , so ringing young didn't affect performance so much, certainly not as much as if they started romping in a few weeks time.

agree as well re keeping dry hoggets without a lamb first year, no room for passengers , butchered the empty ones this year, should have moved them earlier but was busy elsewhere

weatherbyfoxer

orm0nd wrote: »

any particular reason you prefer the hoggett to the ewe lamb ?


I reckon hoggets will be €200 up wards

This is my exsperence of ewe lambs

Ewe lambs need to be ran as a separate flock from tipping till their lambs are weaned which Inmy setup is difficult,they need a small quantity of meal for 8 weeks pre lambing and also meal post lambing . With their lambs you either have to spend a fortune creeping or keep them late as stores for finishing which will still need meal in the autumn

That was my experience of them but if anyone reckon they can do it easier or cheeper I would be interested to hear because I cant see myself handing out 200+ for a mule hogget!

rangler1

weatherbyfoxer wrote: »

This is my exsperence of ewe lambs

Ewe lambs need to be ran as a separate flock from tipping till their lambs are weaned which Inmy setup is difficult,they need a small quantity of meal for 8 weeks pre lambing and also meal post lambing . With their lambs you either have to spend a fortune creeping or keep them late as stores for finishing which will still need meal in the autumn

That was my experience of them but if anyone reckon they can do it easier or cheeper I would be interested to hear because I cant see myself handing out 200+ for a mule hogget!

You've just highlighted all the costs of keeping the ewe lamb, surely €100 you get for her lamb covers all that and the ewe is worth much more the following year.
In a small flock it's not really practical to breed your own, easier here as they're divided in to three flocks anyway and the replacement ewe lambs are tagged with a different colour management tag every year so we can pull out unrelated ewes for the ram very easy, ie we know that the blue and pink management tags are related to the Lleyn rams on the farm at the moment. very easy to see coming at you up the race to the dividing gate

Green farmer

I don't think it makes any difference financially anyway. Ie buying €3,000 of hoggets and buying €3,000 of ewe lambs and seeing what's paid for themselves after year1. It's just in year 2 onwards that either start making money. The biggest thing is what your buying in as rangler said from a disease point of view etc. Also is a farmer really going to sell their best replacements. It's just a gamble whether you get lucky or not. Your just eliminating some of these risks by home breeding , but either way you could end up with duds.

Cran

rangler1 wrote: »

You've just highlighted all the costs of keeping the ewe lamb, surely €100 you get for her lamb covers all that and the ewe is worth much more the following year.
In a small flock it's not really practical to breed your own, easier here as they're divided in to three flocks anyway and the replacement ewe lambs are tagged with a different colour management tag every year so we can pull out unrelated ewes for the ram very easy, ie we know that the blue and pink management tags are related to the Lleyn rams on the farm at the moment. very easy to see coming at you up the race to the dividing gate

I'd agree with this. In a small flock would think buying in replacements would be a lot easier and probably cost effective than breeding replacements. Issue in Ireland is limited source of specifically bred ewe replacements, we dont have the hill link as in the UK.

We do both here buy in some and breed some. One thing I've learned breeding replacements having a link & confidence with your ram breeder is even more important than with terminal rams. Bought two rams same year here that knocked me back years I'd say on replacement aims. First was infertile and second had worst feet ever and breed onto his daughters, he was culled after one year. All Lleyns are from one breeder here now and extremely happy with them, will take a lot for me to change from him.

orm0nd

weatherbyfoxer wrote: »

This is my exsperence of ewe lambs

Ewe lambs need to be ran as a separate flock from tipping till their lambs are weaned which Inmy setup is difficult,they need a small quantity of meal for 8 weeks pre lambing and also meal post lambing . With their lambs you either have to spend a fortune creeping or keep them late as stores for finishing which will still need meal in the autumn

That was my experience of them but if anyone reckon they can do it easier or cheeper I would be interested to hear because I cant see myself handing out 200+ for a mule hogget!

perhaps you will get hoggetts cheaper but you did emphasize "good"

stick with 200 for now, for the same money you most likely would get 1.4 ewe lambs

I bought mule ewe lambs last July for €100 and lighter ones for €90 ( ok it was a once off chance at a mart .. no farmer interest and the dealers didn't shaft me) all bar 1 have lambed down, a good few are rearing 2 lambs

just to add to rangler's post I'm also of the opinion that ewes that lamb in their first year make better dams in the long run

as you quite rightly point out they do require different management & this may not suit your situation

Dickie10

i went down the road of breeding my own repacements as i wanted to change the type of ewe. i wanted a ewe that would milk well when grass got scarce in march/april, i wanted prolificay in doubles, didnt want a huge ewe for practical jobs like dipping, turning etc and not too wild.

i went for the lleyn, bought a ram in north tipp 2 years ago and kept his daughters. i did this by putting him in a small field with 20 good sezed texel x ewes. i wasnt sure of his ram lambs so this is why i put him with these meaty ewes. i marked the ewes blue on the head and around 8 weeks after letting him out i put this group with the main flock of 50 ewes. at lambing i could see which ewe (blue) had a lleyn x lamb. now marked the ewe lambs blue on the head when let off down field. id like to notch the ear or tag by right which i must get. anyway these grew well and the ram lambs were all gone by mid october latest some suffolks were still here. the ram i bought had a good arse and shape to him although he was small in height.

anyway the poor bugger got a thing called "chondritis of the larynx" commonly known as snore, its a growth in the windpipe. he was fair bad and vet said very hard to cure. i slaughtered him before he keeled over but prob should have giviin him a bit of treatment and hope for the best as he was a great ram. i hope maybe in 2016 to buy another off the same man.

anyway the ewe lambs went out on oct 20th to a hampshire down ram. they lambed 6 doubles and 7 singles with 2 not in lamb. all lambed themselves even big singles. no nuts before or after lambing only good spring grass. loads of milk and fairly quite for ewe lambs.

put him with a few suffolk type ewes this sept and got nice grey faced lleyn x ewe lambs for next year.

have to say very happy with these lleyn ewe lambs so far. but they were 50 kg going to ram thats a good help.

serfspup

"chondritis of the larynx" is a genetic condition usually found in texels & beltex (and belgian blue cattle) associated with big heads,short neck and reduced lung capacity.
guess we know how your lleyn had such a good body

rangler1

serfspup wrote: »

"chondritis of the larynx" is a genetic condition usually found in texels & beltex (and belgian blue cattle) associated with big heads,short neck and reduced lung capacity.
guess we know how your lleyn had such a good body

Don't they even call it Texel throat
That's what I was thinking, I think I've made the same mistake myself, ewes here bred out of the present Lleyn rams are not near as prolific as the previous lleyn rams

Dickie10

should i have kept him and hope for the best? would lleyn x ewes , ewe lambs have still good maternal qualities. they would be 1/4 lleyn , perhaps half suffolk. what type of ewes would these be? id like to keep that rams blood line if i could. in 2016 i might put the 1/2 lleyns to a new lleyn ram and have 3/4 lleyn ewes. would this be a good option?

serfspup

it is genetic you are well shot of him ,had a texel a few years ago and still culling daughters and granddaughters even crossbreds, not impressed