Nct emissions fail again, help please?

veruca salt

Hi, I have a Toyota rav4 2002 petrol, 120000 miles but kept serviced. Failed nct couple of weeks ago on high idle emissions: lambda .92 (should be between .97 and 1.03), Co 2.3 %(should be less than .3 %) and hc 469pm (should be less than 200pm).
I got a new lambda sensor fitted but failed retest again. Lambda (.99) and hc (65pm) passed but Co failed on high idle (down to .5 but needs to be under .3) and Co in low idle actually was higher than first time (up from .35 first test up to .89 and needs to be under .5). Anyone any idea what is going on? Is back at the garage on Wednesday. Thanks a million.

whizbang

The new sensor did improve things considerably, so most likely it was the main fault.

if it has been driven a long time with bad emissions, the system could be sooted up. Do an 'Italian tune-up'.

Is it burning much oil, or do you have much smoke? - use a thicker oil, or even a specialist oil additive for worn engines. This will give you peace of mind also, as well as reducing emissions.

veruca salt

Thanks a million, will Google Italian tune up now! I think the garage are thinking of replacing the cat next week?

Cee-Jay-Cee

If you haven't done so already, change the oil and oil filter (even if they were done 1 or 2k miles ago do them again) and spark plugs. Run a bottle of injector cleaner thorough the petrol tank for a week or so and on the day of the test go for a long hard drive an hour before the test, on your way to the test centre drive in low gear at high revs to get the engine up to full temperature and arrive for the test 5 minutes before the test so the engine is still hot during the test. You could also throw a drop of diptaine into the tank a week or so before the test to 'clean' it out.

degsie

Take it to a 'proper' garage where they can diagnose the problem and carry out accurate emissions tests.

veruca salt

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

If you haven't done so already, change the oil and oil filter (even if they were done 1 or 2k miles ago do them again) and spark plugs. Run a bottle of injector cleaner thorough the petrol tank for a week or so and on the day of the test go for a long hard drive an hour before the test, on your way to the test centre drive in low gear at high revs to get the engine up to full temperature and arrive for the test 5 minutes before the test so the engine is still hot during the test. You could also throw a drop of diptaine into the tank a week or so before the test to 'clean' it out.

Thanks, will say that to the garage about oil change and spark plugs. Definitely don't want to replace the cat and still fail! The garage put am engine cleaner in after they replaced lambda sensor but I only got to drive about 100 km between them and the re test, not sure if that would have made a difference? The car is an automatic and I drive like a snail and usually shortish distances, would getting the husband to drive it for a few days help I wonder? The test guy (was very nice) said there was a smell of smoke? Sorry I know I am asking ye to be psychic here!

veruca salt

Degsie I always take it to the garage around the corner from work, it's a large chain, they do have all the equipment and I really like the head guy but do you think they might not be doing right?

kona

veruca salt wrote: »

Degsie I always take it to the garage around the corner from work, it's a large chain, they do have all the equipment and I really like the head guy but do you think they might not be doing right?

Is it a fast fit kind of place? Your car is still running rich at .99 lambda, this would cause the co to rise.
As to what is causing it, could be a number of things which a decent garage should sort out.
I wouldn't go putting a new cat into it, does the garage not have the equipment to check emissions?

veruca salt

kona wrote: »

Is it a fast fit kind of place? Your car is still running rich at .99 lambda, this would cause the co to rise.
As to what is causing it, could be a number of things which a decent garage should sort out.
I wouldn't go putting a new cat into it, does the garage not have the equipment to check emissions?

Yeah it is I suppose? They do have the equipment to check, I just assumed they had used it the last time, maybe I should have asked specifically? I am a bit useless, have had the car since new and it's the first time it has needed anything besides general upkeep so I am totally clueless.

kona

veruca salt wrote: »

Yeah it is I suppose? They do have the equipment to check, I just assumed they had used it the last time, maybe I should have asked specifically? I am a bit useless, have had the car since new and it's the first time it has needed anything besides general upkeep so I am totally clueless.

If they have the equipment to check emissions I'd be worried that they have checked it, passed it as ok when it wasn't.


I'd definatley bring it to a indie mechanic who knows what he is doing. Fast fit places have mechanics but they wouldn't be the same quality as a good indie mechanic.

mullingar

Running too rich for too long will damage the cat.

If it passed the low idle co id wager the cat can't cope with the job.

Dartz

Stuff a bottle of Cataclean down it's throat when it's on a quarter-tank then give it a good shoeing until the fuel light comes on.

It's what the RX8 owners do in the UK to get 'em through.

greasepalm

yep cataclean as it cleans the whole system out and cat,no other cleaner does that,most factors stock it ,as said above though in a 1/4 tank and take it for a good m50 drive then get emissions rechecked.

browniepoints

The ECU on the car might need to be reset .If the car was running rich for long time the ECU might be reluctant to adapt quick enough to the new Lamda .

Restting most ECU is often easy enough disconnecting the battery for ten minutes does most of them for reset .
The ECU goes back to factory setting .


Sorted one of my mates car when it failed the emmisions test did all the tricks and the reset ECU and passed

Jed

veruca salt

Thanks a million for all replies, very much appreciated. Got new cat fixed yesterday and after co and lambda emissions were well within the limits for passing nct emissions, which is great. But the HC levels had suddenly shot up??? Once the engine was run and allowed to heat up they HC came down to about 109 (under 200 a pass) but still higher than it was at retest last week (65). Has anyone seen this before? I am starting to get a horrible feeling my poor old car isn't going to pass at all, I love this old car, first thing i bought with my own money bought new 13 years ago and well minded. Is the best thing to do just drive it in hot and get somebody to stay in it with engine on while I wait for it be tested? The garage put an engine conditioner in for me, should i try cataclean or something too? I am a bit afraid to do anything at all in case I make the poxy emissions even worse!!!

Toyotafanboi

You should try get someone to do a proper diagnosis and repair and it'l sail a test. 120k is nothing on that car/ engine.

Throwing various snake oils into the tank is rather unlikely to get the car through. Cataclean, redex, dipetane, more... have you got any fuel in there?

Not having a rant at you OP, genuine advice.

jca

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

You should try get someone to do a proper diagnosis and repair and it'l sail a test. 120k is nothing on that car/ engine.

Throwing various snake oils into the tank is rather unlikely to get the car through. Cataclean, redex, dipetane, more... have you got any fuel in there?

Not having a rant at you OP, genuine advice.

Finally the voice of reason intervenes. Do what this man says. Bottles of gunk in the fuel are only stop gap measures at best.

veruca salt

Thanks a million lads, I think you are right and I will have to just to another garage, even though I do really like the staff at the place around the corner from work it does seem like they aren't doing the job fully. With the lambda sensor and cat replaced it seems like there is still something amiss. The guy said he thought it was burning some oil when I went to collect it but when I asked could that be causing the high hc and what could the cause be he pretty much said it's an old car and if I take her in hot she should pass the retest. Maybe he thinks the car is too old to spend the time/money finding and fixing what is causing the oil burning?

veruca salt

Could anyone recommend somewhere around the north kildare area that could see me right?

Toyotafanboi

veruca salt wrote: »

Thanks a million lads, I think you are right and I will have to just to another garage, even though I do really like the staff at the place around the corner from work it does seem like they aren't doing the job fully. With the lambda sensor and cat replaced it seems like there is still something amiss. The guy said he thought it was burning some oil when I went to collect it but when I asked could that be causing the high hc and what could the cause be he pretty much said it's an old car and if I take her in hot she should pass the retest. Maybe he thinks the car is too old to spend the time/money finding and fixing what is causing the oil burning?

Can you post up your most recent fail results?

veruca salt

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Can you post up your most recent fail results?

Can do, thanks for looking, much appreciated!

First test after new cat fitted (engine cold/just started)

Low idle:
co .01
lambda .98
hc 718

High Idle:
co .09
lambda .99
hc 520

Second test (engine running for ten minutes)

Low idle:
co .13
lambda .99
hc 190

High idle:
co .09
lambda 1.0
hc 109

Anjobe

veruca salt wrote: »

Could anyone recommend somewhere around the north kildare area that could see me right?

PM sent

greasepalm

you cant do emissions correctly when started from cold,car is best driven for at least 10mins at normal operarating temp,i presume oil and filter changed to ensure oil not contaminated with petrol,air filter clean and throttle body clean.

degsie

jca wrote: »

Finally the voice of reason intervenes. Do what this man says. Bottles of gunk in the fuel are only stop gap measures at best.

Ahem...
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=95311021&postcount=5

veruca salt

OK got emissions rechecked today and all good! That was literally when I drove to the garage, 15 minute drive down motorway, straight onto machine. I can't get anybody to come with me to nct tonight, will the engine have gone too cold again by the time I have waited for them to call my name I wonder? Sorry, I know I am being ridiculous here!

greasepalm

unless you wait for an hour should be ok as they have to check its at operating temp with probe or laser before running test.

Cee-Jay-Cee

So did it pass???

veruca salt

NO!!!!!!! Argghhh! Failed on high idle co again. I should have taken all of your good advice on here and changed garage several hundred euro ago. I am mortified to say I actually cried in the car after, it's just so frustrating. I will ring the indie garages I have been recommended tomorrow and see if anyone can help, I am so annoyed that I have already left my car into the garage for three separate days over this and still isn't right, with full time work and small kids to collect and drop to childcare being without my car is not easy. I assume the cat wasn't the issue then? Although the lambda sensor did seem to help? Or what the hell us going on? Co High idle was up to .45 (needs to under .30) from .11 when measured by garage earlier? I only got to drive it for 15 minutes before test and had to leave it wait for 15 minutes while waiting for test, I know if I go back to my own garage they are going to say that's why it failed but could it really be? Surely it should be able to pass without that? Engine temp was 86? Sorry for all the whinging, you are a very patient lot!

veruca salt

If anyone in the north kildare area knows of any garages/people who will actually bring the car to the nct for you please let me know? If it is about driving then hard etc I just haven't a clue and himself is working all hours (and hasn't a breeze about cars and will just nag me to change the car but we really can't afford to, and I love my car!!!)

degsie

Time to take a step back. Emmision tests are there for a reason, i.e. to protect the environment. This is your legacy to your kids, at some time in the future they will have to deal with your and others attempts to circumvent the stated current accepted test criteria. Time to take stock and either change your car or get it fixed properly. My 2'c.

jca

degsie wrote: »

Time to take a step back. Emmision tests are there for a reason, i.e. to protect the environment. This is your legacy to your kids, at some time in the future they will have to deal with your and others attempts to circumvent the stated current accepted test criteria. Time to take stock and either change your car or get it fixed properly. My 2'c.

Completely unhelpful post. The op is trying everything she can to get her car sorted. Nowhere in any of her posts has she suggested doing a bodge to circumvent the criteria laid out by the nct guys.

greasepalm

i remember on one model of toyota diagnostics said front lambda faulty and it turned out to be the rear that was at fault,was there a live data check done or what lambda was replaced front or rear.we all get issues now and again with cars and will try our best to keep you sane and to hold onto your passion wagon.did you add a bottle of cataclean in 1/4 and its not gunk?
keep the faith

barneygumble99

veruca salt wrote: »

If anyone in the north kildare area knows of any garages/people who will actually bring the car to the nct for you please let me know? If it is about driving then hard etc I just haven't a clue and himself is working all hours (and hasn't a breeze about cars and will just nag me to change the car but we really can't afford to, and I love my car!!!)

Pm'd