Big-bang approach Into Dairy farming!!

Feckthis

What do you dairy men/woman think of this approach?

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/new-dairy-entrants-need-a-big-bang-approach/

Bullocks

I think it goes without saying in any business that if you can take off fully set up and be running at full production from the beginning that it's great . But I wouldn't like to be the one to advise anyone to borrow up to their oxters in order to start like that either .
I'm more of a slowly , slowly catchy monkey man myself .

Farmer Pudsey

The thing is this is in relation to an already set up operation. The farm milks 2K cows after renting this farm. They have put 450 cow on approx 428 acre. They obiviously had access to the herd from the resources of the other farms they have. The roadways are concrete railway sleepers, more than likly they can be bought at a cheap price in the UK and at the end of the rental period reused either with in the present farms or on another rented farm. Everything is contracted in the machinery line.

Main o/p seems to have been a basic milking parlour and again I imagine most can be reused at end of rental period if it is not recovered from an existing site. They have economies of scale and the ability to use up capital costs and day to day running losses across other farms for 1-2 years or even longer if this happens.

This is totally different to Farmer Joe Bloggs starting from scratch or doubling farm size by renting a seperate block. They have tax advantages and economies of scale not available to such operators. If they had to buy 450 heifers and cows costing 1K average(and that is super cheap I imagine) it would put a different spin on the story.

Sam Kade

It should work if you have enough money to start with but if had to borrow heavily there could be another big bang of a different kind.

jaymla627

Sam Kade wrote: »

It should work if you have enough money to start with but if had to borrow heavily there could be another big bang of a different kind.

Over a million sunk in to a rented tillage farm not far from us, 50 bail rotary etc, they thought they had planning for a underpass to get access to 150 acres accross a very busy main road, planning is after been denied as a mains gas pipe runs through the road.
So instead of a 350 acre block now down to 200 could be a big bang on that place by the looks of it

blue5000

Just thinking of a few lads near here crossing the old Dublin-Limerick N7 road with cows, gas pipeline just gone in and they'll never get an underpass now.

Sam Kade

jaymla627 wrote: »

Over a million sunk in to a rented tillage farm not far from us, 50 bail rotary etc, they thought they had planning for a underpass to get access to 150 acres accross a very busy main road, planning is after been denied as a mains gas pipe runs through the road.
So instead of a 350 acre block now down to 200 could be a big bang on that place by the looks of it

That's fairly sickening, goes to show that you need everything sorted before you start spending.

Farmer Pudsey

jaymla627 wrote: »

Over a million sunk in to a rented tillage farm not far from us, 50 bail rotary etc, they thought they had planning for a underpass to get access to 150 acres accross a very busy main road, planning is after been denied as a mains gas pipe runs through the road.
So instead of a 350 acre block now down to 200 could be a big bang on that place by the looks of it

There would have been a big bang if they hit the gas pipeline. Is the pipeline running the whole lengt of the road or can they move the underpass a few hundred metres

manjou

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The thing is this is in relation to an already set up operation. The farm milks 2K cows after renting this farm. They have put 450 cow on approx 428 acre. They obiviously had access to the herd from the resources of the other farms they have. The roadways are concrete railway sleepers, more than likly they can be bought at a cheap price in the UK and at the end of the rental period reused either with in the present farms or on another rented farm. Everything is contracted in the machinery line.

Main o/p seems to have been a basic milking parlour and again I imagine most can be reused at end of rental period if it is not recovered from an existing site. They have economies of scale and the ability to use up capital costs and day to day running losses across other farms for 1-2 years or even longer if this happens.

This is totally different to Farmer Joe Bloggs starting from scratch or doubling farm size by renting a seperate block. They have tax advantages and economies of scale not available to such operators. If they had to buy 450 heifers and cows costing 1K average(and that is super cheap I imagine) it would put a different spin on the story.

Seen one guy in england dont know if same fellow also had mobile milking parlour so could move it if lost land too

jaymla627

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

There would have been a big bang if they hit the gas pipeline. Is the pipeline running the whole lengt of the road or can they move the underpass a few hundred metres

Runs the length of the road going into a fairly big town I think, can't understand why the underpass wasn't put in the first day then kick on with everything else...

onyerbikepat

A guy cutting grass just tipped of a stake here in Shannon one day and burst one of the gas lines. You could hear the gas rushing out. Sounded like a jet plane nearby. It was a good hour before they got it stopped and repaired.
It's not as dangerous as you would think. A small slow leak in a confined place is a lot more serious as the gas gets time to mix up with the air and so ready for ignition. Pure Methane needs oxygen to burn.
The guys that came to repair it, just went digging away with shovels to find the pipe with gas still pouring out.

Sam Kade

onyerbikepat wrote: »

A guy cutting grass just tipped of a stake here in Shannon one day and burst one of the gas lines. You could hear the gas rushing out. Sounded like a jet plane nearby. It was a good hour before they got it stopped and repaired.
It's not as dangerous as you would think. A small slow leak in a confined place is a lot more serious as the gas gets time to mix up with the air and so ready for ignition. Pure Methane needs oxygen to burn.
The guys that came to repair it, just went digging away with shovels to find the pipe with gas still pouring out.

No offence onyerbikepat but that story sounds very hairy.

frazzledhome

Big Bang is exactly what you want if moving to a leased farm. The problem is that just like any other start up you need huge cash reserves to sustain cashflow at the start. This burning of cash needs to be overcome to succeed.

Guys with already well established set ups can sustain this buy 'selling' stock and 'hiring' labour to new farm. Another important point in The UK context is that there would usually be €1m worth of buildings on the farm already.

Regarding the guys not getting planning for underpass, not a worry in the world. They will walk cows across the road 'till the council realise the need for an underpass. These guys whom I know well won't be one be one bit phased by this set back, while on the other hand some will be delighted to see their wings clipped

Milked out

Financing the big bang approach can be an issue, went to bank for loan for land and to cover some investment costs and was told where to go, now I know everyone is different with regards circumstances and we wouldnt have the scale of lads in england or others here but doing everything day one requires having bobs in place already other than the bank these days unfortunately

frazzledhome

Milked out wrote: »

Financing the big bang approach can be an issue, went to bank for loan for land and to cover some investment costs and was told where to go, now I know everyone is different with regards circumstances and we wouldnt have the scale of lads in england or others here but doing everything day one requires having bobs in place already other than the bank these days unfortunately

Was offered 450 acres of tillage a few weeks ago, not a rood of waste. We seriously crunched the numbers and without compromising what we have we couldn't even make the proposal bankable. I think that we would have undermined our standing had we approached the bank.

It was very doable but we concluded 200 cow herds, simple systems and repeatable were the way to go

whelan2

jaymla627 wrote: »

Over a million sunk in to a rented tillage farm not far from us, 50 bail rotary etc, they thought they had planning for a underpass to get access to 150 acres accross a very busy main road, planning is after been denied as a mains gas pipe runs through the road.
So instead of a 350 acre block now down to 200 could be a big bang on that place by the looks of it

could they not do an overpass or bridge or something?

Timmaay

whelan2 wrote: »

could they not do an overpass or bridge or something?

Helicopter the cows over every day ha

onyerbikepat

Sam Kade wrote: »

No offence onyerbikepat but that story sounds very hairy.

Hairy in what sense. 100% true - saw it with my own eyes as it was directly outside my window. Couldn't believe it when they went at the ground with shovels but that's exactly what they did.
I work with Methane Gas myself for industrial applications so I know a bit about it.

Sam Kade

onyerbikepat wrote: »

Hairy in what sense. 100% true - saw it with my own eyes as it was directly outside my window. Couldn't believe it when they went at the ground with shovels but that's exactly what they did.
I work with Methane Gas myself for industrial applications so I know a bit about it.

He tipped a stake and put a hole in the pipe aren't the pipes made of cast iron/steel? They would be at least 2.5-3' below the surface of the ground. Just wondering.

Blackgrass

frazzledhome wrote: »

Another important point in The UK context is that there would usually be €1m worth of buildings on the farm already.

In cheshire on heavy clay, at best they've a 7 month grazing season would imagne there's cow sheds in place from something....

kevthegaff

I started 8 years, had an old cubicle shed, i took on debt with the farm and rent. Ive beem investing in the farm and im still not finished, new collecting yard/tank, silage slab, 160 cubicles/scrapers, calf/cow shed, watersystem, fencing, roadway, milking parlour b tank over 50% reseeded, cows, quota machinery (old) 400k+. The business would have been in jeopardy at 23c litre if i had gone the big bang approach. I would have liked but i was only 24 and the banks prob wouldnt have entertained me

jaymla627

frazzledhome wrote: »

Big Bang is exactly what you want if moving to a leased farm. The problem is that just like any other start up you need huge cash reserves to sustain cashflow at the start. This burning of cash needs to be overcome to succeed.

Guys with already well established set ups can sustain this buy 'selling' stock and 'hiring' labour to new farm. Another important point in The UK context is that there would usually be €1m worth of buildings on the farm already.

Regarding the guys not getting planning for underpass, not a worry in the world. They will walk cows across the road 'till the council realise the need for an underpass. These guys whom I know well won't be one be one bit phased by this set back, while on the other hand some will be delighted to see their wings clipped

Their public liability would want to be well up to date so, one accident with a car and cows crossing that road and you would be brought to the cleaners

Dawggone

frazzledhome wrote: »

Was offered 450 acres of tillage a few weeks ago, not a rood of waste. We seriously crunched the numbers and without compromising what we have we couldn't even make the proposal bankable. I think that we would have undermined our standing had we approached the bank.

It was very doable but we concluded 200 cow herds, simple systems and repeatable were the way to go

So....bottom line....the land (raw material) was too expensive.

onyerbikepat

Sam Kade wrote: »

He tipped a stake and put a hole in the pipe aren't the pipes made of cast iron/steel? They would be at least 2.5-3' below the surface of the ground. Just wondering.

No these are the High density yellow polyethylene pipes (HDPE). They can operate up to 4 Bar.

Picture here;
http://editions.sciencetechnologyaction.com/lessons2-3150.php

Timmaay

Dawggone wrote: »

So....bottom line....the land (raw material) was too expensive.

Frazz it would be enough land for 3 of your 200 KISS herds ha!

frazzledhome

Dawggone wrote: »

So....bottom line....the land (raw material) was too expensive.

That's it in a nut shell as nothing else could be compromised

Dawggone

frazzledhome wrote: »

That's it in a nut shell as nothing else could be compromised

Gold can be bought too dear.
My old lad used to say that.

frazzledhome

Dawggone wrote: »

Gold can be bought too dear.
My old lad used to say that.

Bag many with the Argies?

Dawggone

frazzledhome wrote: »

Bag many with the Argies?

Pure slaughter if you want to.
Go lower down the mountains for more of a challenge.
Most enjoyable.
P*ssed rain every afternoon at 3:30pm.

Farmer Pudsey

In this case big bang was not the big bang some posters think. The British Dairy farm had 1600 cows there replacement rate would be 250-350 cows a year. If they had there eye on this farm for 12 months they could have put extra cows in calf to dairy bulls last year these are now only two years away. Maybe they had an expansion policy in place anyway and had extra heifers in place trhat they sell ever year.

This between reduced culling in existing herd for 2 years and maybe extra dairy heifers they sell the herd for new unit could be in place fairly cheaply. As frazzle said there is more than likly sheds in place so extra cost will really be milking parlour and roadways and fencing. If you have an expansion policy in place they may have stockpiled conc sleepers and fencing over last 2-3 years which reduced tax bill on other units.

Then it is just a sums game it depends on rental cost of land. Planning is about putting things in place if oportunities arise.