The Cost per Watt

mossym

People talk about free speed. but what's a reasonable cost per watt?

Spotted this over on 220 triathlons twitter feed.
http://www.220triathlon.com/competitions/win-a-ceramicspeed-upgrade-worth-over-1000/414.html

Up for grabs is one set of super-hardened and anti-rust coated race bearings for your wheels and a free hub, worth over £500, which can potentially save you 10 watts of power.

so. 50 GBP a watt. ouch.

but wait

And finally you’ll win a set of CNC machined aluminium pulley wheels (in red or black), worth £170, which will add another dimension to reducing the drag in your drive chain. Together this CeramicSpeed upgrade will offer combined power savings of around 15 watts, which is more than just a marginal gain – it could easily reduce your power output by 10%.
so assuming the 15 includes the 10 from above. we're down to 34gbp a watt.

still pricey.

now sure, if you have exhausted everything else, these could make sense. several of the pro's are using them, as well as specially dipped chains.

but for the average AG'er, whats your pain threshold for what a watt (:) ) is worth to you?

tunney

mossym wrote: »

People talk about free speed. but what's a reasonable cost per watt?

Spotted this over on 220 triathlons twitter feed.
http://www.220triathlon.com/competitions/win-a-ceramicspeed-upgrade-worth-over-1000/414.html

Up for grabs is one set of super-hardened and anti-rust coated race bearings for your wheels and a free hub, worth over £500, which can potentially save you 10 watts of power.

so. 50 GBP a watt. ouch.

but wait

And finally you’ll win a set of CNC machined aluminium pulley wheels (in red or black), worth £170, which will add another dimension to reducing the drag in your drive chain. Together this CeramicSpeed upgrade will offer combined power savings of around 15 watts, which is more than just a marginal gain – it could easily reduce your power output by 10%.
so assuming the 15 includes the 10 from above. we're down to 34gbp a watt.

still pricey.

now sure, if you have exhausted everything else, these could make sense. several of the pro's are using them, as well as specially dipped chains.

but for the average AG'er, whats your pain threshold for what a watt (:) ) is worth to you?

Just draft

d4r3n

Just go to an SKF dealer and buy the bearings for €10-20 a pop, 61803, 61805 and ask for the HC5 (ceramic) type.

I must go into the 700% markup ceramic bearing business.

joey100

Don't think I would spend that money on dipped chains or bearings. A new frame or a disc is another matter though.....

pointer28

I'd say an awful lot are wasting watts by not having their bike in the best possible condition.

I changed my wheel bearings yesterday for the first time in years and it felt like I had a tailwind this morning.

Cost me €4 plus some grease.

tunney

pointer28 wrote: »

I'd say an awful lot are wasting watts by not having their bike in the best possible condition.

I changed my wheel bearings yesterday for the first time in years and it felt like I had a tailwind this morning.

Cost me €4 plus some grease.

+1

Use SRMs and a powertap. If difference > 3% then your drivetrain is fecked

mossym

i should have said, but i though it was obvious, i was posting the original examples from a point of view of giveing examples. i've no desire or attention to spend any of that type of money on bottom brackets or bearings.

daithiK1

Depends on what your goal is. If you’re an age grouper aiming for podiums, qualifying slots or the like and are already ‘nearly’ at that standard or already at that standard but looking for a bit of insurance for a bad day, in my opinion certain ceramic upgrades are well worth the money, what’s €300 or so quid when compared with a 20+ hour training week or even the entry cost.
For a new chain, crank bearings and jockey wheels I would expect that 10 watts might be a tiny bit optimistic, none-the-less it still should be close to that and certainly worth the upgrade assuming that everything else from appropriate tires / pressure / cassette ratio etc. etc. etc. are considered too.

tunney

daithiK1 wrote: »

Depends on what your goal is. If you’re an age grouper aiming for podiums, qualifying slots or the like and are already ‘nearly’ at that standard or already at that standard but looking for a bit of insurance for a bad day, in my opinion certain ceramic upgrades are well worth the money, what’s €300 or so quid when compared with a 20+ hour training week or even the entry cost.
For a new chain, crank bearings and jockey wheels I would expect that 10 watts might be a tiny bit optimistic, none-the-less it still should be close to that and certainly worth the upgrade assuming that everything else from appropriate tires / pressure / cassette ratio etc. etc. etc. are considered too.

Because a bearing spins well without load does not mean it spins well without load.

Also when I was into racing I purchase research on a number of topics. Including friction.

Some pertenant quotes:

Of the three bearing technologies, Ceramic BBs, Steel BBs, and Sleeve Bushings, Ceramic BBs consumed an average of 0.064 watts/pulley. Steel BBs consumed an average of 0.069 watts/pulley. Sleeve bushings consumed an average of 0.577 watts/pulley.

The very best Ceramic BB was 0.061 watts/pulley. The next best was 0.064 watts/pulley. Guess what it was steel BBs..........

The difference between the most efficient and least efficient set of pulleys is 1.309 watts.

To put this in perspective relubing a Dura Ace chain properly from factory lubed saves 0.76 of a watt - half of what the the most fancy Ceramic pulleys saved.

sconhome

But for most reducing the friction load* is the best way to effectively save watts









*myself included

pointer28

Listened to a lad from the Specialized Wind Tunnel yesterday and he maintained that ill fitting, loose and baggy clothing is one of the biggest culprits for aerodynamic drag and yet one of the easiest and cheapest to solve.

68 lost souls

But they make your wallet lighter to so Watt/KG gets better too

pointer28

68 lost souls wrote: »

But they make your wallet lighter to so Watt/KG gets better too

Especially when you're poor like me and only ever have coins in your wallet.

daithiK1

tunney wrote: »

The very best Ceramic BB was 0.061 watts/pulley. The next best was 0.064 watts/pulley. Guess what it was steel BBs..........



To put this in perspective relubing a Dura Ace chain properly from factory lubed saves 0.76 of a watt - half of what the the most fancy Ceramic pulleys saved.

Fairly sure I read the same /similar research, if I recall there were notes included re. housing and ensuring correct set up too.

Agree that the gains are very small, however for the new chain or just lub and the new jockey wheels the cost is not expensive, for somebody that is lightweight and is getting close to achieving their goal, that might be a very easy improvement and if its coming in on top of all other gains, certainly worthwhile.

peter kern

to be fair whoever reads such magazines should really not wonder why triathletes get so much rubbish and lies offered.
tunnys post is correct the claims published in this advertisng mag in my most diplomatic language at best extremly ignorant if we dont want to use the word pure marketing lies

mossym wrote: »

People talk about free speed. but what's a reasonable cost per watt?

Spotted this over on 220 triathlons twitter feed.
http://www.220triathlon.com/competitions/win-a-ceramicspeed-upgrade-worth-over-1000/414.html

Up for grabs is one set of super-hardened and anti-rust coated race bearings for your wheels and a free hub, worth over £500, which can potentially save you 10 watts of power.

so. 50 GBP a watt. ouch.

but wait

And finally you’ll win a set of CNC machined aluminium pulley wheels (in red or black), worth £170, which will add another dimension to reducing the drag in your drive chain. Together this CeramicSpeed upgrade will offer combined power savings of around 15 watts, which is more than just a marginal gain – it could easily reduce your power output by 10%.
so assuming the 15 includes the 10 from above. we're down to 34gbp a watt.

still pricey.

now sure, if you have exhausted everything else, these could make sense. several of the pro's are using them, as well as specially dipped chains.

but for the average AG'er, whats your pain threshold for what a watt (:) ) is worth to you?

mossym

peter kern wrote: »

to be fair whoever reads such magazines should really not wonder why triathletes get so much rubbish and lies offered.
tunnys post is correct the claims published in this advertisng mag in my most diplomatic language at best extremly ignorant if we dont want to use the word pure marketing lies

if you think the tri magazines are bad peter don't ever get into audio equipment. whole different level.

anyway, much more fun:

peter kern

I was waiting for this graph ufortuantely they dont really work either
some skin suits can make the rider slower and some faster
it depends a lot on the fit of the suit
like an aero helmet the savings depend on so many factors and you can not do what the graph does to put one number for 1 item .

and also it depends a lot on how things work totheter in a system
like my p4 was designed for a narrow flat disc .
the p5 around a wider disc and the canyon speedmax tests faster with a deep rim wheel than a disc.
so 3 bikes that work best with 3 different wheels.

mossym wrote: »

if you think the tri magazines are bad peter don't ever get into audio equipment. whole different level.

anyway, much more fun:

BennyMul

I always find this a very personal thing, and is down to what the person can justify to them selves or more importantly their spouse.

Can I personally spend 13k+ for ~8min savings over a 40k TT
if I was at the point of the spectrum and vying to win then some of this expenditure is a no brainier.

mossym

i presume no-one here is daft enough to take those numbers at face value.

i have the same issue for the products i work on. performance numbers are dependent on design/layout, so change for every system. Customers know this. it doesn't mean they don;t want to see performance improvement numbers. so you take a base system, change one item, and show the performance improvement.

most of our customers know enough to know they won't see the same exact improvement. the same doesn't hold true for consumer based markets though.

BennyMul

What you mean big organisations lie to sell products ?????????????????

mossym

BennyMul wrote: »

I always find this a very personal thing, and is down to what the person can justify to them selves or more importantly their spouse.

Can I personally spend 13k+ for ~8min savings over a 40k TT
if I was at the point of the spectrum and vying to win then some of this expenditure is a no brainier.

give the prices people pay for kona slots then the 13k could be an absolute bargain.

peter kern

i presume no-one here is daft enough to take those numbers at face value.

the hope dies last is all i can say to this ;-) many people think they are one gadget away from being the club hero.

theri is a company that provides the most ridicouls vo2 tests and i know many clubs who have used them...

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

i presume no-one here is daft enough to take those numbers at face value.

the hope dies last is all i can say to this ;-) many people think they are one gadget away from being the club hero.

theri is a company that provides the most ridicouls vo2 tests and i know many clubs who have used them...

+1

mossym

BennyMul wrote: »

What you mean big organisations lie to sell products ?????????????????

No.


:cool:;)

tunney

I remember when the first super bikes came out the Trek Speed concepts and the like.

I went to a race with my then coach. He was over from UK so he took my road bike. Round tubes, box wheels, no clip ons and a road helmet. The "big boys" at the race had trispokes, discs, aero helmets, super bikes.

He rode the fastest bike split of the day and won the race.

Not about the bike............

sconhome

peter kern wrote: »

i presume no-one here is daft enough to take those numbers at face value.

the hope dies last is all i can say to this ;-) many people think they are one gadget away from being the club hero.

theri is a company that provides the most ridicouls vo2 tests and i know many clubs who have used them...

Get the right gadget and you won't need a VO2 tester

tunney

Also its important to note the difference that goes into maintenance. Regular bearings you don't need to work about. One you go high end the lubes are different and the seals weak (strong seals increase friction) Twice yearly at least maintenance

bryangiggsy

tunney wrote: »

I remember when the first super bikes came out the Trek Speed concepts and the like.

I went to a race with my then coach. He was over from UK so he took my road bike. Round tubes, box wheels, no clip ons and a road helmet. The "big boys" at the race had trispokes, discs, aero helmets, super bikes.

He rode the fastest bike split of the day and won the race.

Not about the bike............

Agreed but he would have been even faster on a tt bike