Best Marathon Plan

kipkeino

I am looking for suggestions for the best marathon plan for a first time marathoner but a relatively experienced runner.

I have been running for the last 8 years and am well into my forties.
I would like to run a good first marathon.
I am prepared to train hard for it so want to get a decent time.
I don't plan on running loads of marathons just 1 or 2 starting in 2016.

My 2014 PBs are:
5K - 16:50
10K - 36:30
10mi - 1:03 (2013 - not max effort)

So far this year I have usually ran 4-5 times per week with an average of 29 miles per week. I peaked at 43 miles in 1 week with 7 days of running.

I know increasing my mileage and running frequency will be the priority so that's why I am thinking ahead and not planning a marathon until 2016. My 5K-10K times have levelled out recently so I am looking at marathon training as a way of improving these in the longer term too. I can start increasing my mileage and running frequency before starting a marathon plan but I would like to have an overall plan in my head.

What marathon training plan would work best for me?

Sandwell

The two most popular plans seem to be Pfitzinger and Douglas and Jack Daniels. I've yet to run a marathon but I've been using Pfitzinger's Faster Road Racing for the last couple of months while targeting a 5km and find it very good and easy to follow. The results have been pretty impressive too. I'm sure some of the more experienced marathon heads will be able to weigh up the pros and cons of the different approaches but I suspect it's a somewhat subjective thing and that what works for one person might not necessarily suit the next.

I came across this link recently too although I'm not sure how much weight I'd attach to it: http://fellrnr.com/wiki/A_Comparison_of_Marathon_Training_Plans

RuMan

I was in a similar situation to you about a year ago i reckon. Built up mileage and got my half marathon time down in the 2nd half of last year. Then followed the P&D 18 week plan, with another 10 mile & half in the buildup for my spring marathon this year.
Your 10k time is similar to mine, your 5k is faster but 10 mile a good bit slower. Based on your 10k you should be well capable of going Sub 3 that's assuming you can buildup the mileage without getting injured. Good luck, no rush in doing a marathon.

kipkeino

Sandwell wrote: »

The two most popular plans seem to be Pfitzinger and Douglas and Jack Daniels. I've yet to run a marathon but I've been using Pfitzinger's Faster Road Racing for the last couple of months while targeting a 5km and find it very good and easy to follow. The results have been pretty impressive too. I'm sure some of the more experienced marathon heads will be able to weigh up the pros and cons of the different approaches but I suspect it's a somewhat subjective thing and that what works for one person might not necessarily suit the next.

I came across this link recently too although I'm not sure how much weight I'd attach to it: //fellrnr.com/wiki/A_Comparison_of_Marathon_Training_Plans

I have Jack Daniels 3rd edition somewhere, I must dig it out and review the marathon plans. If I remember correctly there were more than one. From the fellrnr link I presume the plan A is the best for "first time marathoner who has lots of experience and talent at racing shorter distances".

kipkeino

RuMan wrote: »

I was in a similar situation to you about a year ago i reckon. Built up mileage and got my half marathon time down in the 2nd half of last year. Then followed the P&D 18 week plan, with another 10 mile & half in the buildup for my spring marathon this year.
Your 10k time is similar to mine, your 5k is faster but 10 mile a good bit slower. Based on your 10k you should be well capable of going Sub 3 that's assuming you can buildup the mileage without getting injured. Good luck, no rush in doing a marathon.

Is that the P&D 55-70 miles per week for 18 weeks ?

Is there anyone here has followed P&D's plans in a log?
I would like to get a flavour of what they are like before deciding.

NetwerkErrer

kipkeino wrote: »

Is that the P&D 55-70 miles per week for 18 weeks ?

Is there anyone here has followed P&D's plans in a log?
I would like to get a flavour of what they are like before deciding.

Overpronator has had savage success with the P+D 55-70 plan in his log "timber" over the last few months.

Don't copy the plan straight from his log though, get the book so you can understand all the principles and paces as that will be the the main ingredient in making the best of it and getting the best results.

Clearlier

Leaving aside the 10 mile time your drop off in time from 5k to 10k is pretty marked which suggests endurance is lacking. Marathon training will address that and as a bonus improve both of those times.

P&D will suit you very well as it does emphasise aerobic development (tempo runs, marathon paced runs and long runs) which will address any endurance issues.

If you wanted to do Dublin 2015 then you'd be well placed to do the the first of the P&D plans which starts at 33mpw but if you're planning on waiting until next year (either spring or autumn) you could increase your weekly mileage slowly and carefully with a view to picking up the 55-70 plan.

RuMan

kipkeino wrote: »

Is that the P&D 55-70 miles per week for 18 weeks ?

Is there anyone here has followed P&D's plans in a log?
I would like to get a flavour of what they are like before deciding.

Yep that's the one. I'd consider it good for experienced runner with a shorter race backround who need to build endurance. Probably less useful for those who have done a good few marathons already as it's a bit samish with lots of long runs and medium long runs with less emphasis on speed. Has five 20 mile + long runs. Worked for me anyway.

macinalli

kipkeino wrote: »

Is that the P&D 55-70 miles per week for 18 weeks ?

Is there anyone here has followed P&D's plans in a log?
I would like to get a flavour of what they are like before deciding.

I'd say that it's also worth having a look at Krusty's training log - he's used both P&D and Daniels over a number of marathon cycles

demfad

kipkeino wrote: »

I am looking for suggestions for the best marathon plan for a first time marathoner but a relatively experienced runner.

I have been running for the last 8 years and am well into my forties.
I would like to run a good first marathon.
I am prepared to train hard for it so want to get a decent time.
I don't plan on running loads of marathons just 1 or 2 starting in 2016.

My 2014 PBs are:
5K - 16:50
10K - 36:30
10mi - 1:03 (2013 - not max effort)

So far this year I have usually ran 4-5 times per week with an average of 29 miles per week. I peaked at 43 miles in 1 week with 7 days of running.

I know increasing my mileage and running frequency will be the priority so that's why I am thinking ahead and not planning a marathon until 2016. My 5K-10K times have levelled out recently so I am looking at marathon training as a way of improving these in the longer term too. I can start increasing my mileage and running frequency before starting a marathon plan but I would like to have an overall plan in my head.

What marathon training plan would work best for me?

Hi KipKeano.

Here is a pre-season plan (from John Kellogg) that might help you increase mileage and frequency as you transition to marathon training.

This training shouldn't be a struggle. You should only feel enjoyably fatigued after the efforts, and the easy running can be very easy to get the mileage.

"This phase is loosely structured, with the emphasis on rebuilding mileage and on running by feel while covering some of the necessary bases.

2-4 days per week - Progression runs (no pace parameters yet - start slow, gradually and spontaneously increase speed to the high end of aerobic effort and stay there from 30-65 min., with a faster finish if feeling strong)

1-2 days per week - Sets of buildups or strides (ex.: 2-3 sets of 5-6 x 15-40 secs., jogging equal distance between reps and jogging 5-10 min. between sets - always do buildups, strides, and drills WITH the wind, if any) + drills and/or hills on occasion

Every 2 weeks 2-8 min. @ 90% effort (following last set of strides)

1 day every 2 weeks - Long easy run (getting longer each time, last 1-3 miles gradually faster if feeling good) Phase in doubles 1-2 times per week for 2 weeks, 3-4 times per week for 2 weeks, 4-6 times per week after that

Structuring for a master:

You can mix steady runs with progression runs. Just some type of tempo effort, but those prog runs help you cover all the paces.

I usually structure it to give myself 2 days easy after every effort (Im a master too). That means my high mileage periods and recovery periods are always in multiples of 3.

e.g 9 days high then 6 days low

For a niggle Ill take 3 days low. Thats important because with high mileage comes niggles especially as a master. Best to have a sound strategy for navigating around the inevitable niggles. Dont do injury management on the hoof so to speak.

All that said a 15 day block might look like:

E=easy day
P=day with prog run 30-65 mins
S=day with steady even paced run 30-65 mins
Str Sess=Strides session *
L=long run

* 2-3 sets of 5-6 x 200 meters starting at about 5K race pace and going roughly 1 second faster on each successive rep (with the wind if any), jog 200 between reps, jog 1/2 mile to 1 mile between sets. Each set can be started with a 200 at about 1 second faster than the first 200 in the previous set



9 days high:
P,E,E,S,E,E,Str Sess,E,E,L,E,E

6 days low

P,E,E,S,E,E



If you google John Kellogg pdf you'll find a large pdf with loads of stuff there.
That stride session is gold. You need to be doing some fast stuff inc a few ordinary strides at least twice a week during base training.
You'll be wasting the potential gains for all that mileage otherwise.

When your mileage is where you want it, you'll be in good shape to start you're program and you'll still be in base training mode. Youll also have developed your speed along with your general aerobic capabilities.

Whatever way you decide to go: the mileage should feel very managable and sustainable. Thats the correct perceived exertion for adaption/recovery in the base phase.

kipkeino

Great stuff. Lots to take in here. I'll take some time to read up some of the logs and the Kellogg pdf. I have downloaded a file called "The Updated Wisdom of John Kelloff v1.0.pdf". I presume that's the one you refer to Demfad.

It's interesting what you say about only doing the long run once every two weeks. I would have assumed and currently do a long run weekly (albeit only 10-12 miles now). Also about doubles, I have read a bit about the benefits of doubles v's singles, I thought the jury was still out on that? I think I would struggle with doubles, both in terms of physical recovery and time-management. I'll work on getting up to 6/7 days first.

I get the point about strides as a way of maintaining speed. That was something I was looking to see in any marathon plan.

By the way I really should have gone with the KipKeano name, much cooler.

demfad

kipkeino wrote: »

Great stuff. Lots to take in here. I'll take some time to read up some of the logs and the Kellogg pdf. I have downloaded a file called "The Updated Wisdom of John Kelloff v1.0.pdf". I presume that's the one you refer to Demfad.

It's interesting what you say about only doing the long run once every two weeks. I would have assumed and currently do a long run weekly (albeit only 10-12 miles now). Also about doubles, I have read a bit about the benefits of doubles v's singles, I thought the jury was still out on that? I think I would struggle with doubles, both in terms of physical recovery and time-management. I'll work on getting up to 6/7 days first.

I get the point about strides as a way of maintaining speed. That was something I was looking to see in any marathon plan.

By the way I really should have gone with the KipKeano name, much cooler.

That's the pdf allright. Think that schedule is p140-142

Everyone's different re time management.

Youre average European/American elite marathoner will do 13 runs a week: 6 doubles and 1 long run. Ideally you'd run around 100k + a week singles then start adding the doubles. Africans might do 19 runs or more.

Doubles are in if youre on high mileage. But they can be used for time management purposes too.

I don't have time to do big singles so I often do a lot of multiples.
For an example some days I technically do 6 runs:

AM: 1. run to train 2. run from train to work
Lunch: 3. run
PM: 4. run to train 5. run from train to work
Later PM: easy run


(All at a shockingly easy effort.)

That's not an unusual easy day for me.... once a week at-least. I have kids etc. and if I want to run at the level I wish to I have to run at a high mileage and I have to think outside the box.

In base training Ill do two easy days like that followed by some kind of steady effort/prog run the third day (or strides session or long run).

The steady effort might not even be as fast as marathon pace. As long as its strong enough to make you adapt. You'll absorb it 100% in the next 2 days and off you go again.

So whatever way you construct the running days-- the recovery is significant. I never understood that till recently and its made a huge difference to my training. That's the truth. I believe an extra days recovery after each session would improve most runners development.

Slow the easy miles right down, do speed maintenance, sub threshold efforts, add an extra day recovery and up the mileage gradually.

Slowing the easy miles down means your easy days are truly easy and 2/3 of the time your immune system is getting full recovery so you'll be infection proof. (take a good blast of OJ or equiv. when you feel anything coming on too).

You don't have to do a long run every week in base building. (before you start your marathon training). That schedule I'm suggesting would bring you on in terms of aerobic abilities and speed before your marathon training.

If you take a marathon build up as having 2 phases namely:
General training and Specific training

Then there are 3 significant points where a litmus test of fitness would allow someone to predict (to some extent) a possible performance. They would be.

A. right before the marathon
B. between general and specific phase
C. before general phase

Highly developed elites wont have a significant potential to improve point C. from marathon to marathon.

Us recreational runners do however. Time and time again you see recreational runners moving the deckchairs in the marathon phases putting in full marathon cycles to shave just a couple of minutes, even just seconds off a PB.

Surely Point C. is the one that should be targetted for most potential for improvement for recreational runners?

That's what that Kellogg schedule allows. You'll arrive at point C. in training as fit as you've ever been, but still in base training mode, fresh and relaxed. It takes a few months but as long as the overall weekly effort is comfortable and easily sustainable, the improvement will surely come.

KingMambo26

Has anybody got any experience with the Hanson programme? A friend of mine recommended it and I'm halfway through the book. What they suggest makes sense but I haven't heard any first hand accounts so still not sure whether I want to commit to it for DCM this year.

overpronator

KingMambo26 wrote: »

Has anybody got any experience with the Hanson programme? A friend of mine recommended it and I'm halfway through the book. What they suggest makes sense but I haven't heard any first hand accounts so still not sure whether I want to commit to it for DCM this year.

I think aero2k used the Hanson's program to run a good PB in Rotterdam this year?

aero2k

overpronator wrote: »

I think aero2k used the Hanson's program to run a good PB in Rotterdam this year?

Cheers overpronator, you've been paying attention. Well done on your run in London.

I used P & D for Cork last year followed by a version of JD 2Q for DCM 14 - I was targeting a peak mileage of 90 mpw but I think it was just too hard so I had to scale it back a bit.

It's a subjective statement but I think I was in PB shape for Dublin last year - I was 87 secs off my best after losing at least 2 min due to a fueling problem, and looking at the top guys they all lost time due to conditions. What I'm trying to say is that I was in good shape starting into Hanson.

That said, I think Hanson really suited me. I've never had a problem with the distance but I've been fairly weak at running relatively fast for long periods of time. Hanson had about twice as many MP miles as P & D, though spread over 15 sessions, 1 per week. The benefits I got were psychological as well as physical - my legs were feeling a bit stiff for the ten days or so before Rotterdam and on race day, and they never really loosened up, but because I was used to running on tired / tender legs I didn't panic. Again, another subjective comment but I felt much more fit aerobically than ever before.

I followed the advanced plan which maxes out at 63 miles per week - I brought that up to approx. 70 by running on the day off. My longest run was 16.2 miles. There is also a beginners plan. I'm not sure if the Hanson approach is suited to a complete novice though maybe that depends on what the target time is.

I'm trying to make a bit of time to compare my last three marathon cycles which brought me a nice consistent improvement from outside 3 hrs to 2:58, 2:55 and 2:48. When I have that in some sort of sensible form I'll post it up.

kipkeino

aero2k wrote: »

That said, I think Hanson really suited me. I've never had a problem with the distance but I've been fairly weak at running relatively fast for long periods of time. Hanson had about twice as many MP miles as P & D, though spread over 15 sessions, 1 per week. The benefits I got were psychological as well as physical - my legs were feeling a bit stiff for the ten days or so before Rotterdam and on race day, and they never really loosened up, but because I was used to running on tired / tender legs I didn't panic. Again, another subjective comment but I felt much more fit aerobically than ever before.

I followed the advanced plan which maxes out at 63 miles per week - I brought that up to approx. 70 by running on the day off. My longest run was 16.2 miles. There is also a beginners plan. I'm not sure if the Hanson approach is suited to a complete novice though maybe that depends on what the target time is.

.

Thanks Aero2K.
Is there a book with a Hanson plans or a website?

2:48 off 63 mi/wk and max 16.2 long run, sounds impressive but obviously you had plenty of miles in your legs starting out.
Why do you think the Hanson plan might not suit a complete novice?
Other than the miles above, how would you describe the "Hanson approach" ?

PWEI

Sorry for hijacking your thread kipkeino.

Just wondering has anybody tried this Pfitzinger plan?

aero2k

kipkeino wrote: »

Thanks Aero2K.
Is there a book with a Hanson plans or a website?

There's a book - "The Hanson Marathon Method" by Luke Humphries. link I think you can also find the plan on the web, but you won't get the justification or explanation for the various sessions.

kipkeino wrote: »

2:48 off 63 mi/wk and max 16.2 long run, sounds impressive but obviously you had plenty of miles in your legs starting out.

Yes, to be fair I think any structured program would have brought an improvement, but the Hanson one seemed particularly suited to my needs and personality - simple sessions, building one week up on top of another.

The weekly average mileage is around 50-55, 63 is the max.

kipkeino wrote: »

Why do you think the Hanson plan might not suit a complete novice?

I found the sessions hard, but comfortably hard. A feature of my most recent three marathon cycles (starting approx. Jan '14) has been that even though I've often felt I was struggling to hold a pace during sessions, when I'd glance at the watch I'd realise I had actually speeded up. In previous years I struggled much more. I think you need a few years of consistent training to be able to get the best out of any program.

Also. the maximum distance run is 16 miles, and there are only 3 of those run on alternate weeks, the Sunday runs in between are only 10 miles. I reckon anyone that's not already pretty fit aerobically might struggle in the latter stages of a marathon on such a plan. As this was marathon no. 10 for me I had no fears. There's also the confidence thing, a novice might need to have actually run 22 miles of so to believe that everything would be all right on the day.

Finally, and not to be underestimated, the plan is based on the principle of cumulative fatigue, in other words over the last 8 weeks your legs feel fairly beaten up most of the time. I did find it easier than for instance a Jack Daniels plan which might include loads of volume and intensity, but it was still tough. I personally find it easier to recover from high intensity rather than high mileage, but that might be due to my age - I'm 50.

The book does say the plan is aimed at those wanting to improve times. (Note I'm referring to the advanced plan, there is also a beginner's version which might be fine for novices.)

kipkeino wrote: »

Other than the miles above, how would you describe the "Hanson approach" ?

Given my last race result, I'd be tempted to say "Brilliant"!!:D

It's simple, structured, logical, medium mileage, relatively high intensity, purely marathon focused - the "tempo" sessions are a little slower than most other plans and I think they really helped my aerobic fitness.

As well as being my fastest marathon, Rotterdam was by far the most comfortable - I'd put this down to the volume of MP miles and "easy" tempo.

I'll do a proper analysis in a week or two for the technically minded....

KingMambo26

aero2k wrote: »

I'll do a proper analysis in a week or two for the technically minded....

Looking forward to that

viperlogic

kipkeino wrote: »

Is there anyone here has followed P&D's plans in a log?
I would like to get a flavour of what they are like before deciding.

I followed the P&D 55-70M 18 weeks plan last year to go from 3:26 to 2:58 and have it all logged here (starts on page 2). I previously followed the JD plan A.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057204668

adrian522

viperlogic wrote: »

I followed the P&D 55-70M 18 weeks plan last year to go from 3:26 to 2:58 and have it all logged here (starts on page 2). I previously followed the JD plan A.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057204668

Thanks Viperlogic, I'm looking to follow the same plan for Berlin, I asked the following questions of OP on his log. Would you mind giving me your thoughts?

What did you think of the plan?

Anything you would change?

Did you do any races other than the proscribed races?

Did you run the 3 proscribed races in weeks 12, 14 and 16?

is there anything you did change and with the benefit of hindsight, was it the right thing to do?

viperlogic

adrian522 wrote: »

Thanks Viperlogic, I'm looking to follow the same plan for Berlin, I asked the following questions of OP on his log. Would you mind giving me your thoughts? What did you think of the plan?

Best plan I've followed yet. Yes may be boring compared to others but it works. What I believe really stood to me was the long run mid week.

adrian522 wrote: »

Anything you would change?

No

adrian522 wrote: »

Did you do any races other than the proscribed races?

No. Was hard as I love the buzz from racing. You are devoting 18 weeks of hard training, no point potentially messing it up for a small local race and asking the missus for another 18 week visa!

adrian522 wrote: »

Did you run the 3 proscribed races in weeks 12, 14 and 16?

I did two, a 10 miler and half marathon. These really show where you are in your training.

adrian522 wrote: »

is there anything you did change and with the benefit of hindsight, was it the right thing to do?

Nothing I would change, plan is perfect I believe. Remember to train at your current fitness, not your planned fitness. Use a recent (8 weeks) race to determine your fitness. If not, do a race or even a parkrun to see where you are and from there you can calculate your paces. Also read the book, as it explains what to do on the runs, eg the long run is not at a single pace, its progressive. The plan doesn't show that.

adrian522

Thanks yeah, I've read the book and I'll re read some of it again I think. Apart from the races I'll probably find it hard to stay away from the club sessions for the first half of the plan.

Did you do the long run the day after the half?

The way the marathon falls it would make more sense to me to do the Frank Duffy 10 mile, then the Tullamore half the following week even though the plan has them 2 weeks apart, I thnk I'd prefer actual races to time trials.

Thanks for answering the questions!

viperlogic

adrian522 wrote: »

Thanks yeah, I've read the book and I'll re read some of it again I think. Apart from the races I'll probably find it hard to stay away from the club sessions for the first half of the plan.

Did you do the long run the day after the half?

The way the marathon falls it would make more sense to me to do the Frank Duffy 10 mile, then the Tullamore half the following week even though the plan has them 2 weeks apart, I thnk I'd prefer actual races to time trials.

Thanks for answering the questions!

Yup, did the long runs the day after. Wasn't too bad, body gets used to running on tired legs, which will also stand to you on race day.

I had to juggle around the races also and even travel to make the plan work. I'm in Cork but traveled up to Tullamore for the half, great race btw. There was a local option a few weeks later but didn't line up with the plan.

zico10

I followed the 70-80 mile per week training schedule from P & D last year and kept a log here. I stuck very rigidly to the schedule, which was the real key to achievement. I was happy with how the marathon went, but I think it had as much to do with the hard work that went with completing the plan, as it had with any magic formula Pfitzinger & Douglas came up with. It is a generic plan after all.
It's the only tailored marathon plan I have followed, so I can't be sure of this, but I think I would have achieved a similar result had I just as diligently followed a plan from Daniels or any other reputable source. Hard work will be rewarded no matter what plan you decide to follow.
My 5k and 10k PBs did improve over the course of the program. This was certainly as a result of the P & D programme, but I'd still find it hard accept the best way of improving your 5k and 10k times would be to train for a marathon.

ger664

adrian522 wrote: »

Did you do the long run the day after the half?

IMO the most important part of this plan. Having done this twice the first time it was a shock to the system but I got used to running when my legs were totally empty. It is what will get you home in the last 3 miles of a marathon.

nop98

viperlogic wrote: »

I followed the P&D 55-70M 18 weeks plan last year to go from 3:26 to 2:58 and have it all logged here (starts on page 2). I previously followed the JD plan A.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057204668

Your log is quite impressive - thanks for sharing!

aero2k

KingMambo26 wrote: »

Looking forward to that

You might change your mind now! https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8N2ILvWdxnoNmFwYWl4X2F1NW8/view?usp=sharing

Warning to TRR - the linked document contains a pic of me wearing black socks!!
Warning to ultraman1 - and a photo of my Garmin...

Blue Steel

I am looking for the best plan for me.

I see lots of athletes here with great PBs etc ... It's not my case

Goal: complete DCM15 in <4:15
I don't think sub4 is realistic unfortunately given my age (M40) and my shape (mediocre results at the moment).

Background: I couldn't finish DCM14 and I am not planning on running many marathons, I just want to tick the box (but still within the goal finish time).
I am building up gradually to 25-30 mpw.
The good news is I have time to train.

=> Assuming my base is indeed as planned up to 30 mpw by end of June, would P&D <50 miles be a good plan for me? Would that help to reach my goal?

hillsiderunner

Blue Steel wrote: »

Goal: complete DCM15 in <4:15
I don't think sub4 is realistic unfortunately given my age (M40)

Don't say that BlueSteel! In fact it seems that performance on the longer distances doesn't drop off as fast with age ... it's not rare to see over-40s high up in marathon lists.

Blue Steel wrote: »

=> Assuming my base is indeed as planned up to 30 mpw by end of June, would P&D <50 miles be a good plan for me? Would that help to reach my goal?

Bit interested in the response to this for myself. For me it would be my first marathon. Is it reasonable to be looking at P&D 55miles or similar for a first marathon if someone is starting the plan off a 25-30mile base (with LSRs built up to 12-13miles say)?

TFBubendorfer

Blue Steel wrote: »

Goal: complete DCM15 in <4:15
I don't think sub4 is realistic unfortunately given my age (M40)

What the heck are you talking about?

I've run my marathon PB at the age of 43 and haven't given up hope yet that I can still better it. Saying that you can't go sub-4 because you're M40 is just an excuse, and not a good one either.

Clearlier

Blue Steel wrote: »

I am looking for the best plan for me.

I see lots of athletes here with great PBs etc ... It's not my case

Goal: complete DCM15 in <4:15
I don't think sub4 is realistic unfortunately given my age (M40) and my shape (mediocre results at the moment).

Background: I couldn't finish DCM14 and I am not planning on running many marathons, I just want to tick the box (but still within the goal finish time).
I am building up gradually to 25-30 mpw.
The good news is I have time to train.

=> Assuming my base is indeed as planned up to 30 mpw by end of June, would P&D <50 miles be a good plan for me? Would that help to reach my goal?

I'd forget about a time goal for the moment. You're near the start of your running journey so there's a chance that you'll progress in leaps and bounds when you start following a well structured plan. As you go through the plan you'll start to get a feel for what's a realistic goal and you can set a serious time goal when you're a few weeks away from your goal race.

P&D could well be suited to you. Have you reviewed why your first attempt at a marathon failed and addressed all of the reasons? Regardless of whether you use the plans or not the book is worth getting as it's a great introduction to the different types of runs that can be used as part of a training plan. The plans at the back all give minimum pre-requisites for starting each plan. 25-30mpw with a long run of 12 is about what they suggest for the first plan IIRC.

P.S. A guy in my club started running at 33 and set his most recent marathon PB at the age of 40. Plenty of marathon runners have similar stories.

menoscemo

Blue Steel wrote: »

I

=> Assuming my base is indeed as planned up to 30 mpw by end of June, would P&D <50 miles be a good plan for me? Would that help to reach my goal?

hillsiderunner wrote: »

Bit interested in the response to this for myself. For me it would be my first marathon. Is it reasonable to be looking at P&D 55miles or similar for a first marathon if someone is starting the plan off a 25-30mile base (with LSRs built up to 12-13miles say)?

I'd be more comfortable saying yes if you were regularly doing 35-40 mpw. It's not just the mileage it's the intensity of P&D; you'd be upping both.
Now if you were doing 30 miles with say 2 quality sessions then maybe it's be OK. I just think 25-30 MPW is a little flaky for starting the programme as you'd be up to 45-50 MPW with sessions pretty soon after starting it and that might be a big jump up in mileage and intensity.

Blue Steel

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

What the heck are you talking about?

I've run my marathon PB at the age of 43 and haven't given up hope yet that I can still better it. Saying that you can't go sub-4 because you're M40 is just an excuse, and not a good one either.

I'm not saying M40 is the prb.

It is the combination of my age and the fact that my shape isn't the best. I'm only saying the latter because I see lads here who talk about crazy pace and I want an advice that suits me.

To be precise I just did a 5k in 27mn (I am back from nagging injuries). Last year I finished SSE 5M in 42mn (fastest race for me).

I am currently working to increase my aerobic fitness gradually to prevent injuries but be able to follow a plan.

Clearlier wrote: »

Have you reviewed why your first attempt at a marathon failed and addressed all of the reasons?

- I believe I failed because I was undertrained: 3 runs / week + 1 swim / week
- I didn't follow a plan.

I Ran out of gas at mile 22.

hillsiderunner

menoscemo wrote: »

I'd be more comfortable saying yes if you were regularly doing 35-40 mpw. It's not just the mileage it's the intensity of P&D; you'd be upping both.
Now if you were doing 30 miles with say 2 quality sessions then maybe it's be OK. I just think 25-30 MPW is a little flaky for starting the programme as you'd be up to 45-50 MPW with sessions pretty soon after starting it and that might be a big jump up in mileage and intensity.

That's the perfect answer - that was the plan for all of April, May, and June (weeks of about 35miles). It started well with a few weeks of 30+ in March and early April, but I got whacked by a virus and have 2 weeks below 20miles and another week of 0 :mad:. Still not back to normal and it's very hard to know what is best in terms of doing/dropping the runs. Have been doing 1 session most weeks and also racing a parkrun every 2-3 weeks.

I'll wait and see how the next 7 weeks turn out. Have ordered the book now, I think I will enjoy reading it anyway.

menoscemo

hillsiderunner wrote: »

That's the perfect answer - that was the plan for all of April, May, and June (weeks of about 35miles). It started well with a few weeks of 30+ in March and early April, but I got whacked by a virus and have 2 weeks below 20miles and another week of 0 :mad:. Still not back to normal and it's very hard to know what is best in terms of doing/dropping the runs. Have been doing 1 session most weeks and also racing a parkrun every 2-3 weeks.

I'll wait and see how the next 7 weeks turn out. Have ordered the book now, I think I will enjoy reading it anyway.

Yes the book is well worth reading. In fact I would say don't even consider doing the plan until you have read the book because you will just end up doing the runs at the wrong paces/intensities unless you understand the concepts behind them.

For context I followed P&D 33-55 mpw programme for my second marathon. Before I started it I had covered 1000 miles over 6 months (averaging about 37 miles/week for half a year). So when i did the first week it felt like a stepback week (33 miles over 4 runs) as I had been running 5/6 times a week. A month or two in though the programme was already far from easy, in fact it was pretty intense for me at the time and I got a few minor injuries.

hillsiderunner

menoscemo wrote: »

For context I followed P&D 33-55 mpw programme for my second marathon. Before I started it I had covered 1000 miles over 6 months (averaging about 37 miles/week for half a year). So when i did the first week it felt like a stepback week (33 miles over 4 runs) as I had been running 5/6 times a week. A month or two in though the programme was already far from easy, in fact it was pretty intense for me at the time and I got a few minor injuries.

Oh.

That total will only be 700miles for me even if the next two months go perfect. So will read the book but maybe it would need to be the plan for a later marathon (maybe London 2016 if I get in!)

(sorry for the detour OP)

AuldManKing

aero2k wrote: »

You might change your mind now! https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8N2ILvWdxnoNmFwYWl4X2F1NW8/view?usp=sharing

Warning to TRR - the linked document contains a pic of me wearing black socks!!
Warning to ultraman1 - and a photo of my Garmin...

Nice work!

menoscemo

hillsiderunner wrote: »

Oh.

That total will only be 700miles for me even if the next two months go perfect. So will read the book but maybe it would need to be the plan for a later marathon (maybe London 2016 if I get in!)

(sorry for the detour OP)

In Fairness I had only been running for 12 months in total before starting the plan and I know you have been running for years so the base might be better overall.

I'd say read the book, understand the plans and then decide. There is also the possibiity of spending an extra 6 weeks base building (say getting up to 40-50 miles per week of easy running) and then doing the 12 week programme. Either way; if you are fit for the programme and complete it you will certainly achieve a much better time compared to say a hal haigdon novice plan

hillsiderunner

menoscemo wrote: »

In Fairness I had only been running for 12 months in total before starting the plan and I know you have been running for years so the base might be better overall.

I'd say read the book, understand the plans and then decide. There is also the possibiity of spending an extra 6 weeks base building (say getting up to 40-50 miles per week of easy running) and then doing the 12 week programme. Either way; if you are fit for the programme and complete it you will certainly achieve a much better time compared to say a hal haigdon novice plan

No worries, there is no way I'd go near a HH plan ....
I know lots of people use them but the ratio of his long-run distance to weekly-mileage is very high, and he takes forever to build up the weekly mileage.

Have an adapted version of the Boards plan that I did-up for the spring marathon that didn't happen - Clearlier thought it looked ok so it will either be that, or maybe the P&D if I hit a groove of cough-less running over the next months.

KingMambo26

aero2k wrote: »

You might change your mind now! https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8N2ILvWdxnoNmFwYWl4X2F1NW8/view?usp=sharing

Warning to TRR - the linked document contains a pic of me wearing black socks!!
Warning to ultraman1 - and a photo of my Garmin...

Thanks aero2k! Re: black socks, there are certain things that cannot be un-seen!

KingMambo26

I found an interesting comparison of the different training plans in the link below. Any thoughts?

http://fellrnr.com/wiki/A_Comparison_of_Marathon_Training_Plans#Jack_Daniels_Running_Formula

kookiebrew

Just spotted this thread... Finished Limerick marathon Sunday using Hanson Method... Was my first marathon

39 yrs old, been running 10 months before I started the plan totalling roughly 470miles including 3 half marathons.. Quickest half being 1:46.

Set myself a goal of 3:50, never missed a day of the plan and finished in a time of 3:50:59... Was on target to finish below my time but hammy went and stopped for a few mins to stretch it out...

I loved the plan itself esp how structured it was. Every run is set as a certain pace, calculated from your goal pace, with 3 sos (something of substance, speed/strength, tempo and long) runs a week. I thought before I started I'd never be able to run all the miles but I did and gotta say I actually enjoyed the plan. If you decide to use the plan I'd recommend buying the book though as it goes into detail on everything and I found myself constantly reading back over it throughout my training.

I can't compare it to any other plan but it did work for me as a beginner plan and I would recommend it to anyone who is willing to train 6 days a week.