5 years on - is Network Direct working?

thomasj

its mad to think that this week 5 years on, Dublin bus announced network direct.

5 years on, and with most of it fully implemented, have the changes benefitted you?

It has worked for me mostly, the 17a and 39a I use a lot and its great to get to the city quicker with the 39a or to finglas/coolock with the 17a and to parts we can get to now we couldn't get to previously without changing buses. The introduction of rtpi and leap cards has also helped.

There are some downsides, we could be waiting for long periods of time followed by 2 buses coming together. That should be reviewed.

But overall it has benefited since the introduction.

Anyone else have any thought s?

And on a side note, have db given up on the swords/27b/79 changes? 5 years is a long time to take to implement changes.

Here's the link to the original thread http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2055890836/1

SteM

1 bus journey became 2 bus journeys. Have moved to doing my commute by bike 3 days a week (30k round trip) and by car 2 days a week. Only use the bus if I'm having a pint in town after work which would be fairly rare.

markpb

It worked for me. Between making the 17a take a detour into the hospital, prevaricating over changes to the 27b and never getting around to improving the Swords road corridor, I moved onto a Luas line and haven't used a Dublin Bus since. Five years of stress-free commuting.

I accept that I'm only a poll of one and the changes will have been beneficial for others but for me, the eye opener was just how disorganised and convoluted the process was. Once the politicians and DOT more or less got out of the way, all of DBs internal problems (poor scheduling, union inflexibility, weak customer communications and no attention to detail) came to the fore.

It's worth bearing in mind that LA metro review their bus routes every six months and make sometimes major changes every time. It took several years to do 75% of a review here.

Aard

The only bus route that I rely on is the 14. It's now so unreliable that I'll take the Luas + 20 minute walk instead. Even though the 14 would drop me to the door. Allegedly there are known running time issues with the 14. Apparently they've been ignored.

stehyl15

I have to say the 63 has been one of the sucess stories of nework direct its gone from an empty un-frequent bus going into town basically running parallel to the old 84 and the 46a its become a decent reliable service connecting the green line luas and the dart and half hour frequency is good also it means the 46a doesn't have to serve monkstown farm. I found a petition group of absoulute ejits that the 46a to go through Stillorgan Village. The 145 going to Hueston is also great meaning you don't change to the luas if your going to Hueston.

n97 mini

No. I live beside a train station on the Maynooth line, which is close to the bus terminus of the 66A. Off peak we used to have an hourly service on the bus and an hourly service on the train, ~30 minutes apart. Now the bus departs at *exactly* the same time as the train, competing with it rather than complimenting it. We lost one service in the morning peak and the last bus from city centre is 20 minutes earlier than it used to be (23.10 now).

The upside is the timetable is almost clockface.

LXFlyer

Aard wrote: »

The only bus route that I rely on is the 14. It's now so unreliable that I'll take the Luas + 20 minute walk instead. Even though the 14 would drop me to the door. Allegedly there are known running time issues with the 14. Apparently they've been ignored.

There is a new timetable on the 14 from today that addresses the running time issues.

http://dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/14-21/

It should result in a much reliable service.

I'd dispute though that the service on the 14 has been entirely unreliable as I use that route quite a lot too. There are certain times of the day during the week (second half of morning peak, and some of the evening peak, that there are problems, and certain times at weekends, but by and large off peak it's fine.

The new timetable allows extra time to make each trip so it should mean that the service does become reliable again throughout the day.

Aard

Good stuff on the timetable change. Better late than never. Personally I would rely on the 14 for evening peak and weekend travel. Last time I tried to make the journey, I waited in town for 20 minutes then the bus dropped off the RTPI. Waited another 10. Nada. Walked to SSG and took the Luas and then walked again.

I'm sure ND has had a lot of positives, but for me personally the bus has lost all usefulness.

LXFlyer

Aard wrote: »

Good stuff on the timetable change. Better late than never. Personally I would rely on the 14 for evening peak and weekend travel. Last time I tried to make the journey, I waited in town for 20 minutes then the bus dropped off the RTPI. Waited another 10. Nada. Walked to SSG and took the Luas and then walked again.

I'm sure ND has had a lot of positives, but for me personally the bus has lost all usefulness.

Well I would suggest you have another look at the 14 timetable.

With the extra running time, it should work.

While there have been particular departures that have had issues, it's not something that has affected all of them by any means.

cdebru

lxflyer wrote: »

Well I would suggest you have another look at the 14 timetable.

With the extra running time, it should work.

While there have been particular departures that have had issues, it's not something that has affected all of them by any means.

A lot of people get the same buses everyday, so if those become unrelaible the route for them is unreliable no.matter how well the route runs an hour earlier or later, one of the problems with DB is how long it takes to address these problems.

LXFlyer

cdebru wrote: »

A lot of people get the same buses everyday, so if those become unrelaible the route for them is unreliable no.matter how well the route runs an hour earlier or later, one of the problems with DB is how long it takes to address these problems.

That's a very fair point. But it is worth making that distinction.

Don't me get started on that latter point.

The issues with the 14 should have been addressed 3 years ago.

Aard

lxflyer wrote: »

Well I would suggest you have another look at the 14 timetable.

At this stage I've learnt that if I stay on my Dublin Bike until Charlemont I can make the return journey by Luas for €2.78 compared to €4.10 by bus. Less expensive, more comfortable, more frequent, more reliable, more exercise for me, and less time sitting on my arse. It's a win all around.

I'm not bus-bashing. But for me the bus is now an irrelevant mode of transport. I've even taken a taxi once due to the problems with the 14. Once you go Bike+Luas, you don't go back :pac:

stehyl15

If my memory serves me correct wasn't the 14 hourly pre nework direct so its a far more frequent service now than pre network direct what happened to the proposed 175 that was supposed to go via the new monkstown link road.

loyatemu

Was "Network Direct" ever actually completed, seemed to just fizzle out. I thought we were supposed to end up with a number of high-frequency trunk routes that would be presented on a clear map and renumbered so the system would be simpler to visualise & understand. Most of that didn't happen...

stehyl15

loyatemu wrote: »

Was "Network Direct" ever actually completed, seemed to just fizzle out. I thought we were supposed to end up with a number of high-frequency trunk routes that would be presented on a clear map and renumbered so the system would be simpler to visualise & understand. Most of that didn't happen...

Wasn't that the idea of that whole network noel thing about a year ago

thomasj

stehyl15 wrote: »

Wasn't that the idea of that whole network noel thing about a year ago

Eh I would hope not!

He seemed to disappear after a few ads, but in fairness the nta made not a bad effort on transport maps for Dublin.

stehyl15

thomasj wrote: »

Eh I would hope not!

He seemed to disappear after a few ads, but in fairness the nta made not a bad effort on transport maps for Dublin.

Yeah but its still on the Dublin Bus website

rx8

The Executive who was in charge of ND, left the company.Retired I believe and hasn't been replaced. That's why the project stalled before completion.

Aard

Luas BXD will undoubtedly precipitate Network Direct Mark II. Sooner or later the NTA will bite the bullet and install a more grid-like bus network in the city centre.

stehyl15

I think making the 44 cross city was a disaster considering the terminus is Enniskerry which is a good bit out in fact in Co.Wicklow. I think Dublin Bus should review it outer suburban network. Which could decrease journey times and increase frequency. Bring in integrated ticketing so you so you go from say Newcastle to Bray on an 84 changing at Bray to 145 and continuing to Town and scrap outer suburban fare heres a few changes that could be done.

33- Airport to Balbriggan/Skerries (half hourly) allow passengers to use my proposed integrated ticketing on the 16/41

44- Go from Dundrum Luas interchange to Enniskerry indroduce after Luas cross city has commenced

65- Have an hourly connection from Tallaght Luas to Blessington/Ballynocken/Ballymore and bring in variants 65 to Blessington 65a to Ballymore 65b as is 65d to Ballyknocken

84/a- Keep it from Blackrock to Newcastle hourly and use and have the 84a go from Bray Station to Newscastle on the half hour

KD345

stehyl15 wrote: »

I think making the 44 cross city was a disaster considering the terminus is Enniskerry which is a good bit out in fact in Co.Wicklow and the fact that a cross city service should be high frequency its hourly which makes its running times a disaster whats next a 145 and 33 merger.

I don't agree. How are it's running times a disaster? They are actually pretty reliable and buses are generally given plenty of time to complete the journey. I use the service a lot and find it great. It offers good connections to DCU, it solved the problem of providing a service to Larkhill, and offers additional capacity on Swords Road. I honestly don't see the disaster you claim? What issues have you had with the service?

The only thing I would recommend for the 44 would be an increased frequency on Sundays. The buses to Enniskerry are usually full, a more frequent service could be introduced as part of the summer timetable to cater for tourists etc. The traffic issues around Dundrum can be a nightmare at times, but that's not the fault of the 44.

lucernarian

I am concerned that existing cross-city routes (like the 9 maybe but especially the 83, 11 and 4) were not improved further under the concept of Network Direct, in my opinion. Like the 4's service is often inadequate and services really should be more frequent, especially at weekends. Having used the 11 a lot last year and the year before, its reliability was not great either. And the 11 route was going to be curtailed with initial Network Direct proposals.

Network Direct worked well for me on routes like the 1 and the 46A.

LeinsterDub

4 became useless after this. 83 was compromised by 83a. Too many buses still run via o Connell St. Bus stops every 200 metres.


Total failure in my book

stehyl15

KD345 wrote: »

I don't agree. How are it's running times a disaster? They are actually pretty reliable and buses are generally given plenty of time to complete the journey. I use the service a lot and find it great. It offers good connections to DCU, it solved the problem of providing a service to Larkhill, and offers additional capacity on Swords Road. I honestly don't see the disaster you claim? What issues have you had with the service?

The only thing I would recommend for the 44 would be an increased frequency on Sundays. The buses to Enniskerry are usually full, a more frequent service could be introduced as part of the summer timetable to cater for tourists etc. The traffic issues around Dundrum can be a nightmare at times, but that's not the fault of the 44.

Because if the route is way too infrequent half hour frequency between Dundrum and Enniskerry would only require two or three buses I think they should have kept the old number 3 and extended it to DCU which give a connection between the cities three main universites DCU and UCD and stopping outside Trinity of course.

stehyl15

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Too many buses still run via o Connell St. Bus stops every 200 metres.

Maybe because its the main throughfare in the cc

KD345

stehyl15 wrote: »

Because if the route is way too infrequent half hour frequency between Dundrum and Enniskerry would only require two or three buses .

That's very different from your earlier claim that the running time is a disaster. What you're calling for is a more frequent timetable. I'm typing this post on a busy 44 heading into the city. Maybe additional buses are required between Dundrum and Enniskerry, but the cross city 44 is far from a 'disaster'.

lucernarian

stehyl15 wrote: »

Because if the route is way too infrequent half hour frequency between Dundrum and Enniskerry would only require two or three buses I think they should have kept the old number 3 and extended it to DCU which give a connection between the cities three main universites DCU and UCD and stopping outside Trinity of course.

The 11 bus partially fills that gap. Goes from DCU to UCD's Clonskeagh Road end.

LXFlyer

LeinsterDub wrote: »

4 became useless after this. 83 was compromised by 83a. Too many buses still run via o Connell St. Bus stops every 200 metres.


Total failure in my book

That's a bit of an overstatement.

I'd agree that the 4 timetable on Sundays is absolutely ludicrous, but to say that the route is "useless" is pushing it a bit. It's still every 15 minutes on weekdays - that is hardly "useless".

The 83a means that a total of 2 stops on the 83 in either direction are not served - again hardly a reason to brand it a "total failure". The stops concerned are within walking distance of an alternative.

What were DB to do - the residents of Tolka Estate kicked up an almighty fuss and campaigned for the service to be reinstated.

LeinsterDub

stehyl15 wrote: »

Maybe because its the main throughfare in the cc

Gardeners St is a 3 minute walk from O'Connell st and is under used. 4 buses go l down Ballymun Road, they all go to O'Connell st

LXFlyer

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Gardeners St is a 3 minute walk from O'Connell st and is under used. 4 buses go l down Ballymun Road, they all go to O'Connell st

O'Connell Street is also where most people want to go - the other routes have far less traffic generators.

People are going either side of OCS, meaning it is much more convenient.

dfx-

Mix and match whether it works.

My infrequent local route has improved immensely from the squalid disgrace that existed immediately prior to the change. The 56A, 75 minute frequency all day every day, departures at the exact same times, perfect.

My 'frequent' local route, the 13 is now a squalid mess from the previously reliable and outstanding 51B/51C. The 51B and 51C service was flawless. The 13 is a farce. Frequency on and especially off peak is a shambles, the capacity is shocking and the length of route is disastrous.

Should it not be the other way around?

David086

dfx- wrote: »

Mix and match whether it works.

My 'frequent' local route, the 13 is now a squalid mess from the previously reliable and outstanding 51B/51C. The 51B and 51C service was flawless. The 13 is a farce. Frequency on and especially off peak is a shambles, the capacity is shocking and the length of route is disastrous.

Should it not be the other way around?

100% agree on the 13, it's a nightmare, a stagecoach we call it. I always prefer getting the 69 when I can as it flies in but that's only an hourly service.

dfx-

The thing is that anyone with half a brain would know beforehand that a route going through DCU/Drumcondra/Parnell Sq/Dame St/Thomas St/Bluebell and Red Cow would be crazy, but it still went ahead. Then they tried to make it work changing running times, but now it has just degenerated and been left to rot.

I would say the 14 and 15 have hugely improved numbers, but that might also be seeing full buses rather than improved services, the 65B should go back through Tallaght Village and again a similar thing to the 13, the 77A is far far too long.

There are too many overly long major routes.

stehyl15

lxflyer wrote: »

What were DB to do - the residents of Tolka Estate kicked up an almighty fuss and campaigned for the service to be reinstated.

DB and the NTA give in way too easy when it comes to these residents groups wanting a service reinstated the I saw a petetion group on facebook that want the 46a back in stillorgan village now that just takes the biscuit but even with dublin bus' soft touch i can't how far that going to get the monkstown farm residents were another group of ejits i think the 63 is a decent service a small residental area dosen't need or justify a high frequency cross city service.

LXFlyer

stehyl15 wrote: »

DB and the NTA give in way too easy when it comes to these residents groups wanting a service reinstated the I saw a petetion group on facebook that want the 46a back in stillorgan village now that just takes the biscuit but even with dublin bus' soft touch i can't how far that going to get the monkstown farm residents were another group of ejits i think the 63 is a decent service a small residental area dosen't need or justify a high frequency cross city service.

Really? Frankly this comes across as more hyperbole from someone unfamiliar with the local situation in that area.


The two situations are not the same.


In Monkstown Farm the 46a was rerouted along Kill Avenue, the 4 extended along the northerly end of the area, and a replacement local service (the 63) provided through the area every 30 minutes, which has created lots of new journeys to Cornelscourt for example.


In the Tolka Estate, an area with a significant older population, the bus was withdrawn and no replacement offered. Local residents and politicians lobbied for a service, and the compromise was one bus an hour in either direction during off-peak hours on the 83 would be re-routed to serve the estate as an 83a.


It's not ideal as it does mean two stops on the 83 have a longer gap each hour, but it's a suitable compromise. It's hardly having a "soft touch". More perhaps, recognising that the locals did have a case?


The 83 and 46a are completely different types of routes. Both are cross-city, but the 46a is a principal route for the N11 and NCR sticking to the main roads throughout. The 83 is more of a community service, serving the estates at either end and providing a service along more minor roads.

AlekSmart

rx8 wrote: »

The Executive who was in charge of ND, left the company.Retired I believe and hasn't been replaced. That's why the project stalled before completion.

The Exec in charge,responsible for Network Direct's implimentation has in fact recently been chosen to succeed the outgoing CEO,Paddy Doherty,who retires in June.

It is not totally correct to say the ND project is "Stalled",however any significant alterations are unlikely before the commencement of Luas BXD.

The route 44 alterations have proven to be basically sound,with the DCU/Helix extension proving increasingly popular.

If anything,the 44 route may be a candidate for increased resources via any NTA inspired improvements which could yet emanate from the current route-tendering impasse.

The most serious issue with the 44's route,largely stems from the almost criminal deleriction of duty and sanity by those involved the the Dundrum Town Centre project.

Those "Planners" responsible for the current traffic (mis)management layout on the Sandyford Road side of the DTC should,after their dismissal,face further questioning as to what substances they were taking when they signed off on the project.

Aard

What do you mean wrt Sandyford Road / Dundrum problems?

Carlos Orange

stehyl15 wrote: »

I found a petition group of absoulute ejits that the 46a to go through Stillorgan Village. The 145 going to Hueston is also great meaning you don't change to the luas if your going to Hueston.

The 145 going to Hueston seemed like a terrible idea to me. It routed the 145 closer to where I lived but half the time it didn't stop at the bus stop since it was full of people who wanted to go 3 or 4 stops into the city center. Stopping the 46a going into Stillorgan Village made that a little more palatable but still a net loss. Then I quit my job and neither change really mattered (to me).

AlekSmart

Aard wrote: »

What do you mean wrt Sandyford Road / Dundrum problems?

Having so much Car Park traffic entering and exiting through the same gates onto the original Sandyford Road,with no traffic management of any form,coupled with retaining the road at it's original width,ensures that 44's become slaves to whatever Dundrum Town Centre's shopping patterns are.

Even a cursory look at the Taxi-Rank arrangements show just how cursory a glance the planners took at Public Transport requirements vs the dominant position of the Private Car.

stehyl15

Ok the thing about the 44 imo is that when luas cross city comes in much of the route will run parallel to the luas

Aard

AlekSmart wrote: »

Having so much Car Park traffic entering and exiting through the same gates onto the original Sandyford Road,with no traffic management of any form,coupled with retaining the road at it's original width,ensures that 44's become slaves to whatever Dundrum Town Centre's shopping patterns are.

Even a cursory look at the Taxi-Rank arrangements show just how cursory a glance the planners took at Public Transport requirements vs the dominant position of the Private Car.

I wonder could/should the 44 run on the Dundrum Bypass?

stehyl15

psinno wrote: »

The 145 going to Hueston seemed like a terrible idea to me. It routed the 145 closer to where I lived but half the time it didn't stop at the bus stop since it was full of people who wanted to go 3 or 4 stops into the city center. Stopping the 46a going into Stillorgan Village made that a little more palatable but still a net loss. Then I quit my job and neither change really mattered (to me).

When luas cc comes in they make only pick up in the city centre

KD345

stehyl15 wrote: »

Ok the thing about the 44 imo is that when luas cross city comes in much of the route will run parallel to the luas

The Cross City Luas will have no impact on anybody going to Drumcondra, Larkhill or DCU. It will pass it the 44 at Westmoreland and O'Connell stops (like many other routes) but that's it.

The 44 is already running with Luas on the southside but works well. It serves the areas around Sandford/Milltown which are a distance from the green line. It's routing via Westland Row is popular with those heading to the IFSC and Docklands.

LuckyLloyd

Yeah dfx, the rejuvenation of the 56a is fantastic. Get it back from the City Centre to my parents and you know where you are with it. Not high frequency but super reliable now. I remember the 56 / 56a joke shop - great victory for common sense imo.

Corruptedmorals

It hasn't changed the 66/B to a noticeable degree. Different timetable but they still seem to arrive together. As for my second bus, I wasn't getting the 27/77A/151 pre network direct.

loyatemu

loyatemu wrote: »

Was "Network Direct" ever actually completed, seemed to just fizzle out. I thought we were supposed to end up with a number of high-frequency trunk routes that would be presented on a clear map and renumbered so the system would be simpler to visualise & understand. Most of that didn't happen...

The 79/27b merger was never implemented.

frankoreagan

13 is useless compared to what it replaced, especially off peak. I usually just end up waiting around for the 69, which is fantastic because it was left alone in ND after they briefly attempted to cancel it. 40 is shocking too, 2 or 3 buses arriving at the same time happens frequently enough.

Victor

I can now get two direct buses, that will get me within 5 minutes of work. With the recent fare changes, this means I can do it for €2.05 instead of €3.55. I also have the option of changing buses midway and it will cost €2.55. If Clanbrassil Street-Christchuirch got more routes, my service would be faster again. The College Green bus gate and the diversion of routes via Camden Street has improved service speed.

I also have a limited service that will get me direct to my sister's place.

Where it falls down is extended driver changes in the city centre, including on peak-time services and the failure to make other bus lanes continuous.

Aard

Victor wrote: »

If Clanbrassil Street-Christchuirch got more routes, my service would be faster again.

Such a neglected route. Especially with Luas Cross City displacing many bus routes onto Aungier Street -- some more bus routes could have been moved to Patrick Street. The 16 comes to mind.