planting the home place

bigtomw

Hi lads, I'm just looking to see if anyone has been in my situation and a bit of advice, I'm coming to the realisation that I am never really going to farm the home place, due to the amount of neglect over the years and amount of money I would have to sink into it, it was leased out for the past 18 years and isn't in great shape, I am now trying to think with my head rather than my heart, I am 26 and have 2 young children to bring up, I have aprox 100 acres I was thinking of planting the majority of it and just keeping back 8 acres for myself, like I said I am 26 so would probably see the benefit from the clear fall, has anyone here planted their whole home place before and what did your family make of it,

viztopia

Am not involved in forestry but I would advise you not to plant as once you do this there is no turning back ie it's for life. Land prices are making really good prices for rent at the moment and there are now big tax breaks on renting land for the landlord. You should be able to get someone good to pay a good price and tidy things up also. You never know - one of your kids may take an interest in farming in years to come !

fergus1001

bigtomw wrote:

Hi lads, I'm just looking to see if anyone has been in my situation and a bit of advice, I'm coming to the realisation that I am never really going to farm the home place, due to the amount of neglect over the years and amount of money I would have to sink into it, it was leased out for the past 18 years and isn't in great shape, I am now trying to think with my head rather than my heart, I am 26 and have 2 young children to bring up, I have aprox 100 acres I was thinking of planting the majority of it and just keeping back 8 acres for myself, like I said I am 26 so would probably see the benefit from the clear fall, has anyone here planted their whole home place before and what did your family make of it,

First of all where are you based ? I would recommend getting in touch with a few forestry companies an seeing what your options are, I can give you a few names to try if you want

viztopia wrote:

Land prices are making really good prices for rent at the moment and there are now big tax breaks on renting land for the landlord.

Forestry is tax free and you will make as much per acre for the first 15 years of forestry and then bigger rewards from years 15 onwards than renting out the land (plus it's less risky)

tony007

fergus1001 wrote: »

First of all where are you based ? I would recommend getting in touch with a few forestry companies an seeing what your options are, I can give you a few names to try if you want



Forestry is tax free and you will make as much per acre for the first 15 years of forestry and then bigger rewards from years 15 onwards than renting out the land (plus it's less risky)

But after the 1st crop, surely it becomes less profitable.

TomOnBoard

viztopia wrote: »

Am not involved in forestry but I would advise you not to plant as once you do this there is no turning back ie it's for life. Land prices are making really good prices for rent at the moment and there are now big tax breaks on renting land for the landlord. You should be able to get someone good to pay a good price and tidy things up also. You never know - one of your kids may take an interest in farming in years to come !

Regrettably, Viztopia is quite correct, although its not just for life- its forever! Once planted it not very easy to 'un-plant', i.e. reverse the decision. It becomes unavailable to non-forestry farming forever. This is a 'lock-in' of land usage that exists in no other sector of Irish Agriculture to my knowledge. Any Dairy farmer can take the land out of dairy and can move into barley, or market gardening or rape seed oil production or growing grape vines etc. etc. if/when s/he wishes (leaving out any consideration of whether such a move is economically viable of course).

For example, who would have thought 15 years ago that rape seed oil would become so sought after as a premium product? Closing off access to such alternative activities for all future generations on that land is a hugely responsible decision for you to take now, and could be regretted later. I'm not so sure that you should get a Forestry company in to get advice on options- The advice they give you is only likely to deal with what species etc you ought to plant- they are highly unlikely to advise you not to go into forestry at all, as they have such a vested interest.

Just my 2 cents worth.....

fergus1001

It depends what kind of ground your talking about if it's good arable ground I'd be the first one to say it would be a sin to plant this ground (being from a tillage farm and also a qualified Forester I'm on both sides of the fence).



But over 40 years you have to look at the figures according to coford a conifer forest is worth 12,345 (original figure was per 10 hectares I converted this figure to a per acre basis) is what ever other activity you can do with said land worth more than this ? Then don't plant, but if other crops ect don't pay as well go plant that land

TheBody

My father planted the homeplace 10 years ago. I have now inheritated it.

From my perspective, I hate the forest. I hate to prune it. I hate to fill in any forms for it. I hate to even look at it.

I really wish my father had leased it out. As said before, I have no choice but keep it in forest.

It's a big decision. I just hope you make the right one.

bigtomw

fergus1001 wrote: »

It depends what kind of ground your talking about if it's good arable ground I'd be the first one to say it would be a sin to plant this ground (being from a tillage farm and also a qualified Forester I'm on both sides of the fence).



But over 40 years you have to look at the figures according to coford a conifer forest is worth 12,345 (original figure was per 10 hectares I converted this figure to a per acre basis) is what ever other activity you can do with said land worth more than this ? Then don't plant, but if other crops ect don't pay as well go plant that land

My land probably couldn't get any further away from tillage land

blue5000

It's a hard one to call, I planted very wet land about 10 years ago, no regrets yet as I'm still getting the forestry premium and in a wet summer we were lucky if we got a week's grazing off it. As already said it is a permanent decision. I would suggest planting the worst 10-20 acres, long term leasing the rest, that AFAIK is pretty good tax wise. An accountant would probably be a better person to talk to than a forester.

TomOnBoard

If the land is not capable of being much more than poor grazing, and won't support any other activity, then clearly your options are more limited than if it was good quality with many potential uses.

So, as said earlier, find out what all parcels of the land is capable of being used for. If you find a few Ha are capable of being afforested but not much good for anything else, then by all means, the forestry crop becomes the absolute best use for that parcel. Even small parcels can be afforested, although harvesting etc by machine will be compromised down the road. But you're likely to get it planted and fenced for the grant, so the premium may make significant sense from an economic standpoint, AND you will have your own firewood source from blowdowns, plant deaths, removal of crooked stems in earlier years, to thinning proceeds after 15-20 years.

Not to mention the environmental/windbreak benefits of wisely planned multiple species plantations. Also, independently of the above, all landowners should consider fencing off 5 * 5 m sections in their fields (obviously not to impede machine usage) and planting trees that will beautify the landscape over time such as Oaks, Willows, Sycamore etc. If the fellas way back in 1700-1900 hadn't done that on their estates, the Irish landscape might look very different (and not in a good way) today. I have 3 Oaks that are over 100 years old on a high point in my forest and when my kids were young they used to have great sport climbing and sitting in those old trees, where so many natural seats and tables had formed metres off the ground. Mystical! And one can only imaging the number of other children (and adults) who had rested on those seats all through the decades since long before this state came into being....

So, the advice being given here is very good and ought to help you decide. Once you have identified the potential uses of the various parcels, the forestry guys will then be useful to advise on species etc.

SILVAMAN

tony007 wrote: »

But after the 1st crop, surely it becomes less profitable.

It may become less profitable in terms of not receiving grant-aid or premia, but historically forestry has shown a rate of return of 4-6%.
The second crop is usually superior to the first due to the ameliorated status of the soil thanks to the first crop.
The problem in Ireland is that people have planted,shut the gate, taken the premia and not bothered to look after the crop. If you don not tend the crop, it will not realise its potential. Correct establishment is vital, then you have to keep an eye on it and intervene to get the best from the crop.

TomOnBoard

SILVAMAN wrote: »

It may become less profitable in terms of not receiving grant-aid or premia, but historically forestry has shown a rate of return of 4-6%.
The second crop is usually superior to the first due to the ameliorated status of the soil thanks to the first crop.
The problem in Ireland is that people have planted,shut the gate, taken the premia and not bothered to look after the crop. If you don not tend the crop, it will not realise its potential. Correct establishment is vital, then you have to keep an eye on it and intervene to get the best from the crop.

Perhaps another problem in Ireland is that the goalposts get moved arbitrarily over time by the organs of the State that have a responsibility for managing the State's interests in forestry.

Some of the people in the Forest Service play games with the subservient forest owner. Commitments made in the mid-1990s, not recorded in THEIR file, are subsequently not honoured, for example. And all kinds of Section this and Sub-Section that are trotted out 20 years later. Of course, the owner should maintain a file as detailed as that held by the State upon him/her, but that's grand in retrospect. At the time, trust prevailed; little did one suspect that the Pixie- heads would find a mechanism to weasle out of their responsibilities.

Well,
Fool me Once, Shame on You;
Fool me Twice, Shame on Me for allowing you, and for not learning from the way you acted the first time around!

Hence, if you proceed with your idea, just ensure that you get a clear written record of any/all agreements with everyone involved. As was famously said, allegedly by Samuel Goldman of MGM, the movie company, "an oral agreement isn't worth the paper it's written on"...

With experiences such as this, we sometimes find ourselves holding a Poisoned Chalice- And then the law says that we can't get out!! It's really no wonder that the gate gets locked, and the crop does not get looked after. Very quickly, initial enthusiasm and interest is murdered on the altar of bureaucracy, and yet another shi&&y plantation joins the plethora of other shi&&y plantations that have gone before. But, not to worry, the lads/lassies in the F.S. will be able to get their increments and promotions, because the crude measurement of success has traditionally been focused on planting rate over time.

So spare a thought for the ones who got into the Forestry game, primarily due to slick marketing by the State, that ultimately ended up with the land owner becoming surreptitiously deprived of the right to do whatever the hell he/she wishes with his/her own land, once the initially contracted period has elapsed.

The Guards at the Galway Races used to harangue the three-card trick boys for much less..

SILVAMAN

TomOnBoard wrote: »

So spare a thought for the ones who got into the Forestry game, primarily due to slick marketing by the State, that ultimately ended up with the land owner becoming surreptitiously deprived of the right to do whatever the hell he/she wishes with his/her own land, once the initially contracted period has elapsed. .

We can all understand the annoyance of the Dept. telling someone they have overdeclared a parcel or that that their insistence that their neighbour owns part of their land;), and the onus being put on the farmer to prove otherwise.
However I think it is clear that once you plant your land it stays afforested under the 1946 Act-that's never been a secret.
What is more galling is the increased state interference is private business as is evidenced in the 2013 Forestry Act.

SILVAMAN

fergus1001 wrote: »

It depends what kind of ground your talking about if it's good arable ground I'd be the first one to say it would be a sin to plant this ground (being from a tillage farm and also a qualified Forester I'm on both sides of the fence).

I find this fascinating coming from a forester.
As foresters we have to deal with justifying conifers-the reality is that the quality ground suitable for growing top class broadleaves rarely comes up for planting. It's worth remembering that these excellent soils were before man hit the scene, under oak/elm forests.

fergus1001

SILVAMAN wrote:

I find this fascinating coming from a forester. As foresters we have to deal with justifying conifers-the reality is that the quality ground suitable for growing top class broadleaves rarely comes up for planting. It's worth remembering that these excellent soils were before man hit the scene, under oak/elm forests.

Oh if someone came to me wanting good ground planted fair enough I would jump at it, but I wouldn't go to a farmer who is clearly making money off the ground and tell him to plant everything and lock the gate because that's clearly bad advice for me to give as a professional

SILVAMAN

fergus1001 wrote: »

Oh if someone came to me wanting good ground planted fair enough I would jump at it, but I wouldn't go to a farmer who is clearly making money off the ground and tell him to plant everything and lock the gate because that's clearly bad advice for me to give as a professional

Of course.
But it looks like the OP has decided to plant.

fergus1001

SILVAMAN wrote:

Of course. But it looks like the OP has decided to plant.

Yes he has. Just to clarify my statement I was showing that I'm not 100% biased towards forestry

ganmo

bigtomw wrote: »

Hi lads, I'm just looking to see if anyone has been in my situation and a bit of advice, I'm coming to the realisation that I am never really going to farm the home place, due to the amount of neglect over the years and amount of money I would have to sink into it, it was leased out for the past 18 years and isn't in great shape, I am now trying to think with my head rather than my heart, I am 26 and have 2 young children to bring up, I have aprox 100 acres I was thinking of planting the majority of it and just keeping back 8 acres for myself, like I said I am 26 so would probably see the benefit from the clear fall, has anyone here planted their whole home place before and what did your family make of it,

SILVAMAN wrote: »

Of course.
But it looks like the OP has decided to plant.

thinking isn't deciding

fergus1001 wrote: »

Forestry is tax free and you will make as much per acre for the first 15 years of forestry and then bigger rewards from years 15 onwards than renting out the land (plus it's less risky)

just one thing that is a sore point for one of my neighbours, forestry is no longer tax free...liable for USC

fergus1001

ganmo wrote:

just one thing that is a sore point for one of my neighbours, forestry is no longer tax free...liable for USC

Usc and prsi on the grant but income from the raw material is exempt to a limit of 80,000 and 160,000 where there are joint owners as far as I know

ganmo

Apart from the ‘High Earners income restriction, forestry income has already been subject to
the introduction of the Pay Related Social Insurance charge and the 2009 Income Levy. With
the replacement of the Levy by the Universal Social Charge (USC) in 2011, a typical forest
owner will today pay PRSI at 4% and USC at 7% on any forest income.

http://www.itga.ie/docs/ITGATaxSubmission2012.pdf

thats the extent of my knowledge

jackboy

fergus1001 wrote: »

Usc and prsi on the grant but income from the raw material is exempt to a limit of 80,000 and 160,000 where there are joint owners as far as I know

I contacted revenue directly about this. They told me the grant is not subject to USC, I even have this in writing. Maybe someone in revenue made a mistake.

fepper

jackboy wrote: »

I contacted revenue directly about this. They told me the grant is not subject to USC, I even have this in writing. Maybe someone in revenue made a mistake.

yearly premium is liable

ganmo

jackboy wrote: »

I contacted revenue directly about this. They told me the grant is not subject to USC, I even have this in writing. Maybe someone in revenue made a mistake.

keep that piece of paper very secure

50HX

do a pricing as to what would it cost to turn it or 50% of it in arable land - you offset it against a long term lease - tax free

all depends on the quality of your land and your location - are dairy boys anywhere near you

as you say = you are 26 - you might have a different outlook in 5 years time - i was the same at 26 and said no chance of farming and now back in it full time and glad of teh option to be able to

you's need to do your research on the forestry - premium is now down to 15 years and the forestry companies are getting more choosey on the land
read the small print...... you/son(s) have to foot the bill of replanting

whatever you choose best of luck with it