Gas connection

jimbobwalton

Just checked and saw that the hose from gas bottle should have been replaced in 2006. So better do it I thought. Things is the camper ~(2002 reg) was imported from france. Previous own cut the end off and put a standard calor connection on top. Worked fine no issues. The hose I think is a pigtail. Some pics attached here. Can these be got here?

Aidan_M_M

jimbobwalton wrote: »

Just checked and saw that the hose from gas bottle should have been replaced in 2006. So better do it I thought. Things is the camper ~(2002 reg) was imported from france. Previous own cut the end off and put a standard calor connection on top. Worked fine no issues. The hose I think is a pigtail. Some pics attached here. Can these be got here?

Bloody typical of someone who didn't know what they were doing. You potentially have had all appliances running inefficient due to low pressure, as the gas had to pass through 2 30mbar regulators. Which can cause carbon monoxide to be excessive. We stock both the hose and bottle connections you need.

*Kol*

Aidan_M_M wrote: »

Bloody typical of someone who didn't know what they were doing. You potentially have had all appliances running inefficient due to low pressure, as the gas had to pass through 2 30mbar regulators. Which can cause carbon monoxide to be excessive. We stock both the hose and bottle connections you need.

In that case can the regulator on the wall be done away with?

Aidan_M_M

*Kol* wrote: »

In that case can the regulator on the wall be done away with?

God no. Do away with the one on the bottle. That one is designed for domestic use, the wall one for motorhomes and caravans. And as a byproduct, you can easily switch between screw on and Clip on gas cylinders, propane and butane.

*Kol*

Aidan_M_M wrote: »

God no. Do away with the one on the bottle. That one is designed for domestic use, the wall one for motorhomes and caravans. And as a byproduct, you can easily switch between screw on and Clip on gas cylinders, propane and butane.

Thanks. With the wall mounted regulator what type of a connector do you need to go on top of a calor butane bottle (the yellow 11kg one)

moodrater

*Kol* wrote: »

Thanks. With the wall mounted regulator what type of a connector do you need to go on top of a calor butane bottle (the yellow 11kg one)

http://www.gasproducts.ie/acatalog/Gaslow_Jumbo_Adaptor.html

niloc1951

*Kol* wrote: »

Thanks. With the wall mounted regulator what type of a connector do you need to go on top of a calor butane bottle (the yellow 11kg one)

You shouldn't use Butane in a motor caravan, the equipment is designed for Propane. Secondly Butane stops gassing at 0°C, which means on a cold morning the heating, fridge and cooker will not work, whereas Propane continues to gas down to -42°C.

You need to replace the existing pig tail with a Propane/Butane Gas Pigtail Butane Nut x W20 and use Propane bottles with the screw on side connection and as Aidan_M_M says discard the Jumbo bottle top regulator.

Aidan_M_M

niloc1951 wrote: »

You shouldn't use Butane in a motor caravan, the equipment is designed for Propane. Secondly Butane stops gassing at 0°C, which means on a cold morning the heating, fridge and cooker will not work, whereas Propane continues to gas down to -42°C.

You need to replace the existing pig tail with a Propane/Butane Gas Pigtail Butane Nut x W20 and use Propane bottles with the screw on side connection and as Aidan_M_M says discard the Jumbo bottle top regulator.

actually modern appliances ARE designed to run on BOTH propane and butane, but as you say, propane is superior in every way.

niloc1951

Aidan_M_M wrote: »

actually modern appliances ARE designed to run on BOTH propane and butane, but as you say, propane is superior in every way.

As you say, however motor caravans (unlike trailer caravans) are designed for all seasons use and as such have as a rule been fitted with gas equipment and regulators which are Propane compatible.
I know modern appliances will also work off Butane but unless a person is 100% sure their equipment and regulator and designed for use with both gasses is it not preferable to recommend the use of Propane, apart from the better performance delivered in cold weather.

Aidan_M_M

niloc1951 wrote: »

As you say, however motor caravans (unlike trailer caravans) are designed for all seasons use and as such have as a rule been fitted with gas equipment and regulators which are Propane compatible.
I know modern appliances will also work off Butane but unless a person is 100% sure their equipment and regulator and designed for use with both gasses is it not preferable to recommend the use of Propane, apart from the better performance delivered in cold weather.

Oh for sure, In the words of my ex Calor engineer , Charles who trained me for my Rgi, "butane is really only for SuperSet heaters in flats!"

*Kol*

I have two butane bottles. Would a gas stockist take them in exchange for a propane bottle? How much is a bottle of propane if you have an empty one to hand in?

*Kol*

Aidan_M_M wrote: »

Oh for sure, In the words of my ex Calor engineer , Charles who trained me for my Rgi, "butane is really only for SuperSet heaters in flats!"

If the Superser runs out its handy to be able to get a spare from the van!!

moodrater

Butane isn't really a problem if you have an inboard locker like a lot of campers especially van based ones do. I'd consider it safer in that scenario too because the cylinder pressure is much lower than propane. Also it not a problem for most motorhome owners either because their van are parked up 351 days of the year and they won't go out if theres rain forecast :pac:

Propane is banned in residential setting because the cylinder pressure is far higher than butane the relief valve opens at a very low temperature compared to butane something like 65C. When you live in box made of chipboard / vorhinger board and plastic I'd consider that a disadvantage.

moodrater

*Kol* wrote: »

I have two butane bottles. Would a gas stockist take them in exchange for a propane bottle? How much is a bottle of propane if you have an empty one to hand in?

Cylinder charge for propane is about double, they won't/shouldn't exchange them but obviously at the petrol station staff may not have a clue.
http://www.flogas.ie/residential/bottled-gas/cylinder-service-charges/

niloc1951

moodrater wrote: »

Cylinder charge for propane is about double, they won't/shouldn't exchange them but obviously at the petrol station staff may not have a clue.
http://www.flogas.ie/residential/bottled-gas/cylinder-service-charges/

While in France last month friends we were travelling with emptied one of their two bottles. At a Total service station we got a bottle of Totalgaz propane without the need to pay any deposit on the bottle, but a contract form had to be filled out for the bottle.
It was a simple swap as the pigtail was a 28.8LH pigtail for his side screw on Irish bottles (same as is commonly used in France).
The empty Irish bottle was stowed away safely and brought home.

I know of many people (including myself) who have got Propane first day by handing in Butane bottles and no charge was applied. Perhaps both bottles cost the same to the supplier and it's just the valve gear reacts differently, Both weigh the same empty so would seem to be made from the same grade/thickness of steel.
Perhaps the difference in the deposit here is just another Irish rip-off.

In the UK both Propane and Butane are exchangeable without charge, see Group D HERE

Aenaes

Gas cylinders are now exchangeable between butane and propane. There's two groups, anything below 11.34 kg and anything above 11.34kg.

So a 5 kg butane empty can be exchanged when buying 11 kg butane, a 34kg propane bottle can be used when buying a 47 kg propane bottle and 11kg propane empty can be exchanged for a 11kg butane.

Cylinder service charges should be €30 for any bottle up to 11.34kg and €60 above that.

That's for Calor gas at least, not sure about Flogas.

moodrater

Aenaes wrote: »

Gas cylinders are now exchangeable between butane and propane. There's two groups, anything below 11.34 kg and anything above 11.34kg.

So a 5 kg butane empty can be exchanged when buying 11 kg butane, a 34kg propane bottle can be used when buying a 47 kg propane bottle and 11kg propane empty can be exchanged for a 11kg butane.

Cylinder service charges should be €30 for any bottle up to 11.34kg and €60 above that.

That's for Calor gas at least, not sure about Flogas.

I bought an extra 11kg calor bottle about 2 months ago and the cylinder charge was €10 the propane was around €30 and both the local stockist and calor agent refused to accept a butane in exchange for propane. The calor agent also wanted €35 for a calor lite cylinder when I trued to exchange a 6kg one.

jimbobwalton

Thanks for all the feedback

Just thought I would update on whats happening. I did change the pigtail and replaced the regulator on the bottle for a non regulator connection as per advice. Result no gas flow into camper. I then got a registered gas installer out to have a look.... turns out the regulator on the motorhome was a "Low Pressure second stage regulator" with safety release valve. It is a Type 758...whatever that means. I went and looked it up and it says " The Type 758B2 is a second-stage low pressure regulator suitable to be installed in double stage pressure regulated domestic installation. This regulator cannot be used as single stage regulator, but always has to be installed after a 1st stage regulator"

So it needed the other regulator too

Aidan_M_M

I don't think you're right there. The bottle top reg you have shouldn't be paired with anything. It's not a first or second stage reg. And the wall mounted one, is that 1.500 gph or 1500? Cos if it's a 1.5 gph, 30mb, that's all your system needs. If it's not working right, it's fecked, and needS replacing. Motorhomes don't use/need 1st and 2nd stage regs, (unless fitted with a refillable lpg tank) they only require a single unit that reduces bottle pressure, be it propane or butane, to the industry standard of 30 mbar. 2 stage systems usually only start with the larger domestic bottles that are 18 or 21 kg iirc.
your man might be an RGII, but he may not be familiar with motorhomes. Whereas my RGI certification is solely for leisure accommodation vehicles.

moodrater

Its 1500 grams per hour. If it is a second stage regulator it was still all wrong / dangerous because a second stage regulator needs at least half a bar of pressure so the bottle regulator would need to be high pressure which I'm pretty sure its not.

jimbobwalton

Its an enigma to be honest. It says 1500g per hour on it. Here is what he did...changed the pigtail and connected it to a jumbo click on adaptor. He checked the pressure at output of the 758..all seemed ok he got 30mbar pressure.
But when all connected up no gas inside at appliances. when we put old hose on and the regulated connector...gas inside at appliances. I attach pic of the regulator and a pdf on it I found. I really appreciate all the help. Aidan If I were closer to you I would be there in a flash but am based in west cork...I thought I was doing the right thing getting a qualified gas installer in.. rather than tackle it on my own.
I did some digging and found the original top that was on the motorhome when it was imported from france....pic attached below. Maybe that will help solve the issue

Nekarsulm

Probably makes no difference, but that Gautzegh-gimez is a Dutch make. According to Google. Not French. Perhaps your MH was Dutch originally?

jimbobwalton

It may well have been...but first registration was in france...in the process of sorting it out now thanks to all for help

*Kol*

A question on regulators. Why are a lot of propane regulators 37mb instead of 30mb? What effect would that have on the operation of appliances?

Aidan_M_M

*Kol* wrote: »

A question on regulators. Why are a lot of propane regulators 37mb instead of 30mb? What effect would that have on the operation of appliances?

Realistically none, as they all have tolerance of +- 5-7 mb, in practice.