Advising Examiner

foodie86

Hi everyone just looking for some guidance.

I was out last week examining <snip> practicals. This is my <mod snip> yr doing them and I have always felt very positive after each experience.

However I feel the way I was treated by my adv examiner has really put a dampener on my experience this yr.
This lady I have never met before and all was going well until she told me I was marking too hard.

I listened to her advice and in my defence tried to explain how in previous yrs I have never had problems and have always corrected fairly. She responded by saying my standards were way too high and that I have never taught in a school with students from disadvantaged backgrounds. I have btw. She made me feel really bad for wanting student to put more effort in and to actually earn a high grade not just get it for writing keywords. I expect explanations - she didn't.

She ended by changing the grades I had done stating there would be too many appeals if she didn't.
She left me feeling really terrible, I feel her standard was completely ridiculous, she expected little or no effort to be put in by students. This is in complete contrast to adv examiners I have had previously who looked for work and effort.

I'm still reeling at the thought of it and she rang me to complain I hadn't forwarded her work when I had told her last fri she wouldn't have it until this fri.

I would like to forward my experience to the dept but I fear I may never get the opportunity to go out examining again.

Any advice really appreciated thanks.

cmickdaly

Before I start I would to say there are two sides to every story. She is nwe to the Adv examiner role? but I assume she is acting to instruction?

Personally I wouldn't be taking it too personally, after all the objective is to apply the marking scheme fairly and uniformly to all candidates and I suspect while her tone and manner is offhand she is only doing that.

I have corrected LCert for a number of years and have two different AE. The first one was pretty blunt and could be harsh but I respected his opnion and just gone on with it. He was never rude because that would be out of order. The second AE was a lot more relaxed and also got the job done in a different style.

As for informing the Dept of educ that is a hard call. I personally (if it was me) would talk to the AE in question after doing the correcting. Best to sort it out between two persons involved before running for help. It may be easily resolved that way. if you still arent happy feel free to make a official complaint but you must be aware you may have to stand over it.

evolving_doors

foodie86 wrote: »

Hi everyone just looking for some guidance.

I was out last week examining <snip> practicals. This is my <mod snip> yr doing them and I have always felt very positive after each experience.

However I feel the way I was treated by my adv examiner has really put a dampener on my experience this yr.
This lady I have never met before and all was going well until she told me I was marking too hard.

I listened to her advice and in my defence tried to explain how in previous yrs I have never had problems and have always corrected fairly. She responded by saying my standards were way too high and that I have never taught in a school with students from disadvantaged backgrounds. I have btw. She made me feel really bad for wanting student to put more effort in and to actually earn a high grade not just get it for writing keywords. I expect explanations - she didn't.

She ended by changing the grades I had done stating there would be too many appeals if she didn't.
She left me feeling really terrible, I feel her standard was completely ridiculous, she expected little or no effort to be put in by students. This is in complete contrast to adv examiners I have had previously who looked for work and effort.

I'm still reeling at the thought of it and she rang me to complain I hadn't forwarded her work when I had told her last fri she wouldn't have it until this fri.

I would like to forward my experience to the dept but I fear I may never get the opportunity to go out examining again.

Any advice really appreciated thanks.

Maybe keep in mind that 'her standard' should be based on the national standard. This AE might be getting instruction from her superior that the marking scheme has to be adjusted in a certain direction to keep in line with the distribution curve.

In a particular year if the amount of say A's was unusually high then they might have to have another look at the borderline marks and adjust accordingly to bring numbers within a normal distribution (as much as they can!). It's not so easy to do on a written paper where there's only so many areas of the marking scheme you can adjust etc. but for a practical I would think there's a bit more leeway.

Also it was stressed to us (as correctors) that the aim is to positively mark for the Junior cert. and this was mainly in subjective areas where you had to judge to what extent they fulfilled the requirements of the question yourself.
There were a few times I felt like going all guns blazing but in the end I just deferred to their wishes after making my concerns known, as the final say was theirs not mine.

That's my reading of it anyway.

BTW my own AE for written papers got a few deadlines that we had agreed on mixed up, so anytime we had a conversation I'd follow it up with an email containing what we'd discussed and any further queries I had. They probably have a lot on their plate too as they might be examining students and supervising other examiners at the same time.

rainbowtrout

foodie86 wrote: »

However I feel the way I was treated by my adv examiner has really put a dampener on my experience this yr.
This lady I have never met before and all was going well until she told me I was marking too hard.

Was she new to it? Or have other AEs been a bit too harsh? It's hard to know without seeing all of the evidence.

foodie86 wrote: »

I listened to her advice and in my defence tried to explain how in previous yrs I have never had problems and have always corrected fairly. She responded by saying my standards were way too high and that I have never taught in a school with students from disadvantaged backgrounds. I have btw. She made me feel really bad for wanting student to put more effort in and to actually earn a high grade not just get it for writing keywords. I expect explanations - she didn't.

I would agree that it's not fair commenting on your teaching experience when she knew nothing about it.

With regard to the marking scheme, are keywords acceptable? Was this agreed at your conference? I don't expect you to comment here, but what you might want as a high/acceptable standard maybe above what the SEC want. If students have met the requirements you have to give them the marks no matter how much more you would expect your own students to do to get them.

foodie86 wrote: »

She ended by changing the grades I had done stating there would be too many appeals if she didn't.
She left me feeling really terrible, I feel her standard was completely ridiculous, she expected little or no effort to be put in by students. This is in complete contrast to adv examiners I have had previously who looked for work and effort.

You have to follow protocols. If your AE changed the marks then those marks stand. You will presumably have to write a report on your week. I would imagine that is one of the comment that would go into that section of the report. "I awarded marks, marks upgraded by AE." At the end of the day, she is the one who has to stand over those marks.

foodie86 wrote: »

I'm still reeling at the thought of it and she rang me to complain I hadn't forwarded her work when I had told her last fri she wouldn't have it until this fri.

I would like to forward my experience to the dept but I fear I may never get the opportunity to go out examining again.

Any advice really appreciated thanks.

Did you agree a date with her? Had she requested work before this Friday? Was it a case of her saying 'I'd like the paperwork by Tuesday' and you saying 'I won't be sending it until Friday' when she set the deadline? Did she agree to the Friday date?


Dept have nothing to do with the exams, it's the SECs baby.

foodie86

I most certainly agree that she is only following orders from her superior but whilst I was grading work and increasing grades who is to say that across the country other advising examiners are pushing the same grades.

I know they are not having spoken to other correctors and I really feel it's unfair of her to push her own values onto other correctors. This is my personal feeling I obv can't prove this.

I also know I'm just angry and frustrated at the minute at the way I was treated and just need to vent.

I def don't feel the need to "follow up with an e-mail" as suggest by OP, thanks but I have enough to do and I think she understood this by my tone earlier.

Overall I learned nothing from examining this year and I would certainly think twice about applying next year.

I do still think clearer guidelines are needed so that teachers know what is expected of them especially this who have never had the opportunity to examine practical work. I think I'll submit this to dept rather than airing my grievances about a certain adv examiner.

Thanks for input everyone.

spurious

When you are writing your report, you might allude (very carefully) to some issues you had. Choose your words carefully though.

rainbowtrout

foodie86 wrote: »

I most certainly agree that she is only following orders from her superior but whilst I was grading work and increasing grades who is to say that across the country other advising examiners are pushing the same grades.

I know they are not having spoken to other correctors and I really feel it's unfair of her to push her own values onto other correctors. This is my personal feeling I obv can't prove this.

I also know I'm just angry and frustrated at the minute at the way I was treated and just need to vent.

I def don't feel the need to "follow up with an e-mail" as suggest by OP, thanks but I have enough to do and I think she understood this by my tone earlier.

Overall I learned nothing from examining this year and I would certainly think twice about applying next year.

I do still think clearer guidelines are needed so that teachers know what is expected of them especially this who have never had the opportunity to examine practical work. I think I'll submit this to dept rather than airing my grievances about a certain adv examiner.

Thanks for input everyone.

You have no idea what instructions she has been given or what information is being passed on a daily basis between advising examiners and their superiors. Even from talking to other teachers you won't know that, they can only tell you what happened in the schools they examined in.

If a teacher you spoke to said to you 'No the AE didn't want to change my grades' maybe that was because the standard was really high in that school and the grades were already good enough. You can't compare without being there.

Again it's the SEC that run this. Dept have nothing to do with it. If you have an issue with the AE, why don't you email your Chief AE instead? Having a rant about someone here solves nothing, particularly if there is an issue there.

foodie86

Again it's the SEC that run this. Dept have nothing to do with it. If you have an issue with the AE, why don't you email your Chief AE instead? Having a rant about someone here solves nothing, particularly if there is an issue there.[/quote]

Oh thanks for pointing out again its the SEC I should be contacting in fairness as I already stated I don't think it would be in my best interests to make a complaint do you really think any good would come from it? I'll be following spurious advice on that. Thanks!

Anyways at the heart of the issue is the fact that work I looked at from a teachers point of view that shouldn't have got the marks it got. I thought back on our conference and I looked at exemplars that were marked fairly, I still think these students were not marked accordingly and their teachers will continue to work to the same standard and do their students no favours as the grading system may change again.

I most certainly won't be dropping my expectations following my experience but it's interesting to see how other people view the situation and their take on it.

deiseindublin

What deadline was originally given at conference for your report? Chances are your AE will have their report late also if yours is posted a few days late.

foodie86

deiseindublin wrote: »

What deadline was originally given at conference for your report? Chances are your AE will have their report late also if yours is posted a few days late.

Thanks I know all of this, it wasn't for report btw.

yogibaby

Hi Foodie

I can empathise with you here. I have had a lot of experience in this area. The feedback from many teachers in my field is that many of the AE's like to pull rank and due to their own stress can push teachers around. I have met many teaches who complain of the exact same issue you have. The national standard is not really a national standard but kept inline with previous results as to avoid re checks and keep to the expected annual figures. I'm not going to get into it all, I'd be here all night. But believe me just do as they say or your life could get very hard. You won't win against them. Sure raise your concerns, but they'll be binned. It's just the way it is. This is not a Dept. matter. Go to chief advisor Of SEC and have your points in order. Wouldn't say they pay much attention to your actual report, not unless it's positive. Waaaaay underpaid and over worked.

cmickdaly

Again I can only refer to my own experience.if you have a issue with somebody go to that person after correcting and discuss it with them. It's as simple as chatting and discuss the issue directly. Sending what would be perceived as sniping comments directly to SEC may not be looked on favorably without discussing with it the person involved. You could also put it behind you and move on and forget about it.

hope it all works out for you and that you return next year to correcting

Millem

foodie86 wrote: »

Hi everyone just looking for some guidance.

I was out last week examining <snip> practicals. This is my <mod snip> yr doing them and I have always felt very positive after each experience.

However I feel the way I was treated by my adv examiner has really put a dampener on my experience this yr.
This lady I have never met before and all was going well until she told me I was marking too hard.

I listened to her advice and in my defence tried to explain how in previous yrs I have never had problems and have always corrected fairly. She responded by saying my standards were way too high and that I have never taught in a school with students from disadvantaged backgrounds. I have btw. She made me feel really bad for wanting student to put more effort in and to actually earn a high grade not just get it for writing keywords. I expect explanations - she didn't.

She ended by changing the grades I had done stating there would be too many appeals if she didn't.
She left me feeling really terrible, I feel her standard was completely ridiculous, she expected little or no effort to be put in by students. This is in complete contrast to adv examiners I have had previously who looked for work and effort.

I'm still reeling at the thought of it and she rang me to complain I hadn't forwarded her work when I had told her last fri she wouldn't have it until this fri.

I would like to forward my experience to the dept but I fear I may never get the opportunity to go out examining again.

Any advice really appreciated thanks.

Hi foodie, I am guessing we may teach the same subject I am not marking practicals this year but have done in the past. I thought you have to keep marking as you are then at the very end await for notification for moderation? If so adjust then? Try not to worry about it. I haven't been moderated but know people who are marking for 20 years and have recently been moderated! I think every advising examiner is different