Episode 5x02 -The House of Black and White - HAVE read the books [** Spoilers **]

Mr.Prodston

No thread for this yet is surprising but I guess most of the chatter is in the 1-4 episodes.

Perhaps I'll leave a gap so that somebody who accidentally clicks in here can turn back...

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I was away while all that excitement was going on so I'm going to try and watch it week to week so may as well try and get some chat about this episode going.

They really, really are separate entities now. The show and the book. I really enjoyed this episode though despite half of me fighting that urge to say "that didn't happen" etc :pac:

I spent most of the episode trying for the life of me to figure who the "advisor" was before he got his head chopped off. Good to see Barristan hand out a few home truths too and no Greyworm/Missandei secret glances is always welcome.

Jaqen replacing/being the kindly man for the show was no surprise really. If there isn't movement with him and Sam/Aemon/Gilly up north soon then I guess we won't be seeing Oldtown but there's still time. Great to have Arya back anyway

Seemed kind of odd having Jon's Stark decsion brushed under the table almost straight away before leaping into the election. He was Lord Commander for a good while before that came along in the books I think? (If I learned anything it's that a reread of 4 and 5 are badly needed for me :pac:)

What I'm most uncomfortable about is having Brienne meet both Arya and Sansa and have both turn her down when she doesn't come within a sniff in reality. Also I presume Sansa is "Alayne" in public? Calling her Sansa in a pub is surely not the wisest of moves. I also didn't exactly see the need to go all out attack on Littlefingers forces and needlessly provoking and killing half his men. Not exactly Brienne like behaviour.

The scene with Bronn taking in his new life with Lollys was brilliant :pac: Although I assume and will be seriously p!ssed off if they go ahead and (I'm only guessing here based off some other musing on a visit to the westeros forum a few months ago and reading between the lines myself)

kill him off in Dorne instead of Aerys

Mickeroo

Yeah I'd say Bronn will be a goner at some stage, I really am looking forward to him and Jamie in Dorne though.

If Sansa ends up in Winterfell like a lot of people reckon is going to happen it would appear Brienne will be involved there somehow, maybe she'll help Reek and be the new ghost of Winterfell?

Tom.D.BJJ

I let out a bit of a cheer when Stannis read the note from Lyanna Mormont.

One small disappointment for me was how quickly the election of the new LC was done, and also Jons decision about legitimising his bastardom..

The tv show appears to be taken very large strides away from the book storyline.

Mr.Prodston

Mickeroo wrote: »

Yeah I'd say Bronn will be a goner at some stage, I really am looking forward to him and Jamie in Dorne though.

If Sansa ends up in Winterfell like a lot of people reckon is going to happen it would appear Brienne will be involved there somehow, maybe she'll help Reek and be the new ghost of Winterfell?

Yeah I guess Bronn could quite easily have slipped away to live the fine life but instead he's coming back for one last job....

Brienne and Pod certainly seem to be following them anyway. That's a good shout about being the Ghost alright. The only thing I ever wanted for this season was for Brian Blessed to play Wyman Manderly and I'm not sure I'll ever get over the entire exclusion of the character

Fair warning I'll probably be mentioning this every week unless I get a pleasant, unexpected surprise down the line :pac:

Mickeroo

Davos would want to be heading off canvassing soon if he's going to meet Manderlay, though the note from Bear Island could very well be leading up to him setting out.

Mormegil

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

Seemed kind of odd having Jon's Stark decsion brushed under the table almost straight away before leaping into the election. He was Lord Commander for a good while before that came along in the books I think? (If I learned anything it's that a reread of 4 and 5 are badly needed for me :pac:)

[/SPOILER]

No, Stannis offered to make him Jon Stark before he got voted in as LC in the books as well.

In the books it's the return of Ghost that promps Jon not to accept Stannis' offer as he realises that Winterfell and the North would come under the sway of Mel and her Red God if he did so.

One fairly major change in the show from the books is that Jon knows that Bran (and proberly Rickon) are still alive as Sam told him which he didn't in the books.

So there is no way show Jon would have taken up the offer to be Lord of Winterfell as the rightful Lord Bran is still alive.

Greyjoy

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

What I'm most uncomfortable about is having Brienne meet both Arya and Sansa and have both turn her down when she doesn't come within a sniff in reality. Also I presume Sansa is "Alayne" in public? Calling her Sansa in a pub is surely not the wisest of moves. I also didn't exactly see the need to go all out attack on Littlefingers forces and needlessly provoking and killing half his men. Not exactly Brienne like behaviour.

I actually think her storyline in the tv show is an improvement over the books. As readers we already know where the Stark children are but Brienne doesn't. So there's no tension or mystery to Brienne's story in the books, it's just pointless wandering around Westeros so that GRRM can repeat over & over again how awful life is for the smallfolk during the wars. Brienne is one of my favourite characters but I found her chapters really frustrating in 'Feast'.

I do agree that Brienne addressing Sansa aloud by her actual name in public was really foolish. Even if she had just spoken to her in a hushed, whispered tone rather than blurting it out for others to overhear.

To be fair to Brienne she doesn't instigate the confrontation with Littlefinger's guards. She attempts to leave and they try to stop her, it's not like she charged across the inn and laid into the soldiers. When her & Podrick flee the inn the guards are chasing them not to capture but to kill (look at how the guard reacts when he sees Podrick is not armed).

Mr.Prodston

Greyjoy wrote: »

I actually think her storyline in the tv show is an improvement over the books. As readers we already know where the Stark children are but Brienne doesn't. So there's no tension or mystery to Brienne's story in the books, it's just pointless wandering around Westeros so that GRRM can repeat over & over again how awful life is for the smallfolk during the wars. Brienne is one of my favourite characters but I found her chapters really frustrating in 'Feast'.

I do agree that Brienne addressing Sansa aloud by her actual name in public was really foolish. Even if she had just spoken to her in a hushed, whispered tone rather than blurting it out for others to overhear.

To be fair to Brienne she doesn't instigate the confrontation with Littlefinger's guards. She attempts to leave and they try to stop her, it's not like she charged across the inn and laid into the soldiers. When her & Podrick flee the inn the guards are chasing them not to capture but to kill (look at how the guard reacts when he sees Podrick is not armed).

I'm probably in the minority but I actually really enjoyed Brienne's chapters in Feast, granted they certainly didn't go anywhere fast but neither did the rest of AFFC :pac: I accept it makes more sense for the show though alright.

I must watch the episode again later but what I picked up was that she just burst past the guards, cut some of the horses loose and provoked them more firstly for them to give chase but I guess it's a much of a muchness. Littlefinger probably wouldn't want a close associate of Jaime Lannister knowing Sansa's whereabouts so makes sense they'd actually stop her.

Turtyturd

While they aren't splitting the books into separate seasons I'd like to see them spend each episode focusing on certain groups of characters (one week the north, one week the south/essos). Normally that would annoy me but the whistle stop tour through each character is frustrating.

Really enjoyed the castleblack stuff last night. Sam's speech was great and Jon's appointment, although I did think they were dragging it out when the votes were tied, would have been nice to have Stannis tell them to vote a Lord Commander or he would appoint one.

Drogon looks impressive.

Was dreading that Tyrion's comment about being the only dwarf would lead to Penny's introduction.

Not buying Jaime's leather jacket either, half expected him to be sitting on motorbike carrying a helmet when Bronn Bronn seen him.

Mickeroo

Focusing on certain characters would be good yeah, as it is I find the show doesn't flow particularly well when I'm only watching one episode at a time.

The show and the books are now completely separate entities and if the remaining episodes in the television series are at the least the quality of last night's mere 2nd episode 'story builder', then that's alright with me. I will be judging the show on its own merits, or at least trying to, rather than focusing on the differences from the books.

The pace seems to be picking up, I was surprised to see Jaime go from "I will go to Dorne...who said I'm going alone?" to his recruitment of Bronn at Castle Stokeworth within two scenes. Nice to see Bronn back and the interactions and chemistry with Lollys Stokeworth were amusing.

When Cersei told Jaime that Mycella would be at the Water Gardens in Dorne because Oberyn told her, I loved that it drew back to that scene early last season where Oberyn and Cersei walked by the docks in King's Landing, and Oberyn spoke about his home, hopes, ideals and the situation with Mycella. Oberyn did indeed tell Cersei where Mycella was living in a beautifully shot and written scene. "Because Oberyn told me" from last night's episode wasn't just a convenient line of dialogue to explain how they will locate their daughter in this large, unknown country, but backed-up by a great scene from earlier in the show.

I liked our first glance at Dorne. When I heard Alexander Siddig was cast as Doran months ago, I got over the fact then that Doran wasn't going to look like the depiction of him in the books. Other than that, I like Siddig and the scene between Doran and Ellaria was effective in setting up the story and tension that we will see in Dorne this season. Nice that Doran's declaration of "We don't mutilate children" draws back to similar words that Oberyn told Cersei in that same scene from last season that I mentioned in the above paragraph. Also, Areo Hotah was a good fit for me, looking forward to seeing more of this character.

Again with the pacing, I'm surprised that Jon is now the Lord Commander by the end of episode two. Some people feel it was rushed, but I think at this stage so much time has been invested in the characters that it is needless to spend a few episodes drawing it out. We know by now the relationship between Thorne and Jon. In the scene, Sam gave a realistic speech that spoke sense about the value of Jon, acts of bravery and leadership we've seen over the last four seasons. Sam also showed Janos for what he was after Janos threw down his endorsement of Thorne from a high horse. I liked that him covering in the cupboard with Gilly and the baby during the Night's Watch's most desperate hour finally came to light.

The climactic scene in Merreen was almost a spectacle, I still have to remind myself that I'm watching a TV show and not a $200m movie. I thought the producers did a great job of clearly showing the difference in the masters and the common people, and their placement in the scene. It was quite suspenseful despite knowing that there was no hope of Dany granting a pardon. Story-wise, I'm delighted Dany got a reality check. I haven't been the biggest fan of Dany's time in Merreen so far, but really enjoyed all of this week's scenes and think it finally did advance the story there. Drogon was impressive looking, and big, surely it won't be long before we see Dany take to the skies.

I should wrap this up soon because it's getting excessive as it is, and I haven't even got to mention Arya/Jacquen, Brienne/Pod, Tyrion/Varys, Stannis, Cersei's Ruling Counsel/Kevan. Safe to say though that I enjoyed the whole episode and can't wait for the next. I decided not to watch the four leaked episodes because the thoughts of waiting five weeks for episode five was a deal-breaker. Week to week is the way I prefer to experience the show. Myself and my O.H. did try the 'record them all and then binge watch' approach with season three, but by the time we were done it had all passed by too quickly and I forgot many of the minor details in the process, have since had to re-watch. Kind of a similar experience I had with books four and five!

The show-runners have said in the build-up to season five that by now we are beyond the halfway point of the story and they are beginning to move the pieces into place for the endgame. In the same interview, they said that they see the show ideally running 70 hours in total, 75 at a stretch. 100 hours is simply not possible. So from their words, it's safe to assume that by June 2017 we will know the complete outcome of this adaptation of ASOIAF.

This excites me and makes me nervous at the same time. I can't wait to see a conclusion the the ASOIAF story, but am concerned at how it will play out after years of speculation. Will the show go in a completely different direction to Martin's intentions for the books? Do I actually want to learn the fates of certain characters from the TV show before the books, or do I want the show to go completely in its own direction and not spoil the books? I haven't a clue, but the TV show has been entertaining me greatly for four years now and it's unlikely that I'll be tuning out.

Post is TL:DR probably cause it's my first of the season, next one will be shorter, promise

FunLover18

I'm just glad Sansa's voice has broken at last. I was beginning to think it would never happen.

ibarelycare

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

I spent most of the episode trying for the life of me to figure who the "advisor" was before he got his head chopped off.

I spent most of the episode trying to figure out who he was...and still don't know Memory refresher anyone?

Duckworth_Luas

ibarelycare wrote: »

I spent most of the episode trying to figure out who he was...and still don't know Memory refresher anyone?

Introduced in this scene in Season 4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKrARLg10eA

ibarelycare

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

Introduced in this scene in Season 4

Thanks...was he in the books??

Duckworth_Luas

ibarelycare wrote: »

Thanks...was he in the books??

No idea, I have barely any recollection of Daenerys' POV chapters from A Dance with Dragons.

It was all Lorax zu Pickaxe this, Hizdar zo Huxtable that.

ibarelycare

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

No idea, I have barely any recollection of Daenerys' POV chapters from A Dance with Dragons.

It was all Lorax zu Pickaxe this, Hizdar zo Huxtable that.

Yeah when reading these threads I realise there's so much from the books that I don't remember! I was considering starting to re-read them soon but I think I'll just leave it for now and just try and enjoy the show on its own.

Mormegil

ibarelycare wrote: »

Thanks...was he in the books??

The name Mossador is used in the books but it's a different character.

In the Books Mossador is one of the Unsullied (and brother to Missandei) he's killed by the Sons of the Harpy.



Game of Thrones Wiki is a good place to check show facts vs Book facts.

mewso

Some of the changes are affecting things now gradually that start to make the logic fall apart here and there. Brienne being in Kings Landing long before Sansa leaves and never making her grand declaration until happening upon her by complete accident in some inn in the middle of nowhere many moon later. Jon and Sam talking about being offered Lord of Winterfell without once saying that obviously there is at least one legitimate heir (Bran) they both know of still alive. Generally I'm glad they are moving so far away from the books because I can hopefully read them with less spoilt by the show but it's obvious that despite the changes there will always be those great moments they want to have in the show that as time goes by may suffer because of the changes made before but I think they care less and less as it goes on. I mean the whole Brienne Sansa thing just doesn't stand up but if enough episodes have passed who will notice the inconsistency?

bopper

mewso wrote: »

Some of the changes are affecting things now gradually that start to make the logic fall apart here and there. Brienne being in Kings Landing long before Sansa leaves and never making her grand declaration until happening upon her by complete accident in some inn in the middle of nowhere many moon later. Jon and Sam talking about being offered Lord of Winterfell without once saying that obviously there is at least one legitimate heir (Bran) they both know of still alive. Generally I'm glad they are moving so far away from the books because I can hopefully read them with less spoilt by the show but it's obvious that despite the changes there will always be those great moments they want to have in the show that as time goes by may suffer because of the changes made before but I think they care less and less as it goes on. I mean the whole Brienne Sansa thing just doesn't stand up but if enough episodes have passed who will notice the inconsistency?

Well Brienne didn't really have any need to make a grand declaration to Sansa when they were both in King's Landing. Her mission to return Sansa to Cat in exchange for Jaime was pretty much scuppered with Cat's death, and Sansa being married off to Tyrion. She's only pursuing Sansa now at Jaime's request.

NBTD

mewso wrote: »

Some of the changes are affecting things now gradually that start to make the logic fall apart here and there. Brienne being in Kings Landing long before Sansa leaves and never making her grand declaration until happening upon her by complete accident in some inn in the middle of nowhere many moon later. Jon and Sam talking about being offered Lord of Winterfell without once saying that obviously there is at least one legitimate heir (Bran) they both know of still alive. Generally I'm glad they are moving so far away from the books because I can hopefully read them with less spoilt by the show but it's obvious that despite the changes there will always be those great moments they want to have in the show that as time goes by may suffer because of the changes made before but I think they care less and less as it goes on. I mean the whole Brienne Sansa thing just doesn't stand up but if enough episodes have passed who will notice the inconsistency?

I would have thought, as the king can legitimise bastards, then Jon would overtake Bran as the heir of Winterfell by virtue of being older

Jofspring

NBTD wrote: »

I would have thought, as the king can legitimise bastards, then Jon would overtake Bran as the heir of Winterfell by virtue of being older

Technically ya but Jon seems to be a honourable guy so I reckon he wouldn't accept taking it from Bran or Rickon who he himself would probably still see as having more right than him.

mewso

NBTD wrote: »

I would have thought, as the king can legitimise bastards, then Jon would overtake Bran as the heir of Winterfell by virtue of being older

We can explain anything. My main point is that it makes little sense that Bran wouldn't get a mention between Sam and Jon when discussing the inheritance regardless of explanations. Things start to jar just that little bit when the changes they have made don't quite fit with things later on. I'm just expecting this to be an issue more as we go on. Same with Brienne and Sansa. It just seems a tad odd that she wouldn't even speak to her at any point. Hey I met your Ma and she asked me to protect you and that but thankfully you are safe.

Mr.Prodston

mewso wrote: »

We can explain anything. My main point is that it makes little sense that Bran wouldn't get a mention between Sam and Jon when discussing the inheritance regardless of explanations. Things start to jar just that little bit when the changes they have made don't quite fit with things later on. I'm just expecting this to be an issue more as we go on. Same with Brienne and Sansa. It just seems a tad odd that she wouldn't even speak to her at any point. Hey I met your Ma and she asked me to protect you and that but thankfully you are safe.

On that what stuck out at the end of last season was when The Hound and Arya showed up at the gate of the Eeyrie.

The Hound surely one of Westeros' most wanted men and Arya. Daughter of Ned Stark, who was one of the most important people in the known world, and especially in the Northern half of Westeros ( not to mention niece to the extremely recently deceased Lysa Arryn who lived there) would be turned away without the guards even asking Littlefinger or somebody in authority if they may be interested in seeing them.

I watched that episode a couple of weeks ago and it triggered all that anger again :pac:

kellso81

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

On that what stuck out at the end of last season was when The Hound and Arya showed up at the gate of the Eeyrie.

The Hound surely one of Westeros' most wanted men and Arya. Daughter of Ned Stark, who was one of the most important people in the known world, and especially in the Northern half of Westeros ( not to mention niece to the extremely recently deceased Lysa Arryn who lived there) would be turned away without the guards even asking Littlefinger or somebody in authority if they may be interested in seeing them.

I watched that episode a couple of weeks ago and it triggered all that anger again :pac:

Was worth it just for Arya's laugh

Mr.Prodston

kellso81 wrote: »

Was worth it just for Arya's laugh

That was fantastic to be fair

csallmighty

mewso wrote: »

We can explain anything. My main point is that it makes little sense that Bran wouldn't get a mention between Sam and Jon when discussing the inheritance regardless of explanations. Things start to jar just that little bit when the changes they have made don't quite fit with things later on. I'm just expecting this to be an issue more as we go on. Same with Brienne and Sansa. It just seems a tad odd that she wouldn't even speak to her at any point. Hey I met your Ma and she asked me to protect you and that but thankfully you are safe.

Or "Hey I met your sister a few days/weeks ago. You know the girl everyone thought was dead. Well she was traveling along with the hound, Im pretty sure I killed him now she's wondering around here on her own but you probably don't want to talk about it"

Liam O

NBTD wrote: »

I would have thought, as the king can legitimise bastards, then Jon would overtake Bran as the heir of Winterfell by virtue of being older

No, legitimate bastards are at the end of the line.

podgemonster

Liam O wrote: »

No, legitimate bastards are at the end of the line.

It is known