worried sick-will he get a charge?

Blonde27

HI all

Long story straight, the little neighbourhood brats have been vandalising our house, between throwing eggs, flour bombs, snow balls, muck balls etc etc for months..
Saturday night, more eggs were thrown at the house. We rang the guards, they arrived and advised nothing they can do. My husband went out on his bike and found them all laughing. He asked them who done the egg throwing and the next thing, torrents of abuse was been screamed from them. He grabbed one of them by his jacket and asked him was it him. Another teenager who was not involved with the egg throwing pulled the youngster off my husband.
What happened next was the youngsters running off and my husband chasing them on the bike. They got to a house down from my house and I could see my husband shouting at them so I drove down. The abuse they were roaring was absolutely shocking from mentioning personal things about my family to calling me a fat C*nt. They started saying at me that my husband hit one of them (the teenager who was not involved with the egg throwing and is over 16).
Next thing guards arrive at my house stating that they are accusing him of assault.
My husband gives statement and they are two different stories. Ie, he did not hit the teenager and the teenager swears he did. Straight after all this happens, the teenager sends him a FB request, so you can see he is trying to rise him.
The guards have advised they will be back ina couple of weeks to him.
Whats your thoughts, will there be a charge, and what is the penalty?
from a worried sick wife.

MarkAnthony

Never speak to the guards without first speaking to a solicitor.

Grabbing someone easily rises to the standard of assault, merely raising a hand in 'anger' is enough given the right circumstances. Of course they're trying to get a rise out of him.

Get onto a solicitor today, this needs to be handled properly.

NUTLEY BOY

+1 previous post most emphatically.


Some brief additional observations.

No legal advice allowed here so this is a comment on general principle as if OP's post was a theoretical problem.

You do have a right to defend both your person (including other people) and your property. You are allowed to use reasonable force to that end. However, you may not use excessive force. What is reasonable or excessive turns on the specific facts of any case.


Mounting up and confronting the alleged offenders is most unlikely to come within the concept of self defence. The act in question would probably be best viewed as a new and separate matter which can be disconnected from the original actions of the youths. This actually leaves the way open for the allegations made against the mounted householder.

The criminal damage ended when the youths departed. I reckon that the act of pursuing the youths at such a disconnect in time between their conduct and the subsequent encounter probably takes the latter outside the realms of self defence.

Hopefully the matter will rest where it lies. If it does OP's husband will have learned a lesson without penalty (either physical or legal) and should be considered lucky.

Any further provocation by the youths should not be reacted to as they will wind the householder in to their mischief. If there is more aggravation ring the Gardai immediately and report every such incident.

Little CuChulainn

Talk to a solicitor about the concept of a citizens arrest.

Kristopherus

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Talk to a solicitor about the concept of a citizens arrest.

Does that concept actually exist in Ireland.

Little CuChulainn

Kristopherus wrote: »

Does that concept actually exist in Ireland.

Yes. Hypothetically, if a citizen saw someone damaging their house they are within their right to catch them and hand them over to the Gardaí and use reasonable force to do so.

MarkAnthony

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Yes. Hypothetically, if a citizen saw someone damaging their house they are within their right to catch them and hand them over to the Gardaí and use reasonable force to do so.

Woah there! Precisely why legal advice shouldn't be given here.

It's more nuanced than that.

Okay I stand corrected the powers of arrest are very broad in relation to Criminal Damage.

Intifada

Surely the guards aren't going to be overly accommodating of any potential charges the scumbags might press.

slimjimmc

MarkAnthony wrote: »

That's what I thought but take a look at my link. Section 12 sets out the power of arrest.

Thanks, saw that and then deleted my erroneous post but G'dammit you're too quick

MarkAnthony

Intifada wrote: »

Surely the guards aren't going to be overly accommodating of any potential charges the scumbags might press.

Unfortunately discretion in relation to the reports of an assault on a minor, I imagine, is quite limited.

Intifada

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Unfortunately discretion in relation to the reports of an assault on a minor, I imagine, is quite limited.

Not really. They could just tell the kids that what happened didn't amount to assault so not to bother.

MarkAnthony

Intifada wrote: »

Not really. They could just tell the kids that what happened didn't amount to assault so not to bother.

They could, and then face a parent who is probably well versed in the law, I make no comment as to from which side, making an official complaint to their superior or the ombudsman.

Terrlock

Question: How can someone in Ireland actually stop these individuals from harassing them at home?

If the guards can't do anything about it, is it lawful for them to behave in such a manner?

What is the best way to handle this type of thing?

MrWalsh

Over winter my husband intervened with a man who was manhandling a screaming minor down the road with the child screaming "help help i dont know this man".

There was some amount of verbal and the man claiming the child had been terrorising his home etc..

Long story short my husband insisted that the child be let go and when he was the child took off running (shouting insults back over his shoulder).

The man was very enraged. The Guards had been called by other neighbours by this point and when they arrived they were quite clear with the man that he absolutely cannot put his hand on someone elses child and that the childs mother could decide to press assault charges. The man maintained he was manhandling the child to "hold him for the Guards". The Guards told him he cannot do this.

This kid was about 12 years of age.

Personally I think the child in my story was at fault. But he started to lay on accusations as he was set free that the man was a paedophile and had tried to touch him etc.. If that man had gotten that child to his house it would have left him wide open to any accusation from the child.

I think the teenager in this thread will have a hard time proving any level of assault without a medical report to back it up.

UrbanFox

Generally, I think that OP's hubby has exposed himself to comeback on the facts.

Provocation could arise. I reckon that would be as likely to lack merit as the self defence argument above. You would have to show extraordinarily deep and persistent provocation to have any hope of arguing this. Any views or am I being pessimistic ?

I don't really like the idea of the so called citizens arrest. That idea puts members of the public in the position of thinking that they are like police officers. It is not fair or sensible to expect ordinary members of the public to know where the boundaries lie legally and that lack of knowledge may not provide an excuse if they go too far. It is just too easy to go too far in the white heat of confrontation and to leave a trail of regret ! Better to do just enough to repel the attacker and leave it there.

I sympathise with OP's hubby if this has been on going and he reached the limits of patience. However, the very best result that could arise here is for the Gardai to indicate that there will be no further action accompanied by a firm ear bashing. If that happens OP's hubby should consider himself a lucky man and learn an important lesson.

BTW if the Gardaí are going to take it further OP might consider cross complaints of harassment and criminal damage.

If Gardai intend to go further OP's hubby should most definitely NOT talk to them without legal advice.

Blonde27

Thanks for all the posts guys, we have gone to our Solicitor.

hullaballoo

UrbanFox wrote: »

Provocation could arise. I reckon that would be as likely to lack merit as the self defence argument above. You would have to show extraordinarily deep and persistent provocation to have any hope of arguing this. Any views or am I being pessimistic ?

Provocation is only a defence to murder so I'd say you're being a little pessimistic if you think the OP's husband is going to be charged with murder.

On the other hand, you're being excessively optimistic if you think the OP's husband can use provocation as a defence to an assault charge.

MarkAnthony

UrbanFox wrote: »

I don't really like the idea of the so called citizens arrest. That idea puts members of the public in the position of thinking that they are like police officers. It is not fair or sensible to expect ordinary members of the public to know where the boundaries lie legally and that lack of knowledge may not provide an excuse if they go too far. It is just too easy to go too far in the white heat of confrontation and to leave a trail of regret ! Better to do just enough to repel the attacker and leave it there.

On the one hand organs of the state should be subject to very strict limitations. Members of the public however should be given leeway. If one makes an arrest and it turns out not to have been strictly within the bounds of the law the matter should be dropped and that's the end of it. The guards, however are never going to encourage someone to make an arrest, generally for good reasons, but frankly in many cases because they simply don't want the work.

It's different if excessive force or there has been a long term of false imprisonment, of course. But someone lifting the kid keying their car or egging their house should be encouraged.

Boards is replete with stories of communities under siege from asshats and asshat children. There's only two ways this gets dealt with. Guards and community working together or quietly in the back on an alley. I'd prefer the former but have been in a community that was forced to use the latter, thankfully restraint won out in that instance.

Peregrinus

slimjimmc wrote: »

Thanks, saw that and then deleted my erroneous post but G'dammit you're too quick

Careful, now! S. 12 is wide, but not indefinitely wide.

On the facts in the OP, the husband confronted the kids after the house had been egged, so he can't claim to have arrested someone "in the act of committing an offence" under s.12(1).

That leaves s. 12(2), arresting someone "whom he, with reasonable cause, suspects to be guilty of the offence". But these are kids, and kids under 12 cannot be guilty of any offence and, it follows, cannot reasonably be suspected of being guilty. So, "how old was the kid?" is a very important question here.

Other factors: Even if they're over the age of 12, in the current climate any physical interference with a young person is fraught with danger. You may not like that, but you'd be a fool to ignore it.

Plus, if these are neighbour kids that you can identify either by name or on sight, you have no need to arrest them, and the guards (and the courts) will be distinctly unsympathetic to any attempt to defend an allegation of assault with a claim to have been effecting an arrest.