Norway to switchoff analogue radio in 2017

The Cush

Norway announced yesterday it will be the first country in the world to switchoff analogue radio in 2017. Switchoff will be region by region starting in Jan and completing in Dec that year.

DAB coverage in Norway now exceeds the FM coverage. DAB provides Norway with 22 national channels, compared to five channels transmitting nationwide on FM.

http://radiotoday.ie/2015/04/dab-radio-switchover-announced-for-norway/

I swindled the NSA

What is this fascination Governments have with "switching off" analogue radio ?

What other users are clamouring for the frequency ranges in question ?

The "cost saving" argument doesn't really wash either. For decades broadcasters were quite happy to duplicate services on AM and FM without complaining about the cost.

Analogue radio works. Digital radio is inferior to (or at best equal to) analogue radio in just about every respect (including all the reasons it was supposedly created for in the first place) Digital radio technology may (and probably will) eventually evolve to a point where it can reasonably considered to be superior to analogue radio but that day is a long way off and when it happens it wont be based on either Eureka 147/DAB or IBOC/HD.

Digifriendly

Will be a long time before UK and ROI follow suit. A lot of new models of cars still only have analogue radios fitted in them.

Stillhouette

Digifriendly wrote: »

Will be a long time before UK and ROI follow suit. A lot of new models of cars still only have analogue radios fitted in them.

And long may it continue. The notion of it happening in Ireland is funny. Try driving around the country listening to DAB and you wont be long hearing nothing.

TAFKAlawhec

I swindled the NSA wrote: »

What is this fascination Governments have with "switching off" analogue radio ?

What other users are clamouring for the frequency ranges in question ?

A good question - the frequencies that would me vacated are far too low for mobile celluar use. They could be used for wide coverage, one-way transmission for some cases but nothing obvious sticks out.

I swindled the NSA wrote: »

The "cost saving" argument doesn't really wash either. For decades broadcasters were quite happy to duplicate services on AM and FM without complaining about the cost.

In many cases across Europe quite a few radio stations have been simulcasting on FM & DAB for anything between 10-20 years. Stations that have been simulcasting on FM & AM are now much fewer than before and even before DAB(+) has even taken traction, AM transmissions were switched off e.g. 2FM in 2004. Also back in the 80's and 90's there was not the proliferation of stations that are now available on various platforms, the advertising money pie wasn't cut in so many different directions etc. not to mention that many listeners were dependent on MW or LW because of a lack of listenable FM signal. Additional low-powered relays fill in most of those gaps. Back in the early 90's RTÉ had hardly any FM radio relays, many people in outlying areas had only MW to listen to RTÉ Radio 1 or 2FM.

Worth remembering as an example that BBC Radio 1 only got its own FM network started with a handful of stations in 1988 which gradually progressed being built before switching their MW network down in 1994. That switch over period was just six years, and they were estimated to have lost around 1 million listeners (temporarily anyway) with the MW network shut down.

I swindled the NSA wrote: »

Analogue radio works. Digital radio is inferior to (or at best equal to) analogue radio in just about every respect (including all the reasons it was supposedly created for in the first place) Digital radio technology may (and probably will) eventually evolve to a point where it can reasonably considered to be superior to analogue radio but that day is a long way off and when it happens it wont be based on either Eureka 147/DAB or IBOC/HD.

The stations planning to be switched off from FM in Norway are all currently available on DAB (v1) there using MP2 compression with a bitrate of 192 kbps. That is the same bitrate and codec used for the main sound channels of each TV station on Saorview as well as many TV channels on satellite at 28 east; some TV channels there have an audio bitrate of just 128 kbps. The Eureka 147 platform is capable of giving very good to excellent sound quality. Note that I said capable. The UK has done it a great disservice especially on the Digital 1 ensemble with nearly all stations in MP2 mono at 64 - 80 kpbs. DAB+ improves on this and looks like becoming a standard at least across Europe - it looks like there is little turning back now on it with several countries that originally abandoned DAB v1 in the 00's now looking to seriously press on with DAB+.
Both analogue (FM/MW/LW) and digital (DAB/DAB+) platforms have their own strengths and weaknesses. In a place like Norway where much of the land is mountainous, DAB wins over FM in frequency planning, coverage and spectrum use - multipath effects don't generally bother DAB except in some exceptional circumstances where as FM could be all but unlistenable in an area. OTOH FM can deliver a wide coverage area from a single high powered transmitter if the topology is favourable, whereas DAB for SFN purposes has to be more carefully covered to a more limited area than it could be capable of and hence works better as a celluar network compared to FM of pumping it out and see how far it goes (assuming no other restrictions for co-channel interference etc.)

DAB also gives an advantage in Norway of the cost of having loads of low-powered filler stations on FM needed for each station in areas shielded from main transmitter sites. AFAIK only NRK P1 (the main public station) has pretty much universal coverage, with commercial stations serving significantly less people. The commitment in Norway is to get DAB coverage to match that of NRK P1 before switching off the national FM services, therefore people in more isolated locations that might have had at best just two or three PSB stations gain a lot more with DAB(+).

Digifriendly wrote: »

Will be a long time before UK and ROI follow suit. A lot of new models of cars still only have analogue radios fitted in them.

In the UK something like 2/3rds of newly sold cars are now fitted with DAB radios. The BBC is on a continuous programme to improve its own ensemble coverage and at the moment it shows in Northern Ireland compared to Digital 1 and Bauer NI's ensembles. Digital 1 is promising to bring coverage to match that of Classic FM's FM network while Digital 2 should launch later this year with a slightly reduced coverage area; they only plan one transmitter in NI so far at Black Mountain. It's a stark contrast with the Republic of Ireland at present where there is just a small RTÉ DAB network that is concentrated mainly in three cities at present and with no plans to expand beyond this, while commercial interest is almost zero with just the TBS test multiplex going at the moment.

I'd be fairly confident at this stage that by this time in 2025, all the BBC national stations at least as well as Classic FM will have shut down their FM networks. BBC local radio might still be on FM in some places as their coverage is dependent on local ensemble operators and it might not be "complete". Absolute, TalkSport and BBC 5 Live will have almost certainly gone at this stage from MW as well, not to mention BBC Radio 4 LW. Commercial local radio might have gone by that point to, especially many of the current local Capital/Heart stations. Community stations will probably be in a switch over state with many still on FM, there is some testing planning to take place at small scales to find cost-effective ways, if that can then get done cheaper than FM then I don't think they'll hang around for too much longer especially if FM becomes the graveyard band that MW now is itself.

Despite all of this, I'm still of the belief that DAB was a solution looking for a problem, but at this stage at least in Europe, it looks like there's no turning back now.

The Cush

Digifriendly wrote: »

Will be a long time before UK and ROI follow suit. A lot of new models of cars still only have analogue radios fitted in them.

In Norway the one stumbling block to switching off FM could be the % of DAB radios/adapters in cars. A survey at the end of 2014 indicated it's around 20%.

That figure will improve over the next 2 years, 60% of new cars sold in Norway today have DAB as standard or optional equipment with the top 20 best selling brands having it available as standard or option. The automotive industry in Norway is also looking at options to upgrade older cars ahead of FM switchoff.

In the UK, according to Digital Radio UK, almost two-thirds (64.9%) of new cars registrations have DAB as standard with a further 10% having it as an optional extra (http://www.getdigitalradio.com/dab-news/view/524).

God only knows when we'll have a nationwide DAB network let alone an FM switchoff date.

Elsewhere, other countries are looking at FM switchoff include Denmark (2019), Switzerland/Sweden (2020-24)

TAFKAlawhec

The Cush wrote: »

God only knows when we'll have a nationwide DAB network let alone an FM switchoff date.

I suspect if it wasn't for pressure from the EU & ITU, a 4 channel analogue TV network along with a minimal DTT network would still be in place in the Republic. :eek:

Interestingly, 17th June 2015 is the date under ITU regulations that in Region 1 (Europe, Africa, Middle East & Iran) all analogue UHF TV allocations cease to have primary service and no longer have protection from other (read DVB-T(2)) services that can then transmit at full power. VHF Band III analogue allocations however can have a five year stay of execution.

The Cush

TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

The stations planning to be switched off from FM in Norway are all currently available on DAB (v1) there using MP2 compression with a bitrate of 192 kbps. That is the same bitrate and codec used for the main sound channels of each TV station on Saorview as well as many TV channels on satellite at 28 east; some TV channels there have an audio bitrate of just 128 kbps. The Eureka 147 platform is capable of giving very good to excellent sound quality. Note that I said capable. The UK has done it a great disservice especially on the Digital 1 ensemble with nearly all stations in MP2 mono at 64 - 80 kpbs. DAB+ improves on this and looks like becoming a standard at least across Europe - it looks like there is little turning back now on it with several countries that originally abandoned DAB v1 in the 00's now looking to seriously press on with DAB+.

DAB also gives an advantage in Norway of the cost of having loads of low-powered filler stations on FM needed for each station in areas shielded from main transmitter sites. AFAIK only NRK P1 (the main public station) has pretty much universal coverage, with commercial stations serving significantly less people. The commitment in Norway is to get DAB coverage to match that of NRK P1 before switching off the national FM services, therefore people in more isolated locations that might have had at best just two or three PSB stations gain a lot more with DAB(+).

The current situation, 5 national FM stations

Channel||Analogue coverage|DAB|Bitrate kbps
NRK P1|PSB|100%|DAB/DAB+*|80-192/80
NRK P2|PSB|99%|DAB/DAB+*|160-192/?
NRK P3|PSB|96%|DAB/DAB+*|128-192/?
P4 Radio Hele Norge|Commercial**|80%|DAB|128
Radio Norge|Commercial**|92%|DAB|160

*NRK1/2/3 are carried on 7 regional muxes in DAB (coverage 99.5%) and temporarily on the national commercial mux in DAB+ (coverage 92.8%). By 2017 all stations in Norway will broadcast in DAB+.
**Commercial channels are carried on the national commercial multiplex (coverage 92.8%).

coylemj

The Cush wrote: »

In Norway the one stumbling block to switching off FM could be the % of DAB radios/adapters in cars. A survey at the end of 2014 indicated it's around 20%.

I can't believe that a country where only 20% of existing cars have DAB is going to switch off FM.

The Cush wrote: »

That figure will improve over the next 2 years, 60% of new cars sold in Norway today have DAB as standard or optional equipment

So 40% of new cars being sold in 2015 in Norway have no option for DAB and it's not standard on all the remaining 60%, just a mix of standard and optional - does that mean that 10/20/30/40 have it fitted?

The Cush wrote: »

The automotive industry in Norway is also looking at options to upgrade older cars ahead of FM switchoff.

'Looking at' is completely meaningless - has the auto industry made any attempt to estimate how much it will cost per car?

Sorry Cush, you're a good man with the technical stuff but this sounds like naked propaganda and morketing.

The Cush

The 20% figure was last Dec, no doubt it'll be higher by the end of 2017.

Regarding standard fit/optional extra on new cars, no figures that I can find but the option is there if buyers choose it.

Whatever about propaganda and marketing the fact is the Norwegian government has started the countdown clock with the larger population areas having more than 2 years to upgrade (http://radio.no/2015/04/norway-to-switch-off-fm-in-2017/).

Norwegian switchover website, car radio section (use Google translate) - http://radio.no/bil/

The Cush

Less than a week remaining to the first region in Norway to switchoff FM radio on Jan 11th - http://radio.no/countdown/

marno21

The Cush wrote: »

Less than a week remaining to the first region in Norway to switchoff FM radio on Jan 11th - http://radio.no/countdown/

With a bit of luck that nonsense won't fly around here.

FM radio is still on the ball quality wise, compared with DAB. Switching off analogue TV freed up valuable spectrum as well as a major quality improvement. Freeing up FM would cost a fortune for poorer quality service (lets drive more people away from radio why don't we), less coverage and useless spectrum.

RTE should be adding more relays if anything. Rosscarbery, Mount Gabriel, Abbeyfeale, Youghal possibly along with the rest of the services from Cairn Hill and Kilduff (both of which only have RTE R1 at present, since 2005 and 2011 resepctively), would be a good start. Many more places with poor FM coverage that I just can't bring to mind. Transmitters are already in place.

Digifriendly

I get a top quality RTE FM signal here in NI (Moira near Lisburn) from Clermont Carn but not a whiff of DAB from the same transmitter. I guess it is nulled northwards. i can of course listen via Saorview which at least is something but are there any stations broadcast on DAB in ROI that are not available on Saorview? I guess some of the commercial stations.
No date set in UK for ASO FM so I think it will be someway down the line. Latest edition of Radio Listeners Guide (well worth a buy for all radio buffs BTW) gives no indication whatsoever of any timetable for ASO. I must say if MW is included in ASO I will be disappointed as almost certainly I will lose listening to BBC Radio Scotland and Radio Wales as digital signal will not penetrate as far as to where I live. I know I can listen via internet but remember that some programmes e.g. football commentaries are not made available on this medium due to rights issues.

egal

Digifriendly wrote: »

I know I can listen via internet but remember that some programmes e.g. football commentaries are not made available on this medium due to rights issues.

I am not completely sure but I think football commentaries are available on the official Radioplayer app. Search for UK Radioplayer.

Capt'n Midnight

marno21 wrote: »

FM radio is still on the ball quality wise, compared with DAB. Switching off analogue TV freed up valuable spectrum as well as a major quality improvement.

There is no comparison the old fuzzy picture and perfect HD and all the new channels and all the spare capacity and it all fits in the space of two analog channels, and country wide you need less separation of frequencies from nearby transmitters. AND saorview was up and running in the unused frequencies on the original band. Or look at the UK where the band that used to carry 5 channels now has umteen freeview channels.

It also saves a fortune in electricity.

Freeing up FM would cost a fortune for poorer quality service (lets drive more people away from radio why don't we), less coverage and useless spectrum.

FM uses 20.5 MHz between 87.5 - 108 MHz
DAB uses an ADDITIONAL 56 Mz between 174 - 223 - 230 MHz

So even if it carried as many channels as FM it's far,far less efficient at bandwidth.




Like many commuters I use FM in the car mainly for the traffic reports and news. FM means I can flick between stations very quickly. That's a captive audience. Without the live update I might as well listen to mp3's or podcasts, and then, as sure as sure I won't be listening to Ads then.

TAFKAlawhec

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

FM uses 20.5 MHz between 87.5 - 108 MHz
DAB uses an ADDITIONAL 56 Mz between 174 - 223 - 230 MHz

So even if it carried as many channels as FM it's far,far less efficient at bandwidth.

That isn't anything to do with bandwidth efficiency.

DAB has, by international agreement, a wider frequency range made available to it being shared with DVB-T(2) in certain countries.

The traditional Japanese FM Band between 76-90MHz (now extended to 95MHz) is 14MHz wide - this doesn't make it more bandwidth efficient than the ITU FM Band, nor does the ORIT band (65.9 to 74MHz).

To calculate actual efficiency you'd need to take the 200kHz wide Wideband FM transmission and put it up against the 1.7MHz wide DAB ensemble transmission. In general, DAB is more efficient (and DAB+ even more so) but it depends on the exact circumstances e.g. the 8.8MHz of sub-bands used by RTÉ & BBC to transmit four national networks on Band II, whilst the same amount of stations & more can be compressed into a single Band III ensemble using the same single 1.7MHz ensemble nationwide.

Sam Russell

TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

That isn't anything to do with bandwidth efficiency.

DAB has, by international agreement, a wider frequency range made available to it being shared with DVB-T(2) in certain countries.

The traditional Japanese FM Band between 76-90MHz (now extended to 95MHz) is 14MHz wide - this doesn't make it more bandwidth efficient than the ITU FM Band, nor does the ORIT band (65.9 to 74MHz).

To calculate actual efficiency you'd need to take the 200kHz wide Wideband FM transmission and put it up against the 1.7MHz wide DAB ensemble transmission. In general, DAB is more efficient (and DAB+ even more so) but it depends on the exact circumstances e.g. the 8.8MHz of sub-bands used by RTÉ & BBC to transmit four national networks on Band II, whilst the same amount of stations & more can be compressed into a single Band III ensemble using the same single 1.7MHz ensemble nationwide.

I remember being told that 'efficiency' is in the wallet.

FM is already widely used and cheap to implement in a radio, while DAB is not.

FM is light on battery operated receivers while DAB is heavy on batteries.

FM is easy to switch from station to station while DAB is much less so.

FM works well with crappy aerials while DAB does not (digital cliff effect).

Etc. etc.

Let us keep FM for the next 30 years.

TAFKAlawhec

Sam Russell wrote: »

I remember being told that 'efficiency' is in the wallet.

The issue at hand was spectral efficiency.

FM is light on battery operated receivers while DAB is heavy on batteries.

This is less of an issue than it used to be.

FM is easy to switch from station to station while DAB is much less so.

You must never have used a DAB radio to come out with that - the point of DAB is to allow listeners to switch between stations without having to manually tune.

FM works well with crappy aerials while DAB does not (digital cliff effect).

The use of ****e aerials should not be a positive to any system - otherwise by such measurements analogue TV works better than DVB-T.

Let us keep FM for the next 30 years.

I have no doubt that FM radio still has at least a generation to run. :pac:

Capt'n Midnight

TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

That isn't anything to do with bandwidth efficiency.

Digital TV gives more channels in higher quality using less spectrum, less transmitter power.

DAB takes extra spectrum.
You need more fill in transmitters for the same coverage.

DAB takes about the bandwidth to provide the same quality but many stations are transmitted in lower quality. The equivalent for DTT would be to transmit in mono or even 405 line. In fairness FM is used mainly in noisy backgrounds.

Regarding the power issue for receivers, fair enough, it doesn't suck as much as it used to, but still no match for a 1980's Philips pocket radio running off AAA's and besides right now every car has an FM radio and most people have an FM receiver in their pocket. DAB+ smartphones are a new and rare thing.


DAB is still a partial solution looking for a problem.

Capt'n Midnight

TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

You must never have used a DAB radio to come out with that - the point of DAB is to allow listeners to switch between stations without having to manually tune

On a related note, I HATE when there aren't enough buttons on a receiver. Having 6 presets isn't anywhere enough. Even 12 isn't enough and it annoys me having to switch to the second band of 6.

There's a lot to be said for analog dials. They are very fast for scanning FM channels , especially if you live in the Dublin area where the commercial stations are clustered at the top of the band. Some of us listen to the songs / news and not to the stations. I'll flick till I hear something I like , the inane verbal drivel of certain DJ's is head wrecking.

Yes it wrecks my head that android phones have firewalled off the FM receivers otherwise we'd much better interfaces.

I have no doubt that FM radio still has at least a generation to run. :pac:

Hopefully

I have a DAB radio.
I don't use it. At home I have Saorview, Saorsat, Freesat,internet radio etc, and FM. On the move I have car and phone with FM, the DAB radio has a mains plug.

TAFKAlawhec

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Digital TV gives more channels in higher quality using less spectrum, less transmitter power.

DAB takes extra spectrum.
You need more fill in transmitters for the same coverage.

DAB takes about the bandwidth to provide the same quality but many stations are transmitted in lower quality. The equivalent for DTT would be to transmit in mono or even 405 line. In fairness FM is used mainly in noisy backgrounds.

DAB is capable of providing better quality than FM whose upper audio range is restricted to 15kHz - however it is mainly down to bean counters, as well as the promotion of giving more choice of stations, that quality is squeezed.

A single DAB ensemble takes up a 1.7MHz portion of spectrum, while a FM transmission takes up 200kHz - however while DAB ensembles can be placed on adjacent channels in the same area, FM generally doesn't work well with this so usually needs 400kHz separation in the same transmission area to avoid mutual interference - five FM stations packed together like this takes up 2MHz of spectrum, those same five as an MP2 DAB station would fit into 1.7MHz with a quality at least as equal if not better (48kHz sampling rate) than their FM broadcasts. This compression efficiency is enhanced even more with DAB+ using HE-AAC+. Also if a relay is needed for FM, this has to use a separate frequency from the main transmission - with DAB, this can work on-channel.

DAB is still a partial solution looking for a problem.

That is something I've said in the past - DAB is far from a perfect solution but it does have some advantages over FM (resistance to multipath sibilance, on-channel repeaters, clear stereo if signal threshold is reached as opposed to triangular noise affecting FM stereo, off the top of my head). Both platforms have pros & cons over each other.

The Cush

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Digital TV gives more channels in higher quality using less spectrum, less transmitter power.

DAB takes extra spectrum.
You need more fill in transmitters for the same coverage.

DAB uses a Single Frequency Network (SFN) for nationwide coverage of a single mux, same frequency nationwide. DTT mostly uses a Multi Frequency Network (MFN) for nationwide coverage of a single mux, multiple frequencies nationwide.

Sam Russell

The Cush wrote: »

DAB uses a Single Frequency Network (SFN) for nationwide coverage of a single mux, same frequency nationwide. DTT mostly uses a Multi Frequency Network (MFN) for nationwide coverage of a single mux, multiple frequencies nationwide.

You have us there - we do not have national coverage with DAB.

I find that the delay on DAB particularly annoying. If a radio is in one room on FM and another room has DAB on the same station there is a dreadful echo.

Few stations are on DAB so one cannot listen to, say, Newstalk on DAB.

The Cush

Sam Russell wrote: »

You have us there - we do not have national coverage with DAB.

Didn't say we had, I was replying to Capt'n Midnight's comment on DAB vs. DTT spectrum not the status of our DAB rollout.

Sam Russell

The Cush wrote: »

Didn't say we had, I was replying to Capt'n Midnight's comment on DAB vs. DTT spectrum not the status of our DAB rollout.

I am just pointing out that we are way behind in doing anything about FM, and long may it continue.

The Cush

In less than 3 weeks Norway completes the switchoff of its national FM network - https://www.medietilsynet.no/en/about-medietilsynet/digital-radio/

As Norway finishes, Italy beings.

On Nov. 14, the Broadcasting Authority of South Tyrol (RAS) announced a shutdown plan for VHF FM in the region - https://www.ras.bz.it/de/digitalradio-weiter-ausgebaut-ukw-abschaltplan-der-ras-von-der-landesregierung-genehmigt/.

On Dec 5th 19 FM transmitters at 6 sites will be switched off, followed in 2018 by 22 transmitters at 7 sites. There are currently 226 FM transmitters which will be replaced by 82 DAB transmitters. Their VHF transmitters network is over 30 years old and requires replacement, the decommissioned transmitters will be used for spare parts to maintain the remaining network.

Also in Italy, from 2020, all radios sold are mandated to include a digital receiver.

Neighbours Switzerland begin FM switchoff in 2020 - https://www.bakom.admin.ch/bakom/en/homepage/electronic-media/technology/digital-transmission/radio-industry-sets-a-course-to-phase-out-fm.html

The Cush

Norway completes national switchover to Digital Radio

https://twitter.com/WorldDAB/status/940887883484946432

byte

A friend sent me this link, which I think is pretty good:

https://twitter.com/i/moments/941261380040224771

coylemj

So the 'national network' has switched to DAB. Which is like saying that RTE is no longer broadcasting on FM.

But.....

OSLO — Norway’s Metro Group is continuing to broadcast on FM in Oslo, despite the order to shut down last Friday. Radio Metro, The Beat and Radio Rox remain on-air, according to radionytt.no.

P4 and Radio Norway turned off their FM stations in eastern Norway on Friday, Dec. 8. Earlier this fall, NRK did the same. The state-owned broadcasters demanded that the local radio stations in the big cities should turn off their FM signals simultaneously, so that they would not get any benefits or hijack listeners in the transition to DAB.

http://www.radiomagonline.com/around-the-world/0020/some-fms-in-norway-defy-shutdown-orders/39445

which in the Irish context is the same as Today FM and iRadio continuing to broadcast on FM which p1sses off RTE because they're going to lose the listeners who couldn't be bothered to buy a new radio just because the government tells them to.