Juvenile Early Achievers

Wottle

I remember reading a stat or hearing about it (arcu rankings?) that young kids who win a lot tend not to be the top older kids.
I can see two possible reasons why within our club.
One kid is so used to winning that she seems to be putting a lot of pressure on herself to keep the streak up and has started to get a bit crazy before races (developing the flu an hour before a race). This kids loves training, says she loves racing but yet may have a meltdown before big races.
I know another who used to win everything, not so much at the distance stuff now, so has now shied away from distance because he's not winning at it.

Is this natural. Didn't Gillick before a big race say he couldn't eat for days before. Is it sth kids just need to get used to? or should they dial back the amount of racing they do? Any psychological tricks to help them get over the thoughts of racing? Should there be a better system in place for our younger juveniles?

Chivito550

Wottle wrote: »

I remember reading a stat or hearing about it (arcu rankings?) that young kids who win a lot tend not to be the top older kids.
I can see two possible reasons why within our club.
One kid is so used to winning that she seems to be putting a lot of pressure on herself to keep the streak up and has started to get a bit crazy before races (developing the flu an hour before a race). This kids loves training, says she loves racing but yet may have a meltdown before big races.
I know another who used to win everything, not so much at the distance stuff now, so has now shied away from distance because he's not winning at it.

Is this natural. Didn't Gillick before a big race say he couldn't eat for days before. Is it sth kids just need to get used to? or should they dial back the amount of racing they do? Any psychological tricks to help them get over the thoughts of racing? Should there be a better system in place for our younger juveniles?

Utter craziness. IMO Under 12, Under 13 Nationals etc shouldn't be too important. I don't think it matters a jot who wins. At that age what is important is that lots of people are participating in as many events as possible and are having fun.

Team based events are the way to go. In Melbourne there are an overwhelming amount of juvenilles (referred to as simply Juniors there) competing in interclub meets each week, along with the best Little Athletics meets and system in the world. They are doing 5-6 events a week, helping their club score points. The focus really is on the club doing well in those meets, so that takes the pressure off the athletes. The more events you try the more used to losing you get, which is an important thing to experience.

I can't understand all this pressure on a 13 year old winning. Does it really matter?

RayCun

Chivito550 wrote: »

I can't understand all this pressure on a 13 year old winning. Does it really matter?

Usually (though not always) most of the pressure comes from the kids themselves. Team and relay events sometimes help, but can also be a problem where kids don't want to let down the team.

TRR_the_turd

RayCun wrote: »

Usually (though not always) most of the pressure comes from the kids themselves. Team and relay events sometimes help, but can also be a problem where kids don't want to let down the team.

6th Class of primary school, we won our 4 * 100 relay prelim in Belfield at a canter. Headed to Santry for the final. Baton was handed to final runner, we were about 20 metres ahead. The fcuker (I feel like naming and shaming him) dropped the baton, half way down the finishing straight. To this day I can't look at him without the urge of wanting to kill him!

Wottle

RayCun wrote: »

Usually (though not always) most of the pressure comes from the kids themselves.

This is the case in the first example. I'm good friends with her parents and neither they or I put pressure on her, it's all her. The flu thing actually happened in the team All Ireland champs last year in Tullamore. My own theory is that she's just a very competitive kid and gives every race her all and I think it's the dread of the effort that might be getting the best of her (as well as getting beat).
Chivito has given me an idea though, put more emphasis on other events could be the way to go.

We obviously want the kids to do well as you would think success is what keeps them in the club, but that stat is a frightening one and maybe we need to be shielding them a little?

kit3

RayCun wrote: »

Usually (though not always) most of the pressure comes from the kids themselves.

Can identify with this - my daughter is running in schools races (just 11 a few weeks ago) and she's naturally competitive & wants to win. No pressure from us other than we're delighted for her when she does. Having said that, she's cool out about it, doesn't stress but is determined.

kit3

TRR_the_turd wrote: »

6th Class of primary school, we won our 4 * 100 relay prelim in Belfield at a canter. Headed to Santry for the final. Baton was handed to final runner, we were about 20 metres ahead. The fcuker (I feel like naming and shaming him) dropped the baton, half way down the finishing straight. To this day I can't look at him without the urge of wanting to kill him!

Is he still running now - don't suppose he's around here is he ? (If he is you HAVE to name him :rolleyes:)

Wottle

kit3 wrote: »

Can identify with this - my daughter is running in schools races (just 11 a few weeks ago) and she's naturally competitive & wants to win. No pressure from us other than we're delighted for her when she does. Having said that, she's cool out about it, doesn't stress but is determined.

Great way to be, my own two give it their all and where they finish, they finish. They never seem too bothered (although the younger one used to have a cry beforehand but that's all gone now).
I've just started my 5th year of coaching and you'll come across the small few who nerves might get the better of but with this kid in particular I just feel it's on a different level.

RayCun

How can you not make a big deal of a kid when they do really well? is a problem. And if you congratulate them when they win, or have improved on last time, and you congratulate them a little less when they don't... you're contributing to the pressure they put on themselves.

There are some that argue there shouldn't be any competition until the kids are older, around 15

Wottle

RayCun wrote: »

How can you not make a big deal of a kid when they do really well? is a problem. And if you congratulate them when they win, or have improved on last time, and you congratulate them a little less when they don't... you're contributing to the pressure they put on themselves.

There are some that argue there shouldn't be any competition until the kids are older, around 15

Yep, double edged sword for sure.
I think the problem with competition starting at 15 is that kids who want a bit of cometition will go down the GAA or soccer route.

roseybear

RayCun wrote: »

How can you not make a big deal of a kid when they do really well? is a problem. And if you congratulate them when they win, or have improved on last time, and you congratulate them a little less when they don't... you're contributing to the pressure they put on themselves.

There are some that argue there shouldn't be any competition until the kids are older, around 15

In a way I agree with this. I was a very good juvenile up until about that age and when I started not doing so well it really hit me hard - I'm 24 now and don't see myself competing unless I think il get a medal in it or run a decent time (which in my head would be national standard as opposed to county of this makes sense).

average_runner

To be honest the most important thing for kids is technique, technique and technique!!
Also never be negative to a kid, always encouragement etc.

Bigger kids might win when younger but alot of them lose out when the smaller kids grow.

NetwerkErrer

average_runner wrote: »

To be honest the most important thing for kids is technique, technique and technique!!
Also never be negative to a kid, always encouragement etc.

Bigger kids might win when younger but alot of them lose out when the smaller kids grow.

Yeah, I'd agree with that. Physical maturity plays a huge part up to 15-16 especially and even a little beyond.

Dubgal72

My perspective would be that you need to approach a developing athlete holistically. Performance, physical and mental development are inextricably entwined during these years, even more so when you add in changing bodies and hormones. Technique, technique, technique is important. Just as important is trust, trust, trust.
A young mind very often will not see 'the big picture' and we have to gently remind him/her that there are other goals and 'good things'. I think it's very important that a young person is not encouraged to specialise in any one activity until at least 15 and to keep a few different activities on the go, that should go without saying really?!

Dubgal72

Just a thought...for this particular child, winning seems very important. Could you talk about adult training and how very experienced (and successful!) athletes treat some races as tempos and deliberately 'don't win' or even try to? Perhaps an occasional race approach like this would take some internal pressure off and the athlete might realize how nice it is to run without the weight of internal expectations. This in turn might restore some of the joy of running.

kit3

Dubgal72 wrote: »

Just a thought...for this particular child, winning seems very important. Could you talk about adult training and how very experienced (and successful!) athletes treat some races as tempos and deliberately 'don't win' or even try to? Perhaps an occasional race approach like this would take some internal pressure off and the athlete might realize how nice it is to run without the weight of internal expectations. This in turn might restore some of the joy of running.

That sounds like a really good idea

Wottle

Dubgal72 wrote: »

Just a thought...for this particular child, winning seems very important. Could you talk about adult training and how very experienced (and successful!) athletes treat some races as tempos and deliberately 'don't win' or even try to? Perhaps an occasional race approach like this would take some internal pressure off and the athlete might realize how nice it is to run without the weight of internal expectations. This in turn might restore some of the joy of running.

Thanks for a great reply Dubgal. I think that's a good idea. It is sth I've discussed with the kids before about using races to learn but maybe I need to emphasise it more or I might even get one of the older girls to have a chat with her.

Dubgal72

Ah good, and something I forgot to mention, he/she might bite more if the emphasis is put on the enormous self-discipline required to do this and how 'not everybody' can do this

kit3

Dubgal72 wrote: »

Ah good, and something I forgot to mention, he/she might bite more if the emphasis is put on the enormous self-discipline required to do this and how 'not everybody' can do this

You're wasted - you'd be a natural at child psychology

Chivito550

I'm not sure we should be encouraging children to throw races. I don't think that does anyone much good. It sort of devalues the sport. By all means try run the race a different way, to sort of experiment with different ways of running, to take the pressure off, but don't just tell a child to go out and lose on purpose. I think it's a bit dishonest and devalues it for the child who does win.

Simple way to take the pressure off is to do more events. If the child is winning the 800m all the time, then do some 200m and hurdle races, maybe a discus. No way will he/she win everything!

kit3

Chivito550 wrote: »

I'm not sure we should be encouraging children to throw races. I don't think that does anyone much good. It sort of devalues the sport. By all means try run the race a different way, to sort of experiment with different ways of running, to take the pressure off, but don't just tell a child to go out and lose on purpose. I think it's a bit dishonest and devalues it for the child who does win.

Simple way to take the pressure off is to do more events. If the child is winning the 800m all the time, then do some 200m and hurdle races, maybe a discus. No way will he/she win everything!

I don't think it's about encouraging kids to throw races. Think it was suggested as a possible solution to take the pressure off this particular kid if she is making herself ill with pressure - if a kid is competitive they'll go all out anyway