The Dog Factory

Knine

On BBC1 at 9pm. It is about the world of puppy farming.

Tranceypoo

Oh God no I'm not able for that, I'm sticking to 'Give A Pet A Home' on UTV!!

Knine

Horrible I know. I'm recording Give a Pet a Home.

Inexile

Just finished watching 'The Dog Factory'. God its horrible. How the last place can be legal is beyond me and the owners don't care and have admitted in a public forum that they are farming the dogs.

Its so depressing really.

Knine

Looking for a gun licence was shocking & Canine Ireland saying 10 litters per bitch should be allowed. Disgraceful. Can you imagine what happens the breeding bitches when they are no longer of any use.

muddypaws

Knine wrote: »

Looking for a gun licence was shocking & Canine Ireland saying 10 litters per bitch should be allowed. Disgraceful. Can you imagine what happens the breeding bitches when they are no longer of any use.

This brings up the conundrum that Kennel Clubs face, and for which they get so much flak. Canine Ireland started up because the IKC have breeding rules, if the IKC and other Kennel Clubs make their rules too stringent, people just go elsewhere and then the dogs' welfare suffers even more.

Knine

The IKC breeding rules are not actually that strict. People would not have any reason to go elsewhere because of strict rules. Canine Ireland is an unrecognised bunch of puppy farmers.

Cherry Blossom

Vile, disgusting people the lot of them. The most shocking part for me was that people were actually buying pups from those people who refused to give the breeders details. Living it up in their big swanky house making £200,000 per year tax free from selling puppy farmed dogs. I just hope her majesty's revenue and customs are on to them after this.

muddypaws

Knine wrote: »

The IKC breeding rules are not actually that strict. People would not have any reason to go elsewhere because of strict rules. Canine Ireland is an unrecognised bunch of puppy farmers.

But they are stricter than Canine Ireland, and you're right, they're unrecognised, but an awful lot of puppy buyers don't know the difference, they are given papers for their dog, and they think they are legitimate. I have so many sitting in my filing cabinet from dogs that I have taken in

DBB

The Hamiltons were featured in Ear to the Ground a few years ago, held aloft by presenter Darragh McCullough as ethical, law-abiding people who make a living producing puppies.
He stood there in this huge shed with dozens of those square enclosures filled with stressed, anxious, scared bitches and their pups, and accepted comments including "the dogs won't leave their enclosures even if we leave them open...THAT'S how much our dogs love their enclosures". Sheesh.
And our legislators have legalised places like this? Why? Because Canine Ireland managed to infiltrate and seriously sway the working group who developed the legislation.
These places will exist and thrive as long as people keep buying these pups sourced on websites.THIS is why I hate these websites: I know there are *some* genuine (if not naive) breeders on there, but the bigger picture is that these websites act as a legitimate-looking and extremely lucrative advertising base for exactly the sort of people featured in tonight's show.

borderlinemeath

I remember that Ear to the Ground, they really do try and put on an air of respectability. Youtube clips of it do the rounds every so often on rescue pages too.

Part of the problem was that they were livestock farmers pre foot and mouth disease - and without tarring all farmers with the same brush - some of them really do think of every animal as a commodity. I actually think they see NOTHING wrong with how they manage that operation, from the automatic feeding even down to the fact that he thought it was completely acceptable to euthanise a dog with a shotgun. And tbh, that programme last night only touched on, without going into detail, why companion animals should not be treated like livestock. To the lay person buying a puppy, they'll still go to back yard breeders that have bred their 2 pets, without any health tests and left them to raise their pups out in the garden shed without much interaction or socialisation at all, because it doesn't look like intensive puppy farming.

muddypaws

Ironic, with the discussion on this thread, that the owner of Canine Ireland owns the puppy farm that has been issued with a closure notice and had dogs and horses seized.

mymo

I was wondering if it was him!

We live just a short distance from that area, there's a few dodgy farms that way, and I've heard some terrible stories, I just wish they would close the rest.

the beer revolu

I assume all the indignant people here are strict vegans??

borderlinemeath

the beer revolu wrote: »

I assume all the indignant people here are strict vegans??

Do you like winding up on this forum? A lot of the posters on this forum work with rescue animals and have encountered the mental and behavioural difficulties that are associated with the end result of these type of puppy farms. Are you involved in rescue in any way? Have you ever helped a dog that has been so neglected throughout it's puppyhood that it's terrified of it's surroundings and any human? Or so sick because it's been kept in squalid conditions? Maybe if you had you would be indignant too.

By the way I love a steak. Usually served medium rare. And I can still be as indignant as I like about puppy farmers and the mental suffering they inflict on the products of their trade.

kylith

the beer revolu wrote: »

I assume all the indignant people here are strict vegans??

Well, I know that you're not a vegan. Does that mean that you're ok with overbreeding, keeping animals in filthy, overcowded conditions, and denying medical attention?

Arbiter of Good Taste

the beer revolu wrote: »

I assume all the indignant people here are strict vegans??

This is the most pathetic strawman I have ever seen

muddypaws

the beer revolu wrote: »

I assume all the indignant people here are strict vegans??

No I'm not, carrots have feelings too you know

Whilst I do understand your point to a certain extent, there are many differences between farming livestock that is destined for the dinner plate, and breeding social animals that are destined to live in family homes, in close proximity with people. Lack of early socialisation will have a huge impact on the dogs and their future interactions. I actually have no problem with people eating dog in other countries, what I have a problem with is how the dogs are looked after and killed. If they were killed humanely, then I would feel hypocritical to object to it, when I eat steak, lamb etc myself. So to follow that, I also feel that raising an animal which is as sociable as dogs in the way this puppy farm has is unethical and cruel, and is damaging to the animals' welfare.

There are far more welfare standards and checks in place for livestock animals than there are for breeding dogs.

the beer revolu

muddypaws wrote: »

No I'm not, carrots have feelings too you know

Whilst I do understand your point to a certain extent, there are many differences between farming livestock that is destined for the dinner plate, and breeding social animals that are destined to live in family homes, in close proximity with people. Lack of early socialisation will have a huge impact on the dogs and their future interactions. I actually have no problem with people eating dog in other countries, what I have a problem with is how the dogs are looked after and killed. If they were killed humanely, then I would feel hypocritical to object to it, when I eat steak, lamb etc myself. So to follow that, I also feel that raising an animal which is as sociable as dogs in the way this puppy farm has is unethical and cruel, and is damaging to the animals' welfare.

There are far more welfare standards and checks in place for livestock animals than there are for breeding dogs.

Thank you for an intelligent, measured, unemotional response to what was a provocative post.
My post was not intended to wind anyone up but rather to provoke debate and rational thought.

borderlinemeath

the beer revolu wrote: »

Thank you for an intelligent, measured, unemotional response to what was a provocative post.
My post was not intended to wind anyone up but rather to provoke debate and rational thought.

Y'see I don't think it was. You've now made a passive aggressive little dig at other posters who did respond to your winding up. Provoke debate about what? Veganism? Livestock farming? Because it's not about puppy farming, that's for sure. Your initial post was intended as a dig, and to try and dress it up and to say that you were trying to "provoke debate and rational thought" is laughable. There's plenty of facebook pages where indignant keyboard warriors don't get off their backsides yet threaten the sun moon and stars against puppy farmers, you might get a decent rise out of them.

DBB

The beer revolu,
This thread is about puppy farming, not veganism. If you wish to debate puppy farming vs veganism, start a new thread on it. But do not drag this thread off topic.
To all: back on topic now please.
Thanks,
DBB

I saw only part of this program. The part I saw was a reporter breaking into a breeding premises. Once inside, I expected to see dogs and puppies sleeping in muck and hungry, diseased. What was shown was dogs and puppies in clean cages with plenty of food. The ethics of such breeding is one thing, but I saw nothing to say the animals were being ill treated. Having reared a few litters in my house, I know only too well how difficult it is on the mother when their milk dries up and the puppies still want to suckle. Seperating them was the best option until homes were secured for them.

borderlinemeath

Deleted User wrote: »

I saw only part of this program. The part I saw was a reporter breaking into a breeding premises. Once inside, I expected to see dogs and puppies sleeping in muck and hungry, diseased. What was shown was dogs and puppies in clean cages with plenty of food. The ethics of such breeding is one thing, but I saw nothing to say the animals were being ill treated. Having reared a few litters in my house, I know only too well how difficult it is on the mother when their milk dries up and the puppies still want to suckle. Seperating them was the best option until homes were secured for them.

So all the litters of puppies were from bitches who's milk dried up? What about the learning and development that the bitch teaches her pups? What about the the fact that there was a layer of snow on the ground and the pups were in freezing conditions? What about the fact that they were afraid of the approaching humans?

Puppy farming isn't all about dirty dank sheds made of corrugated iron. The industrial nature of furnish kennels completely ignores the fact that dogs need socialisation and integration in a home environment to thrive and develop and to be able to confidently bond with it's human family. Those dogs and pups were terrified. They might have been clean looking but they were terrified nonetheless.

borderlinemeath

borderlinemeath wrote: »

So all the litters of puppies were from bitches who's milk dried up? What about the learning and development that the bitch teaches her pups? What about the the fact that there was a layer of snow on the ground and the pups were in freezing conditions? What about the fact that they were afraid of the approaching humans?

Puppy farming isn't all about dirty dank sheds made of corrugated iron. The industrial nature of furnish kennels completely ignores the fact that dogs need socialisation and integration in a home environment to thrive and develop and to be able to confidently bond with it's human family. Those dogs and pups were terrified. They might have been clean looking but they were terrified nonetheless.

The puppies shown were eating and obviously weaned. There was snow on the ground, but that doesn't mean there was no heating in the sheds. Wouldn't you be afraid if someone came into your home in the middle of the night and shone a light in your face? (I DO tend to look on the positives, rather than the negatives in life)

borderlinemeath

Deleted User wrote: »

The puppies shown were eating and obviously weaned. There was snow on the ground, but that doesn't mean there was no heating in the sheds. Wouldn't you be afraid if someone came into your home in the middle of the night and shone a light in your face? (I DO tend to look on the positives, rather than the negatives in life)

Weaned or not, the way to keep pups after they've weaned is still with their mother until they're at least 8 weeks old. You can divide a whelping box so that the mother can get some peace if she so wishes, but is still present to teach vital socialisation and toileting skills.

The reporter said it was freezing, why wouldn't she say if it was heated? As I pointed out in one of my previous posts, the Hamilton brothers were livestock farmers, every animal is treated as a commodity, heating would eat into the profit, as would having somebody actually feeding the dogs rather than an automatic system.

I really fail to see the positive side of their version of animal husbandry. Even for livestock, grazing is a natural behaviour, so I would imagine their intensive version of farming would go beyond canines.