Everyday is a school day!

Golfgraffix

Played in really bad conditions this morning, had a 6 foot putt for par on our par 5 4th hole, took up my marker and wind blew the ball past the hole, off the green and down the hill, left me with almost 20 yards back in.

I thought I could replace it but seemingly not!

If the wind blew it in the hole would it have been a par or birdie ?

J

Dr_Colossus

It would have gone down as a birdie. Can't say it's a rule I believe is fair as in your case a 6 foot putt becomes a 20 chip shot through no influence of your own especially since you had previously marked the ball and known it's location. I believe the same happened Gorfield in the matchplay stages of the West of Ireland a couple of years ago when the wind blew a makable birdie putt off the green and into a green side bunker turning a sure win into a half if not a loss on that hole.

The real puzzling contradiction to the rule is that if an outside agency such as a human, animal or bird had picked up your ball and replaced it 20 yards away then you could replaced it but I guess the wind isn't classified as an outside agency. No doubt someone will be along later to explain and quote the relevant rules as the above is just from my own understanding.

Some weather today so fair play for battling it out. I had driven to my own club and arrived at 09:15 to discover an abandoned car park. Transpired the competition (our first monthly medal and matchplay qualifier) was cancelled shortly after 09:00 as greens were starting to flood for the early starters and there were numerous players cancelling their tee times. Of course I only got the text advising of the cancellation as I drove in the carpark so a wasted one hour round trip. So frustrating when the weather had been great all week and it along with the Masters viewing was really building the appetite for the first medal.

HighLine

Yes... had the wind blown the ball in the hole, it would have been a birdie. That's just the luck of the draw whether it blows into the hole or off the green, down a steep slope and into a lake.

The interesting part however is that, even had you left your marker in place, you still would have had to play the ball from where the ball from it's new location. Once you replace the ball infront of the marker, the ball is in play irrespective of the marker being there or not. Now try telling that to a playing partner some Sunday morning after his ball blows off the green.

Golfgraffix

HighLine wrote: »

The interesting part however is that, even had you left your marker in place, you still would have had to play the ball from where the ball from it's new location. Once you replace the ball infront of the marker, the ball is in play irrespective of the marker being there or not. Now try telling that to a playing partner some Sunday morning after his ball blows off the green.

So this came up both on the course and in the bar afterwards. 10 opinions all said that if the marker was down then the ball WAS NOT in play.

Gonna try and find exact wording tonight. If nothing else it's something to out on our rules section of the website.

J

HighLine

Gotta love the old fogies in the bar who general haven't a clue when it comes to rules.

20-4/1 Ball Replaced on Putting Green But Ball-Marker Not Removed; Ball Then Moves
Q.A player replaces his ball on the putting green but does not remove his ball-marker. Subsequently the wind moves his ball to a new position. What is the ruling?

A.Under Rule 20-4, a ball is in play when it is replaced, whether or not the object used to mark its position has been removed. Consequently the ball must be played from the new position - see Decision 18-1/12.

18-1/12 Ball Replaced and at Rest Is Thereafter Moved by Wind
Q.A player replaces his ball on the putting green and the ball is at rest. Before the player addresses the ball, a sudden gust of wind blows the ball farther from the hole. The player plays the ball from its new position. Is that correct?

A.Yes. Wind is not an outside agency - see Definition of "Outside Agency." Accordingly, Rule 18-1 does not apply.

18-2a/7 Ball Moved by Wind Replaced
Q.In stroke play, a competitor's ball was moved by wind. Since wind is not an outside agency (see Definition of "Outside Agency"), he should have played it from where it came to rest, but he replaced it. What is the ruling?

A.The competitor incurred one penalty stroke under Rule 18-2a, and, before playing his next stroke, he should have replaced the ball on the spot where it came to rest after being moved by the wind. If he did not do so, he incurred a total penalty of two strokes - see penalty statement under Rule 18.

Dr_Colossus

Golfgraffix wrote: »

So this came up both on the course and in the bar afterwards. 10 opinions all said that if the market was down then the ball WAS NOT in play.

Gonna try and find exact wording tonight. If nothing else it's something to out on our rules section of the website.

J

All those 10 opinions were just that, an opinion and incorrect. HighLine is correct above, even if the ball marker was still in place, once the ball has been placed back in it's original position it's in play regardless of the ball marker. The lesson I learned from reading about Gorfield's experience in the West of Ireland a few years ago is if lining up a putt in high winds is to use a tee or anything except for the ball and only place the ball when ready to strike. It's a cruel sport.

PARlance

Just happened Dustin in the Masters. Ball rolled down towards the hole

Golfgorfield

Golfgraffix wrote: »

So this came up both on the course and in the bar afterwards. 10 opinions all said that if the marker was down then the ball WAS NOT in play.

Gonna try and find exact wording tonight. If nothing else it's something to out on our rules section of the website.

J

I asked some questions after it happened to me, if the marker was down it would make no difference, the marker being behind the ball does not take the ball out of play, it merely marks its position, only if you have the ball in hand is it out of play.

It can be both a fair and unfair scenario as per your dilemma and seeing DJ last night gains few feet nearer the hole!

Seve OB

It happened to me before so I looked it up... It's only a new enough rule 4 yrs old or so. It's amazing how you are always learning the rules of golf by having little things happen, and not being 100% sure, you have to go and look them up.

PARlance wrote: »

Just happened Dustin in the Masters. Ball rolled down towards the hole

I am only reading this thread now and was going to post that exact comment.

However, I did notice the commentator.. think it was Peter Allis (but not sure) made a statement that I didn't understand. He said something about DJ having already marked his ball so therefore it must be in play as he was cheering.

As above, I was of the opinion that the ball was in play regardless of markers etc. Sent them a tweet to ask the relevance of their point but of course got no response :rolleyes:

BoardsMember

Seve OB wrote: »

It happened to me before so I looked it up... It's only a new enough rule 4 yrs old or so. It's amazing how you are always learning the rules of golf by having little things happen, and not being 100% sure, you have to go and look them up.




I am only reading this thread now and was going to post that exact comment.

However, I did notice the commentator.. think it was Peter Allis (but not sure) made a statement that I didn't understand. He said something about DJ having already marked his ball so therefore it must be in play as he was cheering.

As above, I was of the opinion that the ball was in play regardless of markers etc. Sent them a tweet to ask the relevance of their point but of course got no response :rolleyes:

I wouldn't rely on Alliss for too much tbh

billy3sheets

So, on the green, can a ball be lifted and replaced multiple times?

1. In the same spot, with the marker in position?
2. In the same spot, with the marker lifted?
3. After the wind has moved it?

HighLine

billy3sheets wrote: »

So, on the green, can a ball be lifted and replaced multiple times?

1. In the same spot, with the marker in position?
2. In the same spot, with the marker lifted?
3. After the wind has moved it?

1) Yes, each time you lift the ball, you are effectively taking it out of play and when you replace it, it returns to being in play. Jim Furyk annoyingly does this the whole time.

2) You can not lift/move the ball without a marker being in place. You can however replace your ball, remove your marker and then subsequently, remark the ball and lift it again.

3) After the wind has moved the ball and it is at rest, you may now mark your ball at it's new position and lift it should you wish.

TrapperChamonix

I know some people use the Casino type markers so they can complete their reading of the putt before replacing the ball. Thus minimizing the risk of the wind moving the ball. The advantage of the large marker is that you can see it more clearly than a norm marker. Especially if you've gone the other side of the hole to read the putt.

alxmorgan

I use a poker chip marker. Some of the lads refer to it as the plate

Only issue with it is have to move it a lot more than a smaller marker and it has a much higher chance of being on someones line

Seve OB

TrapperChamonix wrote: »

I know some people use the Casino type markers so they can complete their reading of the putt before replacing the ball. Thus minimizing the risk of the wind moving the ball. The advantage of the large marker is that you can see it more clearly than a norm marker. Especially if you've gone the other side of the hole to read the putt.

I use a golf tee if I want to do that



otherwise I always use a proper golf ball marker as I don't want the wind lifting or blowing the likes of a coin etc... at least the ball marker is stuck in the ground, and you can push it down out of other peoples eye

HighLine

Poker chip markers should be kept in casinos. Stupidly big resulting in time wasted moving the marker anytime it's remotely near a line. A pet hate of mine.

Golfgraffix

Seve OB wrote: »

at least the ball marker is stuck in the ground, and you can push it down out of other peoples eye

Ouch ! you still won you know ? :P

pcasso

Interesting topic.
Has anyone got any idea what the ruling would be if the ball, having been marked but left in situ rolled against the marker because of a gust of wind.
Would a penalty incur.
More pertinently, am I being silly?:)

Redzah

HighLine wrote: »

Poker chip markers should be kept in casinos. Stupidly big resulting in time wasted moving the marker anytime it's remotely near a line. A pet hate of mine.

I use one with a smaller marker in the middle also that comes out magnetically, best of both worlds then. They're great for reading putts from reverse side and I'd argue that instead of wasting time, it speeds up play as I can read my putt from behind while others are putting but I may not be able to see a small marker to do this otherwise.

Also, they're funky looking.