Question about shaft stiffness and getting fitted

Seanf999

So I'm 17, swinging at about 110 (not trying to kill it) and I'm using Mizuno mx25s that are going sky high and tailing right at the end.. So high that I couldn't hit a 6 iron in a roofed driving range!
I decided to try out another iron (Mizuno jpx I think it was) and I used a tour stiff shaft.
The ball was going much straighter and i was hitting in a bit lower (about 10 feet lower then when I was skying it)
I then tried a stiff shaft (only slightly lighter then the tour)
Same as the tour bar this one was slightly more consistent and about 5 yards shorter..

So I don't know which I should be using i mean I'm 17, 5'8/9 hitting a 6 iron 160 yards a tour stiff seems a bit of an overkill..

I don't know should I get fitted as I'm a 18 handicapper ( hopefully 9 by September ) and I'm a good ball striker with irons but I moght grow a bit again so I could need refitting again!

The pro was saying getting fitted could be a good idea but I've no clue what I should be at to be honest.

SaveOurLyric

I wouldnt worry about it. Just focus on your game and see where it takes you. There is no good evidence that club fitting makes any practical difference, particularly at your level and if you are improving.
Just try to get to 9 if you can - but dont blame the clubs - it wont be them holding you back if you dont.

Seanf999

I realise that getting to 9 will either on me not my clubs (unless I decide to play with sticks) but the main issue is my current irons are tailing off at the end (by about 5-10 yards) even when I hit the spot on. Yet when I was hitting the tour stiff and stiff irons they were far more controlled.
+ considering I use a stiff flex driver (60 gram) I think I'll need to go stiffer on my irons..

Montgolfier

Granted a more flexible shaft will hit the ball higher, however if your hitting the roof in a driving range sounds like a lesson is money better spent. It's easy to get hung up on equipment but having a correct swing path in more important. Sounds like your opening the face with an over the top swing path, that's the only way to hit the ball that high. Get your path right and that 160yd 6 iron should become 180yds. Instead of a glancing blow you will be wrapping the club and all its weight around the ball.
Goodluck

John Divney

Those clubs are higher ball flights, but it's the swing that makes the real difference, you are most likely delivering loft at impact and the cavity just adds a bit.

110 is plenty of speed, so getting a lower ball flight should be the goal with swing,

Seanf999

How should I go about hitting it lower?.. I mean a lower loft allows for more spin off the face so I could just end up slicing it..
What about shaft? Stiffer or a specific type?..I think it could be time to get some new irons anyway because I've a ball size wear Mark on the pw..

I've a similar issue with my drivers that's a stiff shaft..

dan_ep82

Loads of different ways to add dynamic loft to a club face at impact, a pro could tell you after one swing, we/I would just be giving our best guesses on why your doing it. Move it back in your stance, get the handle in front of the club head and so on. A slice is produced from an open club face to path, you can hit a 1500rpm slice or a 6,000 rpm one.

Even what mont said about path, the same could be said about strike and so on, alot of different factors will effect your distance that aren't always blatantly obvious to your amateur golfer.

For 110 driver ss with a good strike and face angle/path 175 or so is a good carry in mild/warm weather but you may swing the irons slower

Seanf999

Cheers! I think I'll have to look into a lesson first before I go at anything else..

Even the spin off my driver is quite bad, I mean I carry it 250 or so but theres so much backspin that it either burrows into the ground or hopes backwards!
My normal short is a fade too so that doesn't help

ShivasIrons

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

There is no good evidence that club fitting makes any practical difference, particularly at your level and if you are improving.

What evidence do you have that club fitting makes no difference?

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-equipment/hot-list/2015-03/importance-of-driver-fitting-stachura

For an average player they are not good enough not to have fitted clubs.

For a golfer looking to improve it's important to have equipment in their hands that allows for most improvement.

Golfgraffix

Seanf999 wrote: »

Cheers! I think I'll have to look into a lesson first before I go at anything else..

Even the spin off my driver is quite bad, I mean I carry it 250 or so but theres so much backspin that it either burrows into the ground or hopes backwards!

I wouldn't be too worried, at 250 carry you are 45 yards past the average drive (including roll out ) I wouldn't be messing with that ability.

I am playing off 11 and am a reasonably good driver and my top end average of driving is 240, 250 drives off 18 is excellent.

J

Seanf999

Thanks, I mean I know it's only a few minor things that are stopping me from being a single figure handicap.. And that's why I'm hoping to drop from 18 to 9 by September

SaveOurLyric

ShivasIrons wrote: »

What evidence do you have that club fitting makes no difference?

1) The burden of evidence is the club fitting corner to back up claims that it makes any difference.

2) Club fitting claims generally are some variation of woolly unscientific statements like :

ShivasIrons wrote: »

For an average player they are not good enough not to have fitted clubs.

For a golfer looking to improve it's important to have equipment in their hands that allows for most improvement.

that are a) not scientific, and b) by being the norm in these discussions, do indeed suggest that there is no solid evidence.

Some, like the second one, are logically fully correct, and so have a superficial sense of reason, since we know that say a golfer having a screwdriver in his hands he would improve if he changed his tool to a golf club. Or, of course if I were too tee it up with a left handed, 2 inch longer than my current right handed clubs I would play worse than I do today. But it doesnt extend that if I were to refine, or club fit from my normal clubs that I would improve.
The whole idea of golf club fitting seems grounded on this type of quicksand to me. (No less than the manufacturers of the clubs themselves of which custom fitting is a niche refinement).

Interesting would be :
a) evidence of improved ball hitting, scoring, or handicap
b) a theoretical derivations ab initio that concludes that there should be a benefit
c) b backed up by a


For example, if it werent patent nonsense and we all know from experience that the following is rubbish, I could go peddling the idea that people cannot walk properly without custom made socks:

Hey, everbodies feet are different, we all walk differently, we all walk different distances and with different demands from each other every day. Surely just selecting socks on size (and bands of sizes 8-11 : cripes!) is madness. And we couldnt possible walk correctly. We must have a sock of the specific size thst suits us : say an 8.5. Not and 8 or a 8-9. Then foot width. And not just wide or medium. But a specific width to the mm. The arch shape. Material. Composition of fabric. We must measure your perspiration level to correctly no the fabric blend to use. Mr Saveourlyric, we have measured you and you need, 67% cotton, 16% lycra, 3% elasthane, and 14% angora wool. Without all this you will never walk at your best. So we will measure 34 parameters and have a pair of socks made for you.

Clearly garbage. Club fitting is not far from it.

spacecoyote

I think lessons are the wisest move for you before anything else alright based on what you are saying about your flight.

With a driver swing speed of 110 you should comfortably be hitting a 6 iron more than 160 yards.

A badly hit stock 6 iron vs a badly hit fitted 6 iron is still a badly hit iron

BigChap1759

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

1) The burden of evidence is the club fitting corner to back up claims that it makes any difference.

2) Club fitting claims generally are some variation of woolly unscientific statements like :


that are a) not scientific, and b) by being the norm in these discussions, do indeed suggest that there is no solid evidence.

Some, like the second one, are logically fully correct, and so have a superficial sense of reason, since we know that say a golfer having a screwdriver in his hands he would improve if he changed his tool to a golf club. Or, of course if I were too tee it up with a left handed, 2 inch longer than my current right handed clubs I would play worse than I do today. But it doesnt extend that if I were to refine, or club fit from my normal clubs that I would improve.
The whole idea of golf club fitting seems grounded on this type of quicksand to me. (No less than the manufacturers of the clubs themselves of which custom fitting is a niche refinement).

Interesting would be :
a) evidence of improved ball hitting, scoring, or handicap
b) a theoretical derivations ab initio that concludes that there should be a benefit
c) b backed up by a


For example, if it werent patent nonsense and we all know from experience that the following is rubbish, I could go peddling the idea that people cannot walk properly without custom made socks:

Hey, everbodies feet are different, we all walk differently, we all walk different distances and with different demands from each other every day. Surely just selecting socks on size (and bands of sizes 8-11 : cripes!) is madness. And we couldnt possible walk correctly. We must have a sock of the specific size thst suits us : say an 8.5. Not and 8 or a 8-9. Then foot width. And not just wide or medium. But a specific width to the mm. The arch shape. Material. Composition of fabric. We must measure your perspiration level to correctly no the fabric blend to use. Mr Saveourlyric, we have measured you and you need, 67% cotton, 16% lycra, 3% elasthane, and 14% angora wool. Without all this you will never walk at your best. So we will measure 34 parameters and have a pair of socks made for you.

Clearly garbage. Club fitting is not far from it.

You are rambling - you should read some of Tom Wishons articles and research before you rubbish club fitting based on assumptions

SaveOurLyric

BigChap1759 wrote: »

You are rambling - you should read some of Tom Wishons articles and research before you rubbish club fitting based on assumptions

I have read a couple of his books. I was unconvinced.

Something of the High Priest of the Church of Clubfitting about him to the believers.

BigChap1759

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

I have read a couple of his books. I was unconvinced.

Something of the High Priest of the Church of Clubfitting about him to the believers.

Interesting. So would you go as far as to say that, for example, shaft flex, club length are irrelevant to results and that any golfer should be able to play with any clubs? If not where do u draw the line? Genuinely interested and apologies for off topic.....

ShivasIrons

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

1) The burden of evidence is the club fitting corner to back up claims that it makes any difference.

2) Club fitting claims generally are some variation of woolly unscientific statements like :


that are a) not scientific, and b) by being the norm in these discussions, do indeed suggest that there is no solid evidence.

Some, like the second one, are logically fully correct, and so have a superficial sense of reason, since we know that say a golfer having a screwdriver in his hands he would improve if he changed his tool to a golf club. Or, of course if I were too tee it up with a left handed, 2 inch longer than my current right handed clubs I would play worse than I do today. But it doesnt extend that if I were to refine, or club fit from my normal clubs that I would improve.
The whole idea of golf club fitting seems grounded on this type of quicksand to me. (No less than the manufacturers of the clubs themselves of which custom fitting is a niche refinement).

Interesting would be :
a) evidence of improved ball hitting, scoring, or handicap
b) a theoretical derivations ab initio that concludes that there should be a benefit
c) b backed up by a


For example, if it werent patent nonsense and we all know from experience that the following is rubbish, I could go peddling the idea that people cannot walk properly without custom made socks:

Hey, everbodies feet are different, we all walk differently, we all walk different distances and with different demands from each other every day. Surely just selecting socks on size (and bands of sizes 8-11 : cripes!) is madness. And we couldnt possible walk correctly. We must have a sock of the specific size thst suits us : say an 8.5. Not and 8 or a 8-9. Then foot width. And not just wide or medium. But a specific width to the mm. The arch shape. Material. Composition of fabric. We must measure your perspiration level to correctly no the fabric blend to use. Mr Saveourlyric, we have measured you and you need, 67% cotton, 16% lycra, 3% elasthane, and 14% angora wool. Without all this you will never walk at your best. So we will measure 34 parameters and have a pair of socks made for you.

Clearly garbage. Club fitting is not far from it.

Let's take just a small bit from iron specifications, if we have one 6 iron which is 2 degrees upright, say 62.5 degrees and another which is 2 degrees flat, say 58.5 degrees, a golfer hits both clubs with a similar swing, the ball flight will be widely different with the two clubs, could be 20 yards between the two shots.

As a result it's vital for a golfer to be properly fitted for lie angle in irons.

If you don't believe this to be correct, explain why it isn't correct?

Montgolfier

Seanf999 wrote: »

Thanks, I mean I know it's only a few minor things that are stopping me from being a single figure handicap.. And that's why I'm hoping to drop from 18 to 9 by September

Before we get too heated about the pros and cons of clubfitting. Shaft stiffness won't help you become a single figure handicap in 6 months. Love the confidence though.

I do my own club fitting saves me a fortune anything you want to know in on d'internet. It's really not as hi tech as you are lead to believe.

It's a tough business too as when you buy a club then need to change the shaft, the price is doubled. Who can afford that? Besides it makes a great winter hobby.

SaveOurLyric

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Let's take just a small bit from iron specifications, if we have one 6 iron which is 2 degrees upright, say 62.5 degrees and another which is 2 degrees flat, say 58.5 degrees, a golfer hits both clubs with a similar swing, the ball flight will be widely different with the two clubs, could be 20 yards between the two shots.

As a result it's vital for a golfer to be properly fitted for lie angle in irons.

If you don't believe this to be correct, explain why it isn't correct?

I certainly dont believe that the conclusion stated follows from the proposition.



Firstly, how far you hit a 6 iron does not determine how well you will play golf. Hitting it 20 yards longer ? Just take a club less. Hitting it 20 yards shorter ? Just take a club more. So all else being equal, you will play exactly the same with both clubs which ever lie angle one you are given.

Secondly, I will not do the 3 dimensional trig on on the 20 yards difference, but while 4 deg loft difference may make approx a 20 yard carry difference to the average golfer, I dont think a 4 deg difference in lie equates to anything like that in change of effective loft.

Thirdly, it assumes the golfer hits both clubs with a similar swing. There is ample scope for this not to be the case: where he grips it will change the effective lie angle itself. How high or low he positions his hands will change the effective lie angle. And how high or low his hands are at impact will change the effective lie angle (mostly, but not always, players hands are higher at impact than at address). A golfer is not a mechanical machine, with variation in every swing, and further scope for swing changes.

Fourthly, assuming it is the case that you are assuming that the longer hit is the 'correct' club, how do you know that he is not a more reliable hitter, consistent distance wise, dispersionwise, and solid strike wise, with the shorter hitting club? Which if so would make him a better golfer with the shorter hitting club.

Fifthly, it assumes that there is such a thing as being 'properly' fitted. How is this defined ?

SaveOurLyric

BigChap1759 wrote: »

Interesting. So would you go as far as to say that, for example, shaft flex, club length are irrelevant to results and that any golfer should be able to play with any clubs?

The range offered in most golf shops will suit all but the most extreme body shapes, so more or less, yes.

Ciaranra

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

The range offered in most golf shops will suit all but the most extreme body shapes, so more or less, yes.

I would agree with you on irons but not woods i think flex comes into play

Redzah

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

The range offered in most golf shops will suit all but the most extreme body shapes, so more or less, yes.

I tend to agree with this. It is only extreme variances from the norm (e.g. 6'5 person or 5'1) where I see a major benefit to club fitting. I think it has become a big cash generator in the game and im unsure if major benefits are being reaped. For example, if you look at the website of any club fitter then you will see all the thanks you's and discussions on how john doe went from a 14 hcp to a 9 hcp. However, John Doe decided before going that he was going to invest heavily in golf that year both financially and in terms of time. I would argue that the time he most likely invested in practicing with his new clubs is the reason his handicap reduced but the clubs are more of a tangible item and thus he attributed it to that.

I also think there are major errors being made by some club fitters also. For example a friend of mine went from 2 degs upright at one club fitter to 2 degs flat at another

Redzah

Ciaranra wrote: »

I would agree with you on irons but not woods i think flex comes into play

Why?

See if for example you are referring to kick points on a shaft to control the flight of the ball then shouldn't some common sense and 5 mins research prevail to save yourself €200.

For example, my weak shot is a spinning high flight so I ensured I bought a driver that promotes a lower ball and more penetrating flight. 5 mins research and hitting a similar driver of a friend was enough for me, no need to spend a crap load getting fitted.

ShivasIrons

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

I certainly dont believe that the conclusion stated follows from the proposition.



Firstly, how far you hit a 6 iron does not determine how well you will play golf. Hitting it 20 yards longer ? Just take a club less. Hitting it 20 yards shorter ? Just take a club more. So all else being equal, you will play exactly the same with both clubs which ever lie angle one you are given.

Secondly, I will not do the 3 dimensional trig on on the 20 yards difference, but while 4 deg loft difference may make approx a 20 yard carry difference to the average golfer, I dont think a 4 deg difference in lie equates to anything like that in change of effective loft.

Thirdly, it assumes the golfer hits both clubs with a similar swing. There is ample scope for this not to be the case: where he grips it will change the effective lie angle itself. How high or low he positions his hands will change the effective lie angle. And how high or low his hands are at impact will change the effective lie angle (mostly, but not always, players hands are higher at impact than at address). A golfer is not a mechanical machine, with variation in every swing, and further scope for swing changes.

Fourthly, assuming it is the case that you are assuming that the longer hit is the 'correct' club, how do you know that he is not a more reliable hitter, consistent distance wise, dispersionwise, and solid strike wise, with the shorter hitting club? Which if so would make him a better golfer with the shorter hitting club.

Fifthly, it assumes that there is such a thing as being 'properly' fitted. How is this defined ?

Lie angle has it's biggest effect on dispersion and shape of the ball flight not distance so when two irons have different lie angles the end result will differ by left and right mainly.

You will not play exactly the same with two clubs if the lie angle differs, even one degree makes a difference.

ShivasIrons

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

The range offered in most golf shops will suit all but the most extreme body shapes, so more or less, yes.

So how do you know what clubs to pick?

Russman

Redzah wrote: »

I tend to agree with this. It is only extreme variances from the norm (e.g. 6'5 person or 5'1) where I see a major benefit to club fitting. I think it has become a big cash generator in the game and im unsure if major benefits are being reaped. For example, if you look at the website of any club fitter then you will see all the thanks you's and discussions on how john doe went from a 14 hcp to a 9 hcp. However, John Doe decided before going that he was going to invest heavily in golf that year both financially and in terms of time. I would argue that the time he most likely invested in practicing with his new clubs is the reason his handicap reduced but the clubs are more of a tangible item and thus he attributed it to that.

I also think there are major errors being made by some club fitters also. For example a friend of mine went from 2 degs upright at one club fitter to 2 degs flat at another

Exactly, and that's even before considering that manufacturers have different standards for lie and loft. I think for example Mizuno and Titleist irons' standard lie angles differ by 1.5 degrees.

ShivasIrons

Redzah wrote: »

I also think there are major errors being made by some club fitters also. For example a friend of mine went from 2 degs upright at one club fitter to 2 degs flat at another

Isn't this the case in every profession, some are better then others.

Some plumbers are excellent, some aren't, some people do the job themselves. Getting good advice is always the best option. How can it not be?

Redzah

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Isn't this the case in every profession, some are better then others.

Some plumbers are excellent, some aren't, some people do the job themselves. Getting good advice is always the best option. How can it not be?

Club fitting markets itself as being an exact science whereby the computer isn't wrong and tells the fitter exactly what needs to be done. Good advice is not what this business promotes, instead this business promotes the science of the machines which can't be wrong.

The world of plumbing doesn't operate this way, it is a manual business where human intelligence and trial and error is the norm.

SaveOurLyric

Ciaranra wrote: »

I would agree with you on irons but not woods i think flex comes into play

Shops do offer a variety of flex for those concerned about it, and think they need something of the ordinary.

SaveOurLyric

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Lie angle has it's biggest effect on dispersion and shape of the ball flight not distance so when two irons have different lie angles the end result will differ by left and right mainly.

But the lie of the club does not change from one shot to the next. Consistently left can be fine. Consistently right can be fine. So it doesnt matter which club he hits. His own swing variation will be far greater anyway,

ShivasIrons wrote: »

You will not play exactly the same with two clubs if the lie angle differs, even one degree makes a difference.

How do you know this? By how many shots will a person's handicap change if their clubs lies are 1deg 'wrong' ?

Montgolfier

Lie angle is not that important, your not a feckin robot. How can a weekend golfer expect to deliever the golf club the exact same way each swing. If that was the case we'd all be scratch golfers. When do you ever have a flat lie on a course.
Lie angles changing from fitter to fitter, hello like; could it be the person holding the club (food for thought), could it be your posture changing, could it be your shoes are different.
Your only talking about a degree or 2, have a little perspective. Your body/swing will adjust to what ever lie you are given.

Ciaranra

Redzah wrote: »

Why?

See if for example you are referring to kick points on a shaft to control the flight of the ball then shouldn't some common sense and 5 mins research prevail to save yourself €200.

For example, my weak shot is a spinning high flight so I ensured I bought a driver that promotes a lower ball and more penetrating flight. 5 mins research and hitting a similar driver of a friend was enough for me, no need to spend a crap load getting fitted.

I had r11s 2 years ago stiff shaft my mate had same driver but his was TP looked exactly the same,
But they were 2 different drivers the shaft in his was much stronger,
Never liked the stock shaft in any driver always felt they were weak,
Always used a stronger shaft,
I believe what you buy of shelf is aimed for the average golfer and what is average golfer handicap 18+
Could be wrong

Redzah

Ciaranra wrote: »

I had r11s 2 years ago stiff shaft my mate had same driver but his was TP looked exactly the same,
But they were 2 different drivers the shaft in his was much stronger,
Never liked the stock shaft in any driver always felt they were weak,
Always used a stronger shaft,
I believe what you buy of shelf is aimed for the average golfer and what is average golfer handicap 18+
Could be wrong

I don't agree with this, I'm a category 1 golfer and have never bought a fitted club, I've been on the trackman fitting machines alright and basically was told by a friend who was the pro that my numbers were the type of person the off the shelf clubs are made for such as height 5'10 (standard length and lie angle), swing speed 101 (standard stiff shaft).

Ciaranra

Got fitted myself other day swing speed 105 stiff shaft in sldr was 2 whipey for me gave me Tp shaft. So fitting confirmed for me stock shaft didnt suit. Everybody dif

Montgolfier

Ciaranra wrote: »

Got fitted myself other day swing speed 105 stiff shaft in sldr was 2 whipey for me gave me Tp shaft. So fitting confirmed for me stock shaft didnt suit. Everybody dif

Was the new shaft heavier in weight? For guys with a strong transition that can help with rythm and timing in the golf swing. I use a TP Adilia NV 75 (75g) stiff in my R11s and it works great.

Ciaranra

Got the Fujikura speeder 757 evolution TP s flex,
Sldr was 57 gram shaft massive fade,
Shaft I always used before changing was Matrix ozik Hd6 Tp stiff about 60grams great shaft,

Montgolfier

Ciaranra wrote: »

Got the Fujikura speeder 757 evolution TP s flex,
Sldr was 57 gram shaft massive fade,
Shaft I always used before changing was Matrix ozik Hd6 Tp stiff about 60grams great shaft,

Just looked it up it weighs 78grams. I like the fact that I can really lay into my drives and still hit it straight. Couldn't do that with a light shaft.