Embryo transfer in suckler herd

Seaba

Hi All,
Just wondering what peoples thoughts/experiences are of embryo transfer in suckler cows?

We have an excellent Limousin 4th calver - extremely quiet, fertile, lots of milk and brings excellent calves. Rather than hoping for a heifer every year for the next 6/7 years I was thinking of flushing her, every year if things went well, and possibly get 4/5 calves every year from her. If we got 2 heifers a year on average we would be delighted.

The price is €420 for the flushing, €80 for each embryo (if 5 embryos €400) plus €20 approx for each semen we get (€100) = €920 or €184 a cow. If we wanted to freeze embryos €30 each but we would prefer to put the embryos in fresh.

The price isn't a big issue as if we got 2/3 heifers and they proved to be lucky we'd make the money back in one year.

The one issue I'd have is that the Vet recommends that we use heifers as the recipient cows as there is a higher degree of conception. That's going to lead to sections as the cow always brings a decent sized calf at worst. I'd like to use 3rd/4th calvers.

Also if we inseminated 5 cows at once that would be a busy week 9 months later approx.

Would this flushing mess up the cycling of the donor cow if we decided after one year that it wasn't worth it? Would hate to mess that cow up and have to get rid of her.

Part of me, and Dad, don't want to 'mess' with cows but if this were to be reasonably successful and we got 50/50 heifer calves the quality of our suckler 'herd' (15) would rocket.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

blue5000

Seaba wrote: »

Hi All,
Just wondering what peoples thoughts/experiences are of embryo transfer in suckler cows?

We have an excellent Limousin 4th calver - extremely quiet, fertile, lots of milk and brings excellent calves. Rather than hoping for a heifer every year for the next 6/7 years I was thinking of flushing her, every year if things went well, and possibly get 4/5 calves every year from her. If we got 2 heifers a year on average we would be delighted.

The price is €420 for the flushing, €80 for each embryo (if 5 embryos €400) plus €20 approx for each semen we get (€100) = €920 or €184 a cow. If we wanted to freeze embryos €30 each but we would prefer to put the embryos in fresh.

The price isn't a big issue as if we got 2/3 heifers and they proved to be lucky we'd make the money back in one year.

The one issue I'd have is that the Vet recommends that we use heifers as the recipient cows as there is a higher degree of conception. That's going to lead to sections as the cow always brings a decent sized calf at worst. I'd like to use 3rd/4th calvers.

Also if we inseminated 5 cows at once that would be a busy week 9 months later approx.

Would this flushing mess up the cycling of the donor cow if we decided after one year that it wasn't worth it? Would hate to mess that cow up and have to get rid of her.

Part of me, and Dad, don't want to 'mess' with cows but if this were to be reasonably successful and we got 50/50 heifer calves the quality of our suckler 'herd' (15) would rocket.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

The vet is right. It would be easier to sychronize heifers as well. If you could do it so that they calve before the main bunch of cows you would be able to give them more time and attention at calving+ they'd be born earlier and would have a better chance themselves to calve at the beginning of the breeding season. Also the heifers carrying embryos would have extra time to go in calf by calving before the main herd.

tomieen jones

Seaba wrote: »

Hi All,
Just wondering what peoples thoughts/experiences are of embryo transfer in suckler cows?

We have an excellent Limousin 4th calver - extremely quiet, fertile, lots of milk and brings excellent calves. Rather than hoping for a heifer every year for the next 6/7 years I was thinking of flushing her, every year if things went well, and possibly get 4/5 calves every year from her. If we got 2 heifers a year on average we would be delighted.

The price is €420 for the flushing, €80 for each embryo (if 5 embryos €400) plus €20 approx for each semen we get (€100) = €920 or €184 a cow. If we wanted to freeze embryos €30 each but we would prefer to put the embryos in fresh.

The price isn't a big issue as if we got 2/3 heifers and they proved to be lucky we'd make the money back in one year.

The one issue I'd have is that the Vet recommends that we use heifers as the recipient cows as there is a higher degree of conception. That's going to lead to sections as the cow always brings a decent sized calf at worst. I'd like to use 3rd/4th calvers.

Also if we inseminated 5 cows at once that would be a busy week 9 months later approx.

Would this flushing mess up the cycling of the donor cow if we decided after one year that it wasn't worth it? Would hate to mess that cow up and have to get rid of her.

Part of me, and Dad, don't want to 'mess' with cows but if this were to be reasonably successful and we got 50/50 heifer calves the quality of our suckler 'herd' (15) would rocket.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

not economically worth doing unless she is of exceptional purebred lines in my opinion! The donars also have to be in exceptional condition health wise being prepared months in advance! Companies now come to you're farm and flush but there is better success letting them take the recipients off farm and doing the procedure at their own lab base! That's justmy take on it ass I was interested in this myself but concluded it was a safer bet to carry on with ai and stock bull! almost guaranteed a calf on the ground! And that's what buys the groceries

Genghis Cant

What about Sexed semen? I know the conception rates are lower than conventional non sexed but at least you've a heifer calf at end of it, all goin well.

The man in red and black

Better again, use sexed semen to inseminate as part of the flush for embryos. That way whatever embryos you do get would be almost all heifers.

I see no reason why it would interfere with the donor cows fertility. You are only superovulating her. Some protocols would suggest aborting the donor a few days/weeks after the flush as a precaution just in case she had a few embryos left in her that weren't taken out. It shouldn't happen in a well done flush but if she had a great response you could have some error and a few left. Leaving triplets in her could cause a big problem next year! (That is quite unlikely but just thinking of what your worst risk to the high genetic merit donor would be).

Lots of people would do a flush early in the year and then breed the donor herself. I think it should be done early as suggested above so that the heifers calve early and then the donor is able to get in calf herself also.

For one reason or another some cows respond better to flushing than others. The thing is though that a cow that responds well is likely to consistently respond well. So if she gave a load of good quality embryos this year you might be tempted to try again this year or next so the earlier in the breeding season you do it the better so she is not really late next year.

pajero12

Seaba wrote: »

Hi All,
Just wondering what peoples thoughts/experiences are of embryo transfer in suckler cows?

We have an excellent Limousin 4th calver - extremely quiet, fertile, lots of milk and brings excellent calves. Rather than hoping for a heifer every year for the next 6/7 years I was thinking of flushing her, every year if things went well, and possibly get 4/5 calves every year from her. If we got 2 heifers a year on average we would be delighted.

The price is €420 for the flushing, €80 for each embryo (if 5 embryos €400) plus €20 approx for each semen we get (€100) = €920 or €184 a cow. If we wanted to freeze embryos €30 each but we would prefer to put the embryos in fresh.

The price isn't a big issue as if we got 2/3 heifers and they proved to be lucky we'd make the money back in one year.

The one issue I'd have is that the Vet recommends that we use heifers as the recipient cows as there is a higher degree of conception. That's going to lead to sections as the cow always brings a decent sized calf at worst. I'd like to use 3rd/4th calvers.

Also if we inseminated 5 cows at once that would be a busy week 9 months later approx.

Would this flushing mess up the cycling of the donor cow if we decided after one year that it wasn't worth it? Would hate to mess that cow up and have to get rid of her.

Part of me, and Dad, don't want to 'mess' with cows but if this were to be reasonably successful and we got 50/50 heifer calves the quality of our suckler 'herd' (15) would rocket.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

While I understand where your coming from, You have to remember 5 grade 1 embryos would be considered a very very successful flush, Then if you do get good results, There is still no guarantee that the implantation will be successful, While I'm not exactly sure of the success rate from fresh embryos is, The Success rate with frozen embryos is roughly 50-50.

Also with regards the semen, You don't inseminate for each individual egg, The technician will give you a programme, This will tell you when to inject her with the drug, but it will also tell you when to inseminate her, Depending on the programme It will usually be twice.

Does the price include the drug? If it doesnt your talking about an extra 140-180 depending on where you get it.

With regards to the heifers, We found that we had the best success with Recipients coming off their own natural heat, I.E Not using cidrs and estrumate.
When we see a heifer or cow coming in heat, We'd Implant a frozen embryo 7 days later. Now some people will disagree with this but from my own experience it's what has worked best for me.

I wouldn't worry about messing with her own cycle, there should be no problems returning to heat afterwards.

While I realise I sound like I'm being very negative about the whole thing, I'm not. I've had a range of successes with flushing from 8 perfect embryos to 12 unfertilised eggs(useless) to no eggs atall.It's just down to how the cow takes to the programme and also an awful lot of luck.

Best of luck with it if you do decide to go for it though.

Seaba

Thanks for all the replies. Apologies I am only getting to reply now but I got away for the weekend with the missus, minus the kids!

tomieen jones wrote: »

not economically worth doing unless she is of exceptional purebred lines in my opinion! The donars also have to be in exceptional condition health wise being prepared months in advance!
That's justmy take on it ass I was interested in this myself but concluded it was a safer bet to carry on with ai and stock bull! almost guaranteed a calf on the ground! And that's what buys the groceries

Didn't realise there was so much preparation although the Vet did say it was time consuming with a big emphasis on animal husbandry.

Genghis Cant wrote: »

What about Sexed semen? I know the conception rates are lower than conventional non sexed but at least you've a heifer calf at end of it, all goin well.

Forgot about this! Ya, will definitely get onto the AI man and see what he has in this area.

The man in red and black wrote: »

Better again, use sexed semen to inseminate as part of the flush for embryos. That way whatever embryos you do get would be almost all heifers.

I see no reason why it would interfere with the donor cows fertility. You are only superovulating her. Some protocols would suggest aborting the donor a few days/weeks after the flush as a precaution just in case she had a few embryos left in her that weren't taken out.

Lots of people would do a flush early in the year and then breed the donor herself. I think it should be done early as suggested above so that the heifers calve early and then the donor is able to get in calf herself also.

Good thinking! If we do go for it I will mention this to the Vet.
The one thing I don't want to do is use heifers as the recipients. They will all have to be sectioned if the calf is anything like the ones the donor cow has calved so far. I realise this will reduce the possibility of conception.

pajero12 wrote: »

While I understand where your coming from, You have to remember 5 grade 1 embryos would be considered a very very successful flush, Then if you do get good results, There is still no guarantee that the implantation will be successful, While I'm not exactly sure of the success rate from fresh embryos is, The Success rate with frozen embryos is roughly 50-50.

Also with regards the semen, You don't inseminate for each individual egg, The technician will give you a programme, This will tell you when to inject her with the drug, but it will also tell you when to inseminate her, Depending on the programme It will usually be twice.

Does the price include the drug? If it doesnt your talking about an extra 140-180 depending on where you get it.

With regards to the heifers, We found that we had the best success with Recipients coming off their own natural heat, I.E Not using cidrs and estrumate.
When we see a heifer or cow coming in heat, We'd Implant a frozen embryo 7 days later. Now some people will disagree with this but from my own experience it's what has worked best for me.


While I realise I sound like I'm being very negative about the whole thing, I'm not. I've had a range of successes with flushing from 8 perfect embryos to 12 unfertilised eggs(useless) to no eggs atall.It's just down to how the cow takes to the programme and also an awful lot of luck.

Best of luck with it if you do decide to go for it though.

Thanks for all the advice.
Yes, the price I quoted above included the drugs.

I'll have a word with Dad and the vet again. Great to get some advice from people who have also thought of doing it and those who have done it.
Thanks again.

pajero12

Seaba wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies.
Thanks for all the advice.
Yes, the price I quoted above included the drugs.

I'll have a word with Dad and the vet again. Great to get some advice from people who have also thought of doing it and those who have done it.
Thanks again.

Well thats not a bad price atall, If you have any more questions with regards to the process or anything then feel free to ask.