water flow up hill

jd06

Hi , hoping to join glas scheme but I have to fence off all streams which mesns no drinking point's
is there any simple way of getting de water out of de stream onto the bank and into a water trough
The stream is 4 ft under ground level
I cant get electric power to it either
Thanks

gctest50

a ram pump maybe ? :




http://www.clemson.edu/irrig/equip/ram.htm <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpClMTWtqXg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9W0zx2D7aU

Common Problems

The most common problems that prevent a ram pump from operating:

(1) The swing check valve (valve #4) must be the same size as the drive pipe and the tee (tee #2) it is attached to.

(2) The drive pipe is too long or too short. For a 1.25 inch (3.2 cm) drive pipe that means no shorter than 15.6 feet (4.8 meters), and no longer than 104 feet (31.8 meters). Too short of a drive pipe may not allow the pressure wave to develop; too long of a pipe will allow successive pressure waves to interfere with one another. Use the equation provided above to find appropriate lengths for other pipe sizes.

(3) A garden hose is supplying the test installation. The flow velocity from the hose into the drive pipe will create pressure on the waste valve. The best test setup is to plumb the drive pipe into a bucket or a livestock water tank, and keep that filled with water. Sticking a hose into the drive pipe destroys the water hammer wave.

(4) The air has not been purged from the system. Usually the waste valve flapper (valve #4) must be manually pushed from 20 to 50 times to get the pump started. 100 times, though, is too much – something’s wrong.

(5) The valve on the discharge side is open (valve #7). This valve should be closed while the pump is being started – the pump will run 30+ seconds with it closed after it starts, building pressure. After the pump starts running, slowly open that valve. Make sure, though, that at least 10 psi (0.7 bar or 69 kPa) of back pressure is maintained on the pump. It will not work with less.

(6) There is not enough elevation drop from the drive pipe inlet to the ram pump. 5 feet (1.5 m) of elevation drop is recommended. The pump may work with only 4 feet (1.2 m) of elevation drop. It will not work well or at all with less. (Note that if the pipe is plumbed into a pool of water, the elevation difference is taken from the surface of the water to the ram pump, not from the location of the drive pipe inlet.)

(7) There is an air leak in the pressure chamber. Larger PVC pipe sizes ( 2 inches or 5 cm and larger) require the use of a PVC primer to soften and clean the PVC before the PVC cement is used. Failure to use the primer may prevent the joint from joining properly and allow air to escape or the joint to come apart. Primer is usually not needed on 1.5 inch (3.8 cm) and smaller pipes.

(8) A PVC swing check valve is used for the waste valve (#4) instead of a brass swing check valve. PVC or plastic swing check valves probably work well in normal plumbing applications, but in the case of the ram pump the "flapper" does not weigh enough to drop promptly or quickly when the pressure wave dissipates. You may get the ram to operate with a PVC swing check valve, but it will be much less efficient and provide much less flow and lift.

(9) A swing check valve is used for the in-line check valve (#5) instead of a spring-loaded check valve. This can work, but the spring-loaded check valve has a better seal and should provide a more efficient operation.

mickdw

jd06 wrote: »

Hi , hoping to join glas scheme but I have to fence off all streams which mesns no drinking point's
is there any simple way of getting de water out of de stream onto the bank and into a water trough
The stream is 4 ft under ground level
I cant get electric power to it either
Thanks

If your land had a point lower than the stream water level, you could probably set up something.

Dozer Dave

Unless your living on the moon gravity has you beaten.

Mad4simmental

We have one of these nose pumps at a field with no power drawing up from a well about 3M. It would work for you to id say.

jd06

Mad4simmental wrote: »

We have one of these nose pumps at a field with no power drawing up from a well about 3M. It would work for you to id say.

Thanks for that
any idea where or how much would one cost.
any chance if a pic of your set up
im not sure what de set uo in the stream is like or what length of pipe or how far up de stream it needs to be
Thanks

djmc

A ram pump or solar water pump
Try eBay Amazon etc.
A ram pump could be home made job as well
Google diagrams online.

Jb1989

Mad4simmental wrote: »

We have one of these nose pumps at a field with no power drawing up from a well about 3M. It would work for you to id say.

Yip 'pasture pump' is your man

Username John

jd06 wrote: »

Thanks for that
any idea where or how much would one cost.
any chance if a pic of your set up
im not sure what de set uo in the stream is like or what length of pipe or how far up de stream it needs to be
Thanks

http://www.connachtagri.ie/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=vmj_naru.tpl&product_id=24&category_id=14&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=6

I have a feeling they are not the cheapest to be dealing with, but gives you an idea of price anyways...

poor farmer

Dozer Dave wrote: »

Unless your living on the moon gravity has you beaten.

Maybe not ,did you ever hear of "The seven wonders of Fore"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3GDSADXf4I

tabby aspreme

Have a small water ram here , spend about 30€ a year on rubber valve washers for it and it pumps about 500 gallons a day, take a look at the Green and Carter website for information

onyerbikepat

tabby aspreme wrote: »

Have a small water ram here , spend about 30€ a year on rubber valve washers for it and it pumps about 500 gallons a day, take a look at the Green and Carter website for information

What kind of fall do you have to the pump? It says you need at least 5 feet in the posts above.

djmc

A lot of YouTube videos on how to build your own ram pump
Would be a cheap option if you had the time

Mad4simmental

jd06 wrote: »

Thanks for that
any idea where or how much would one cost.
any chance if a pic of your set up
im not sure what de set uo in the stream is like or what length of pipe or how far up de stream it needs to be
Thanks

I'll put up a pic for you later. I have no idea of the cost I'd say this one is around as long as I am.

Dozer Dave

poor farmer wrote: »

Maybe not ,did you ever hear of "The seven wonders of Fore"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3GDSADXf4I

Anyone that believes they are true are living in cloud cuckoo land.

KatyMac

I have the same problem. Pasture pumps are very expensive. Are they easy to move? I have 5 places that will need water and if I have to get 5 pumps at €310+ each it will add up. I was thinking of connecting the square tanks to drinkers and using a battery operated pump to fill them every couple of days - daft idea???

Dozer Dave

A low voltage pumping station with solar charging would be a good solution.

the_blue_oval

jd06 wrote: »

Hi , hoping to join glas scheme but I have to fence off all streams which mesns no drinking point's
is there any simple way of getting de water out of de stream onto the bank and into a water trough
The stream is 4 ft under ground level
I cant get electric power to it either
Thanks

if you put a barrel or a tank down in the stream to act as a reservoir, and put a pipe as an outlet at the bottom of the tank the pressure from the volume of water in the tank will pump the water up hill if its set up right.
might need to gradually bring the pipe up across the bank so its not too steep.


we did it in a similar enough situation last summer and it worked a treat, had it supplying water to about 70 cattle. whole key to it is to have a a large enough tank as a reservoir. we used a decent sized concrete tank so that there was always water in it so they wouldnt shift it when levels in the trough were low as the supply was quite slow. but they were never without water with it.

takes a bit of time to set it up right, but it does work and only cost is the trough, piping and a barrel/tank to use as a reservoir.

onyerbikepat

the_blue_oval wrote: »

if you put a barrel or a tank down in the stream to act as a reservoir, and put a pipe as an outlet at the bottom of the tank the pressure from the volume of water in the tank will pump the water up hill if its set up right.
might need to gradually bring the pipe up across the bank so its not too steep.....

How high up from the top of the water level in the stream can you pump it.

dunlopwellies

I think Connacht Agri had a type of pump a couple of years ago. I cannot remember the name but it was like a diaphragm pump that used the inertia of the water flowing in to pump the pump.
I have googled it a few times but no joy. Anyone know of this type?

tomieen jones

dunlopwellies wrote: »

I think Connacht Agri had a type of pump a couple of years ago. I cannot remember the name but it was like a diaphragm pump that used the inertia of the water flowing in to pump the pump.
I have googled it a few times but no joy. Anyone know of this type?

That's a ram pump I think

Dozer Dave

the_blue_oval wrote: »

if you put a barrel or a tank down in the stream to act as a reservoir, and put a pipe as an outlet at the bottom of the tank the pressure from the volume of water in the tank will pump the water up hill if its set up right.
might need to gradually bring the pipe up across the bank so its not too steep.

The water will not flow any higher than what the top of the water level in the tank is. The top water level in your tank must have been higher than your troughs so in reality where the pick up to feed your tank would have done and building the tank was a waste of time.

tabby aspreme

onyerbikepat wrote: »

What kind of fall do you have to the pump? It says you need at least 5 feet in the posts above.

There is about 3 ft fall in the drive pipe over a distance of40 ft , the drive pipe is gun barrel as its important not to have any give each time the valve shuts

jd06

Thanks for all the replies,if any of ye take a few pics. Throw them up. Ta

the_blue_oval

Dozer Dave wrote: »

The water will not flow any higher than what the top of the water level in the tank is. The top water level in your tank must have been higher than your troughs so in reality where the pick up to feed your tank would have done and building the tank was a waste of time.

barrel (resevoir) is well below the level of the trough.

we have the barrel set down in the bottom a drain, the water supply into this tank is from a drain pipe bringing water out from a spring in the field which never dries up, so there is a constant flow of water into the barrel.

there is a 20m or so slight downhill run (natural flow of the drain)in the pipe before it is brought over the top of the drain which would help. the top of the barrel is is about 3ft below the bottom of the trough..

its working perfect for us anyway. should be a way of managing to get a similar system working in the OP's situation.

should be able to take a few pics at some stage over the next week so i will throw them up if i remember.

onyerbikepat

If you are talking about falls in water, you work off the top level of the water.:rolleyes:

Markcheese

the_blue_oval wrote: »

barrel (resevoir) is well below the level of the trough.

we have the barrel set down in the bottom a drain, the water supply into this tank is from a drain pipe bringing water out from a spring in the field which never dries up, so there is a constant flow of water into the barrel.

there is a 20m or so slight downhill run (natural flow of the drain)in the pipe before it is brought over the top of the drain which would help. the top of the barrel is is about 3ft below the bottom of the trough..


its working perfect for us anyway. should be a way of managing to get a similar system working in the OP's situation.


should be able to take a few pics at some stage over the next week so i will throw them up if i remember.

Would that be a syphon ? Ie- as the ball valve opens to let water out ,the only place to replace the water is from the tank in the stream ??

On the pasture pumps if you think you need 5 or so, would it be worth going on line and seeing how much it'd cost ( plus shipping) to get them from else where ? In fairness they'd be a life time job - and you wouldn't need to add water troughs to the price-

Dozer Dave

Water finds it own levels, the_blue_oval you must be wrong with your levels.

rangler1

Connaught agri are advertising a solar water pump in the comic this week, sounds like the solution. set up a big tank so that it'd feed drinkers by gravity, you'd need some sort of a filter between the storage tank and the drinker or the ballcock'd break your heart.

just checked the price.....€2700 :eek:

mickdw

Dozer Dave wrote: »

Water finds it own levels, the_blue_oval you must be wrong with your levels.

Static or still water finds it own level.
Flowing water will have energy and will reach a level above where the water is flowing if captured correctly.

Dozer Dave

mickdw wrote: »

Flowing water will have energy and will reach a level above where the water is flowing if captured correctly.

It will and that is measured by bar pressure, say if a pipe has a fall out of a tank of 10 metres it will have one bar pressure. Let it off into another pipe and 1 bar pressure will send it back up 10 metres. Energy cannot be created or destroyed.

Genghis Cant

Dozer Dave wrote: »

It will and that is measured by bar pressure, say if a pipe has a fall out of a tank of 10 metres it will have one bar pressure. Let it off into another pipe and 1 bar pressure will send it back up 10 metres. Energy cannot be created or destroyed.

It can only be changed from one form to another...........Albert was no fool!

onyerbikepat

Bernoulli was the man actually. If you tap into the flow of the water directly you can get a greater pressure. It's known as 'Velocity Head'. Don't know how practical it is to do though.

Dozer Dave

Tapping into the pipe gives you the total head of pressure, i.e static and velocity head.

mickdw

Dozer Dave wrote: »

Tapping into the pipe gives you the total head of pressure, i.e static and velocity head.

We were talking about flow in an open channel or stream.
The fact remains that where you have a flow of water in an open stream, Tapping into the stream in a manner that will capture the Energy in the moving water will allow water to flow to a level above that of the stream at the take off point.

Dozer Dave

mickdw wrote: »

We were talking about flow in an open channel or stream.
The fact remains that where you have a flow of water in an open stream, Tapping into the stream in a manner that will capture the Energy in the moving water will allow water to flow to a level above that of the stream at the take off point.

You are correct but you would want one hell of a flow rate. This is called dynamic pressure, it is a defined property of a moving flow of gas or liquid and can be expressed as

pd = 1/2 ρ v2 (1)
where
pd = dynamic pressure (Pa)
ρ = density of fluid (kg/m3)
v = velocity (m/s)

Your average flowing river or stream would be 3-5m/s. Density of water @ 20 degree as an example is 1000 kg/m3.

pd = 1/2 (1000 kg/m3) (5 m/s)2
= 12500 Pa
= 12.5 kPa

12.5kpa is 0.13 bar. You would need the flow rate to be around 14.5 m/3 for it to be 1 bar which is the head of water it can push 1 metre.

GY A1

1 bar = 10 m head height

Dozer Dave wrote: »

You are correct but you would want one hell of a flow rate. This is called dynamic pressure, it is a defined property of a moving flow of gas or liquid and can be expressed as

pd = 1/2 ρ v2 (1)
where
pd = dynamic pressure (Pa)
ρ = density of fluid (kg/m3)
v = velocity (m/s)

Your average flowing river or stream would be 3-5m/s. Density of water @ 20 degree as an example is 1000 kg/m3.

pd = 1/2 (1000 kg/m3) (5 m/s)2
= 12500 Pa
= 12.5 kPa

12.5kpa is 0.13 bar. You would need the flow rate to be around 14.5 m/3 for it to be 1 bar which is the head of water it can push 1 metre.

Dozer Dave

GY A1 wrote: »

1 bar = 10 m head height

Your correct made mistake in editing last post

Basically a river/stream will have on average 0.13 bar pressure which would only push water up hill 1 metre. Was even being generous allowing it to have 5m/s.

Dozer Dave

One would have to take the losses into account also i.e pressure losses in pipework.

ford 5600

KatyMac wrote: »

I have the same problem. Pasture pumps are very expensive. Are they easy to move? I have 5 places that will need water and if I have to get 5 pumps at €310+ each it will add up. I was thinking of connecting the square tanks to drinkers and using a battery operated pump to fill them every couple of days - daft idea???

I have 3 Lister pasture pumps. The 1st one could be 45 years old, got 1 diapraghm to the best of my knowledge, no idea what it cost new . 2nd one bought about 10 years ago, cost 340 as far I remember. 3rd one I bought last October off DoneDeal for 80 euro. I see that the place I got it is up for public auction shortly.
Originally , I worked just the one. It is bolted to 2 bits of railway sleepers about 3feet long, and moved it in the transport box, nothe end of the world if you are only doing it a couple of times a year. The outfarm where I use it is 2/3s at one side of the road, 1/3 the other. Now, I have it paddocked both bits in 4 divisions. The bigger bit has a well , more or less in the middle. the paddocks all meet at the well. So by moving a small bit of wire each time the cattle are moved, the pump stays in the one place.
At the other side of the road, there is a stream at each side. It is also divided in quarters. I used to move it from one stream to the other, now I will be able toleave a pump where it is needed. Am grazing bullocks and heifers separately now so usually have stock in both fields.
Another way of looking at the OPs problem is, if you get say 1500 a year, by keeping stock out of the river, you could buy 5 pasture pumps from the money in year 1, and you would be in profit after that.
My reason for keeping stock out of rivers, was ease of fencing, plus if every body kept their stock out of rivers to drink, TB mightn't be half the problem it is.

poor farmer

ford 5600 wrote: »

I have 3 Lister pasture pumps. The 1st one could be 45 years old, got 1 diapraghm to the best of my knowledge, no idea what it cost new . 2nd one bought about 10 years ago, cost 340 as far I remember. 3rd one I bought last October off DoneDeal for 80 euro. I see that the place I got it is up for public auction shortly.
Originally , I worked just the one. It is bolted to 2 bits of railway sleepers about 3feet long, and moved it in the transport box, nothe end of the world if you are only doing it a couple of times a year. The outfarm where I use it is 2/3s at one side of the road, 1/3 the other. Now, I have it paddocked both bits in 4 divisions. The bigger bit has a well , more or less in the middle. the paddocks all meet at the well. So by moving a small bit of wire each time the cattle are moved, the pump stays in the one place.
At the other side of the road, there is a stream at each side. It is also divided in quarters. I used to move it from one stream to the other, now I will be able toleave a pump where it is needed. Am grazing bullocks and heifers separately now so usually have stock in both fields.
Another way of looking at the OPs problem is, if you get say 1500 a year, by keeping stock out of the river, you could buy 5 pasture pumps from the money in year 1, and you would be in profit after that.
My reason for keeping stock out of rivers, was ease of fencing, plus if every body kept their stock out of rivers to drink, TB mightn't be half the problem it is.

How many cattle would one pasture pump supply water too.I know it would depend on the weather and the type of stock.
Just a rough guide.

ford 5600

poor farmer wrote: »

How many cattle would one pasture pump supply water too.I know it would depend on the weather and the type of stock.
Just a rough guide.

I have had 45 yearlings on 1 , but 25-30 would be far more realistic. If it was a hot day , there will be a mosh around it, pucking and fighting. Then maybe the pipe gets pulled off the back of it due to this pushing, and they have no water at all. A sound base to pit it on, with the base having a slight fall back, is ideal. That way, as a first timer drinks the water, they follow it and unknowingly push and pump the water themselves. If you had 1 animal on the lot that had previous experience of using one, it speeds up the learning process, but I haven't seen a lot of trouble that way.
I probably didn't have a heavy enough piece of timber on one of mine but that was to make it easier to move when I had only the one. If it could be put permanently somewhere, they will never pull off the pipe from pushing it around.

Green farmer

Any version of pasture pump, that sheep could push ?

jd06

ford 5600 wrote: »

I have had 45 yearlings on 1 , but 25-30 would be far more realistic. If it was a hot day , there will be a mosh around it, pucking and fighting. Then maybe the pipe gets pulled off the back of it due to this pushing, and they have no water at all. A sound base to pit it on, with the base having a slight fall back, is ideal. That way, as a first timer drinks the water, they follow it and unknowingly push and pump the water themselves. If you had 1 animal on the lot that had previous experience of using one, it speeds up the learning process, but I haven't seen a lot of trouble that way.
I probably didn't have a heavy enough piece of timber on one of mine but that was to make it easier to move when I had only the one. If it could be put permanently somewhere, they will never pull off the pipe from pushing it around.

Thats great info thanks
if your passing some day with de phone would ya take a pic
I'd like to see the pipe set up in de drain thanks