€30m for Cork stadium withheld.

Lambofdave

€30m for Cork stadium withheld as plan dubbed 'overly optimistic'

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/30m-for-cork-stadium-withheld-as-plan-dubbed-overly-optimistic-31126094.html

Why does it take till now when the work has started to figure this out?

AugustusMinimus

Lambofdave wrote: »

€30m for Cork stadium withheld as plan dubbed 'overly optimistic'

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/30m-for-cork-stadium-withheld-as-plan-dubbed-overly-optimistic-31126094.html

Why does it take till now when the work has started to figure this out?

Is this actually an April fools joke published a week late ?. Are Fine Gael trying to finish off their party in Cork with all their anti Cork policies ?

Pablo Escobar

I've been saying this for ages. The cost-benefit cannot add up.

BUNK1982

I'm not sure how i feel about it.

On the one hand I think that Cork City should have 30k+ capacity stadium but on the other hand, I'm not overly impressed with the plans that the GAA have put forward.

It will be interesting to see how this one plays out coming up to an election and all...

The_Banker

Frank should have questions to answer here also, not just Fine Gael.

Nash Bridges

If you read the newspaper piece this seems to be entirely a County Board cock up rather than a political mistake. The dept of public expenditure seems to be prudent with public spending for once, which is a good thing.

A cost-benefit analysis prepared by the Cork County Board was not up to scratch.

• it did not present an adequate analysis of potential costs and benefits over the lifetime of the stadium.
  
• No information was provided on certain ongoing costs, such as maintenance of the stadium.
  
• Estimates provided in the county board's report about benefits for local businesses and tourism also required "further clarification to test their robustness

For anyone who knows how the Cork County Board operate none of this is surprising.

Milly33

they are such a bunch of tools...Why are they starting works on it then if they aren't getting all the funds to fund it... I kinda disagree with the revamp to the extent that they are doing it, but I would agree something needs to be done there..

Were they taking the piss when they said they were going to do more works on the road where they took the roundie bout away?

farmerjj

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Is this actually an April fools joke published a week late ?. Are Fine Gael trying to finish off their party in Cork with all their anti Cork policies ?

No its not a April fools.

Outkast_IRE

Mountain being made out of a molehill here i think.

Really its just a case of them putting a bit more time and effort into the figures and they will get the money.

Essentially the lads in dublin dont want the blame if it all goes tits up, so they force the county board into doing a good analysis and if it all doesnt work out in the end, then its because the county board fudged the figures.

Nothing wrong with it, it is always better to have an in depth analysis rather than a half assed one, and how you could submit a cost plan and not include annual maintenance is beyond me.

Pablo Escobar

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Mountain being made out of a molehill here i think.

Really its just a case of them putting a bit more time and effort into the figures and they will get the money.

Essentially the lads in dublin dont want the blame if it all goes tits up, so they force the county board into doing a good analysis and if it all doesnt work out in the end, then its because the county board fudged the figures.

Nothing wrong with it, it is always better to have an in depth analysis rather than a half assed one, and how you could submit a cost plan and not include annual maintenance is beyond me.

I'm not sure it's that simple. It would be outrageous to give that much funding to such an inept plan. The funding will have to be majorly reduced if they're forced into a full cost-benefit analysis.

CHealy

Its 70 million Euro for basically a new stand and an astro out the back. It should have never been aloud get this far. Any other European country the government would force the hand for a municipal stadium to be built, a 40,000 seater modern ground that can cater to all sports codes, concerts and events, not a stadium that will be full once every two years if they are lucky.

The old dump site would be ideal for this. Loads of space, plenty of parking room, great road network and public transport, and its not too far from the city center either. But sure that would be the right thing to do.

namloc1980

CHealy wrote: »

Its 70 million Euro for basically a new stand and an astro out the back. It should have never been aloud get this far. Any other European country the government would force the hand for a municipal stadium to be built, a 40,000 seater modern ground that can cater to all sports codes, concerts and events, not a stadium that will be full once every two years if they are lucky.

The old dump site would be ideal for this. Loads of space, plenty of parking room, great road network and public transport, and its not too far from the city center either. But sure that would be the right thing to do.

A municipal stadium for whom exactly? Aside from the issue of the pitch dimensions of a GAA pitch versus soccer/rugby requirements who exactly would use a 40k municipal stadium? Munster Rugby have a new stadium in Limerick more than suitable for their needs and are upgrading Musgrave Park for smaller games. Cork City have the use of Turner's Cross and wouldn't use a large 40k stadium in their wildest dreams.

The GAA plans aren't great but this talk of a municipal stadium is even worse with no basis in reality.

As for the "every other European country" comment. There is a large movement away from the municipal stadiums that were built in the 70s and 80s not only in Europe but around the world as they turned out to be wastes of time. Municipal stadiums try to accommodate everyones needs but in the end don't suit anyone as they compromise too much.

Outkast_IRE

CHealy wrote: »

Its 70 million Euro for basically a new stand and an astro out the back. It should have never been aloud get this far. Any other European country the government would force the hand for a municipal stadium to be built, a 40,000 seater modern ground that can cater to all sports codes, concerts and events, not a stadium that will be full once every two years if they are lucky.

The old dump site would be ideal for this. Loads of space, plenty of parking room, great road network and public transport, and its not too far from the city center either. But sure that would be the right thing to do.

The old dump site, i would imagine will not have anything major be built on top of it for decades if not more, there will be issues with gases etc on that site for a long time to come and i would imagine major structural foundation headaches.

Jimmy Bottles

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

The old dump site, i would imagine will not have anything major be built on top of it for decades if not more, there will be issues with gases etc on that site for a long time to come and i would imagine major structural foundation headaches.

Tramore Valley Park is presently being built on this site.

Outkast_IRE

Jimmy Bottles wrote: »

Tramore Valley Park is presently being built on this site.

Yes which uses the majority of the site as an outdoor amenity, needing no real structural foundations etc.

Tramore Valley park is mostly a landscaping project.

rebs23

It's amazing this problem has come to the surface after the big announcement from the Government to help fund the project. You would think this would have been ironed out at Departmental level before any announcement.

Also seems bizarre that a lot of projects in Cork that require Government funding are held up due to "funding issues" while the Gort to Tuam motorway gets the go ahead, LUAS connector, Enniscorthy by pass, etc, etc have no such issues. Then we look at the funding for Shannon Airport deal, Limerick to Galway railway, Limerick to Rosslare, the list goes on and on.

Meanwhile in Cork .............. we continue to struggle to get public investment, the region does not get employment grants for IDA backed investments, the IDA policy of 50% investments outside of Cork and Dublin means we have to compete with Dublin, NAMA only invests in office development in Dublin, the IDA will soon be building advance facilities for inward investors in every regional city except Cork, etc, etc.

And lets look at all those cost/benefit analysis for sporting facilities in Dublin that recieved public funding to the tune of over €500 million, Croke Park, Landsdowe Road, National Sports Campus???

Meanwhile in Cork .... work still hasn't started on what will be the only modern stadium in our city because someone is messing around.
Rant over but just pissed off the way we are being treated for Public Investments and at this stage it is becoming clear IDA backed investments.

mikeym

What happens if the redevelopment doesnt go ahead?

Will Pairc Ui Chaoimh be reopened?

The_Banker

mikeym wrote: »

What happens if the redevelopment doesnt go ahead?

Will Pairc Ui Chaoimh be reopened?

Doubt it.. It's a death trap.

Michael..

Loftus are on site at the moment. They've begun to knock the main stand.
The Cork County Board must be confident of getting the government grant approved.

The_Banker

Michael.. wrote: »

Loftus are on site at the moment. They've begun to knock the main stand.
The Cork County Board must be confident of getting the government grant approved.

Or they are doing it to call the governments bluff... Regardless of whether funding goes ahead or not there would never have been another game played there. It just wasnt fit for purpose anymore.

I think it is remarkable that the Cork County Board can send in a dubious financial plan to decide the cost/benefit analysis and it is the politicians who are getting the blame. And that is why the funding will happen, there is an election coming up (within 12 months) and no politician wants to be seen to be involved in the funding not coming through.

But the Cork County Board have serious questions to answers here, not that they will ever be called to task on them.

Michael..

The_Banker wrote: »

Or they are doing it to call the governments bluff... Regardless of whether funding goes ahead or not there would never have been another game played there. It just wasnt fit for purpose anymore.

I think it is remarkable that the Cork County Board can send in a dubious financial plan to decide the cost/benefit analysis and it is the politicians who are getting the blame. And that is why the funding will happen, there is an election coming up (within 12 months) and no politician wants to be seen to be involved in the funding not coming through.

But the Cork County Board have serious questions to answers here, not that they will ever be called to task on them.

It's clear that the cost/benefit analysis just doesn't stack up. I'm all for the new stadium but in reality how many times a year is it going to be used. I'm just hoping the Cork County Board get somebody creative to run the place. Somebody with a bit of business acumen might be able to get some of the big european teams to play there during pre-season or may be an american football game or two. It's the only way the stadium is going to be of any use.

Outkast_IRE

The_Banker wrote: »

Or they are doing it to call the governments bluff... Regardless of whether funding goes ahead or not there would never have been another game played there. It just wasnt fit for purpose anymore.

I think it is remarkable that the Cork County Board can send in a dubious financial plan to decide the cost/benefit analysis and it is the politicians who are getting the blame. And that is why the funding will happen, there is an election coming up (within 12 months) and no politician wants to be seen to be involved in the funding not coming through.

But the Cork County Board have serious questions to answers here, not that they will ever be called to task on them.

Honestly this sort of thing happens far more often than you would think, increasingly so in the last 8 years since money got tighter.

Processs is always back and forth, it usually just doesnt get covered in the media because alot of the time its not worthy of coverage. Projects often begin while funding applications are still being processed, because they know they will get the money they just need to do whats asked of them.

Outkast_IRE

Michael.. wrote: »

It's clear that the cost/benefit analysis just doesn't stack up. I'm all for the new stadium but in reality how many times a year is it going to be used. I'm just hoping the Cork County Board get somebody creative to run the place. Somebody with a bit of business acumen might be able to get some of the big european teams to play there during pre-season or may be an american football game or two. It's the only way the stadium is going to be of any use.

Yeah the cost-benefit analysis will never stack up based on the stadiums previous usage, as to be honest, it was a bit of a deathtrap and they had to be very careful with the events that were held there.

I think the new stadium will obviously be looking to attract increased revenue from entertainment etc, as it will be the best large scale outdoor event site in the city.

The_Banker

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Yeah the cost-benefit analysis will never stack up based on the stadiums previous usage, as to be honest, it was a bit of a deathtrap and they had to be very careful with the events that were held there.

I think the new stadium will obviously be looking to attract increased revenue from entertainment etc, as it will be the best large scale outdoor event site in the city.

Realistically, how many concerts could PUC hold in a year? I presume there is a cap on how many per year but I would guess a max of three as I couldnt see anymore getting through due to resident protests.
And for big stadium gigs there is a lot of competition out there with Croke Park, Aviva Stadium, Slane etc...

I think it is telling that the GAA who wont allow other sports, are looking to entertainment rather soccer/rugby to pay the bills for a GAA venue.

Therefore (from a national point of view) we have many substandard stadiums instead of a few state of the art stadiums and this all stems from GAA dogma.

Instead, if we had a joined up plan, involving all sports we could have a few state of the art stadiums around the country.

SpaceTime

Unlike Croke Park, it has no residential neighbours and is in the middle of a recreational area and light industry area. Any new residential stuff will be docklands development and quite a bit away from it and can be designed to fit in.

Croke Park's location is more like Turners across - slap bang in the middle of inner suburban residential area.

I doubt P.U.C. is likely to have the same degree of planning issues for events as Croke Park.

ardmacha

The_Banker wrote: »

I think it is telling that the GAA who wont allow other sports, are looking to entertainment rather soccer/rugby to pay the bills for a GAA venue.

Therefore (from a national point of view) we have many substandard stadiums instead of a few state of the art stadiums and this all stems from GAA dogma.

How is it telling? You might get a large crowd at a concert. As pointed out earlier in this thread, what other sports need to use this stadium? Munster Rugby have a newly refurbished ground in Limerick, soccer doesn't need a big ground of any sort. But if either rugby or soccer had some big gig they'd simply go to the Aviva which they already own rather than rent out somewhere else. While this new stadium is likely to used for the rugby world cup there isn't a pile of business otherwise other than concerts.

The_Banker

ardmacha wrote: »

How is it telling? You might get a large crowd at a concert. As pointed out earlier in this thread, what other sports need to use this stadium? Munster Rugby have a newly refurbished ground in Limerick, soccer doesn't need a big ground of any sort. But if either rugby or soccer had some big gig they'd simply go to the Aviva which they already own rather than rent out somewhere else. While this new stadium is likely to used for the rugby world cup there isn't a pile of business otherwise other than concerts.

I didn’t make my point very well.

In Munster we have a lot of GAA stadiums: Semple Stadium, Fitzgerald Stadium, Gaelic Grounds, Pairc Ui Chaoimh…
That’s 4 stadiums in Munster with 40,000 plus capacity… Throw in Cusack park in Ennis (15,000) and the Waterford County ground in Dungarvan and there are 6 major stadiums.

My point is… each GAA county in Ireland follow their own agenda in relation to stadium development rather than a nationwide GAA stadium policy. This has resulted in 6 stadiums in Munster which would be considered substandard (from a facility/seating/safety perspective) in any other country in Europe.

If the GAA developed less stadiums, but with a better standard of facilities and those stadiums were opened up to other sports (soccer/rugby) then those stadiums would have more games.

But the horse has bolted now and we have the Aviva and Thomand so we will continue to have lots of substandard GAA stadiums.

opus

Spotted a video showing the current state of the demolition in the Echo's website today - VIDEO: PÁIRC DEMOLITION CONTINUES APACE