Stabbing at Luas green line stop

easygoing1982

I'll a frequent visitor here, more lurker than poster but I've been reading your stories about the luas and had felt this was going to happen to someone somewhere. It all the threads on the red line I'm sure there's some surprise it happened on the green.

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/luas-security-guard-stabbed-after-coming-to-mans-aid-who-was-knifed-in-attack-31120109.html

heffomike54

Fairly shocking stuff there, sign of the times I guess

MJohnston

Ah jaysus, cancel the BXD, don't want those green line types spoiling our Red line

ShoulderChip

Wow, that is truly sickening, hopefully the gang member are on boards and will explain here there motivations.

Montroseee

Truely shocking that this incident occured on the green line.

AlekSmart

stehyl15 wrote: »

No ive seen quite a bit of security around balally on weekend particulary around balally i personally think its a waste of resources but sure veoila are paying for them

For at least one individual it may well have been a lifesaving resource...

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/luas-security-guard-stabbed-after-coming-to-mans-aid-who-was-knifed-in-attack-31120109.html

One of the attackers then lunged at a security guard, stabbing him in the leg. [MOD EDIT: Please don't quote that much of articles]

Perhaps the most telling aspect of this stuff is in the final sentence...

A source told the Herald how workers are regularly the targets of a gang of youths on the green line with sinister threats being made on a regular basis.

As well as being told they will be stabbed by the gang, missiles are also frequently launched at security guards as they operate the Milltown area.

Of course,this could simply be more scaremongering about Luas,with everything blown out of all proportion,it won't be long before a poster happens along to tell us they've Never witnessed or experienced any problems,therefore no action is required....

Perhaps they're correct ?

porsche959

When I saw headline on that article, I felt sure that it would be about an incident on the Red Line. I had no idea that similar issues were being experienced on the Green Line.

stehyl15

porsche959 wrote: »

When I saw headline on that article, I felt sure that it would be about an incident on the Red Line. I had no idea that similar issues were being experienced on the Green Line.

I think that is probably a one off incident but when the green reaches broombridge it could become more than a one off i am also suprised that is was at milltown a pretty middle class area but then again you dont know who could be carrying a knife these days

Jamie2k9

A source told the Herald how workers are regularly the targets of a gang of youths on the green line with sinister threats being made on a regular basis.

As well as being told they will be stabbed by the gang, missiles are also frequently launched at security guards as they operate the Milltown area.

The people arrested tonight were in 20/30's...

MJohnston

Whilst statistics show the Red Line has a greater general rate of incidents, this surely has to be one of the most serious to take place onboard any Luas? I think people should start letting go of preconceptions about "us or them" being worse.

KD345

A shocking incident which really highlights just how serious the problems on Luas are. Aside from the well reported red line anti-social problems, it seems at least once a month we now have people seriously injured at stops and on trams from assault. From reading repots, things could have been much worse were it not for the intervention of the security guards.

Anyone who goes out with a knife and pepper spray deserves a heavy sentence. Lets see what these guys get and what measures are put in place to increase safety on the line for passengers and staff. I don't have much hope for either.

frankoreagan

If security saw a similar incident happening on the red line, they wouldn't have intervened in the first place.

frankoreagan

What possible measures could they introduce that would stop (very rare) incidents like this happening? reality is that this sort of thing just happens in cities from time to time, unfortunately. I don't see what else can be done bar having a Garda on every tram and platform, which is never going to happen.

The general anti social behavior issues that occur on the red line is mainly a symptom of poorly thought out and executed addiction and homeless services, and won't change until that problem is tackled, which it never will be because it would be too much hard work for politicians, DCC and the HSE.

stehyl15

I know this couldve happened anywhere/anytime but isint it weird how nothing this serious ever happens on dublin bus

MJohnston

stehyl15 wrote: »

I know this couldve happened anywhere/anytime but isint it weird how nothing this serious ever happens on dublin bus

It might be weird, if it was true:
http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/watch-brave-dublin-bus-driver-3674857
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/horror-as-little-boy-jabbed-by-syringe-needle-on-city-bus-30912613.html

KD345

stehyl15 wrote: »

I know this couldve happened anywhere/anytime but isint it weird how nothing this serious ever happens on dublin bus

There have also been violent attacks on buses over the years, on both staff and passengers.

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/video-violent-thug-filmed-punching-3912546

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/cctv-evidence-requested-in-dublin-bus-meat-cleaver-case-30166841.html

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/icrime/man-falls-from-bus-window-after-attack-16577.html

It seems to be a lot worse on Luas, but anti social/criminal behaviour is widespread across the city.

foggy_lad

MJohnston wrote: »

Whilst statistics show the Red Line has a greater general rate of incidents, this surely has to be one of the most serious to take place onboard any Luas? I think people should start letting go of preconceptions about "us or them" being worse.

I thought from reading the news reports that this had been a stabbing on a luas platform or close by and that the security who had been dealing with someone on a tram went to the victims aid? So this incident is not really a problem for the luas but for the area of milltown which obviously has serious gang crime issues.

foggy_lad

frankoreagan wrote: »

If security saw a similar incident happening on the red line, they wouldn't have intervened in the first place.

I don't think that is fair to the hard working security staff on the luas and from what I have seen it is not accurate.

Aard

foggy_lad wrote: »

So this incident is not really a problem for the luas but for the area of milltown which obviously has serious gang crime issues.

Lol at the idea of genteel Milltown having "serious gang crime issues". Milltown is one of the most desirable addresses in the country.

easygoing1982

frankoreagan wrote: »

If security saw a similar incident happening on the red line, they wouldn't have intervened in the first place.

Are they not the same employees

AngryLips

Is it not about time we consider closing the green line for this type of carry on?

KD345

foggy_lad wrote: »

I thought from reading the news reports that this had been a stabbing on a luas platform or close by and that the security who had been dealing with someone on a tram went to the victims aid? So this incident is not really a problem for the luas but for the area of milltown which obviously has serious gang crime issues.

It was a stabbing on a Luas platform. The only reason I can think why someone is on the Luas platform at Milltown would be to use the Luas, as its separated from the general footpath opposite. So while you have a point about general crime issues in the area, this incident happened on a Luas platform, and is very much their problem.

The attack at Milltown is no different from the attack at the platform in Tallaght last month - passengers and staff are at risk and the unfortunate perception is that using public transport in this city is not safe..

cdebru

Is it not about time we had transport police with real powers rather than pretend police with no power, it is highly unlikely these scumbags would have continued their attack in front of 2 Gardai never mind pepper sprayed them and turned the attack on them.

helimachoptor

Couldn't agree more cdebru

foggy_lad

cdebru wrote: »

Is it not about time we had transport police with real powers rather than pretend police with no power, it is highly unlikely these scumbags would have continued their attack in front of 2 Gardai never mind pepper sprayed them and turned the attack on them.

Are you happy with your universal service charge and levels of general taxation? add about 10-20% to the USC for a dedicated transport police who will be far less effective because of the much more spread out nature of public transport in Ireland outside of a few stations in Dublin City centre. If crime happens on a train in Hazlehatch and the police are in Kildare they will never get there in time to be any use at all and much like the security on trams and trains they are a very expensive deterrent to have sitting around on location waiting for people to misbehave.

Ireland does not have the population or public transport density to support warrent or fund a dedicated public transport Gardai.


The solution is to start locking the social reprebates up for 5-7 days for each offence they commit! no right of appeal and no free legal aid for scumbaggery!

punisher5112

Hopefully these scum bags will try it on with the wrong person and get broken in two as I am sick of hearing them getting off all the time.

Proper police force with a minimum tool of a tazer as these don't always work either but better then nothing when up against thicks with knives.

Sad to think that these days you aren't even safe in your own house let alone the street you walk down.

Montroseee

The lads must have been off their heads on drink or drugs to take on the Luas security lads, even with a knife. They seem to solelyrecruit Poland's finest, think 6 ft 4 and 18+ stone.

MJohnston

It's worth re-iterating the fact that the security guards, though assaulted, managed to subdue the attackers, possibly save their victim's life, and got the attackers handed over to the Guards. They should be applauded for what they did, and we should remember that this may not be another case of unpunished thuggery.

cdebru

foggy_lad wrote: »

Are you happy with your universal service charge and levels of general taxation? add about 10-20% to the USC for a dedicated transport police who will be far less effective because of the much more spread out nature of public transport in Ireland outside of a few stations in Dublin City centre. If crime happens on a train in Hazlehatch and the police are in Kildare they will never get there in time to be any use at all and much like the security on trams and trains they are a very expensive deterrent to have sitting around on location waiting for people to misbehave.

Ireland does not have the population or public transport density to support warrent or fund a dedicated public transport Gardai.


The solution is to start locking the social reprebates up for 5-7 days for each offence they commit! no right of appeal and no free legal aid for scumbaggery!

Oh well if you have completely costed it and ruled it out fair enough so.

What a completely nonsensical answer, you could use that argument for any section of the Gardai or even the Gardai in its entirety, if they are not present when a crime is actually committed they are a waste of money, the simple fact is if you have none they will never be present nor will the scumbags have any fear of them ever being present, that is the current situation, as for your supposed solution, who is going to catch them and bring them to court ? The tooth fairy ?

foggy_lad

cdebru wrote: »

Oh well if you have completely costed it and ruled it out fair enough so.

What a completely nonsensical answer, you could use that argument for any section of the Gardai or even the Gardai in its entirety, if they are not present when a crime is actually committed they are a waste of money, the simple fact is if you have none they will never be present nor will the scumbags have any fear of them ever being present, that is the current situation, as for your supposed solution, who is going to catch them and bring them to court ? The tooth fairy ?

I or any other person could bring them to court but that won't stop them or actually improve things on public transport! 20/30/40/50+ previous convictions and walking out of court means they will just walk right back to the scene of their crimes!

As for costings, any further monies put towards these dregs of society is just good money thrown after bad, They are bleeding the country dry with social welfare and free legal aid as well as all the money spent on probation and court services yet you want people to dig deeper to pay for a transport police??? how about reducing the pay of staff in public transport companies to pay for this?

Grandeeod

MJohnston wrote: »

It's worth re-iterating the fact that the security guards, though assaulted, managed to subdue the attackers, possibly save their victim's life, and got the attackers handed over to the Guards. They should be applauded for what they did, and we should remember that this may not be another case of unpunished thuggery.

Nail on head.

As for the fact that it happened on the green line....well that just sums up a much bigger problem that got found out in a place where we traditionally don't expect it. Take your eye off the ball...it hits you in the face.

punisher5112

The green line goes past some dodgy areas just like the red but the problem is more in the city witht the red line.

return guide

MJohnston wrote: »

It's worth re-iterating the fact that the security guards, though assaulted, managed to subdue the attackers, possibly save their victim's life, and got the attackers handed over to the Guards. They should be applauded for what they did, and we should remember that this may not be another case of unpunished thuggery.

+1
Speedy recovery to the two lads.

AlekSmart

stehyl15 wrote: »

He have well been innocent but it just sounds kind of unlikely. I hope people will continue to use public transport as long as they continue to step outside the door as this incident could've happened just walking up the street

From what I understand the STT Operative was stabbed in the legs.

As far as I'm aware some STT Staff do wear anti-stab vests,so this could indicate a degree of premeditation ?

The use of Pepper Spray is also of note,and one would wonder if the canister is part of those stolen from Gardai during the Joan Burton episode ?

punisher5112

They are equipped with stab vests as it's something they defin itely need some think ah sure it's grand we are only a small nation and this sort doesn't go on.

I hope the security guard left him in bits.

monument

Title changed.

Posts merged to this thread from the red line thread.

Speculation posts and those quoting it deleted -- this isn't allowed when the matter is likely to go to court or generally when you have nothing to back what you're saying.

-- moderator

cdebru

foggy_lad wrote: »

I or any other person could bring them to court but that won't stop them or actually improve things on public transport! 20/30/40/50+ previous convictions and walking out of court means they will just walk right back to the scene of their crimes!

As for costings, any further monies put towards these dregs of society is just good money thrown after bad, They are bleeding the country dry with social welfare and free legal aid as well as all the money spent on probation and court services yet you want people to dig deeper to pay for a transport police??? how about reducing the pay of staff in public transport companies to pay for this?

Yes because people are falling over themselves to rush to court and be a witness against these people, that's of course when they are not fighting them singlehandedly. Seriously what colouris the sky on your planet ?
How about we just get rid of free travel for everyone except OAPs ? That would pay for it but then we might not need transport police if our transport providers didn't have to carry the dregs of society for free.

MJohnston

The hyperbole on these threads could launch a rocket to Mars

foggy_lad

cdebru wrote: »

Yes because people are falling over themselves to rush to court and be a witness against these people, that's of course when they are not fighting them singlehandedly. Seriously what colouris the sky on your planet ?
How about we just get rid of free travel for everyone except OAPs ? That would pay for it but then we might not need transport police if our transport providers didn't have to carry the dregs of society for free.

You have missed the whole point of my post, possibly because your mind is clouded by hatred for those with free travel?

All these troublemakers on public transport have been caught several times before and put to the courts. The problem is not bringing them to court the problem is that they are not brought to jail afterwards! Some have over a hundred convictions but never saw a slopping out bucket!!

People would of course be witnesses if they were assured that punishments were going to fit the crimes and that anti social behaviour in public would get you a mandatory 7days in some shltbox like the "dungeons" in mountjoy to think about how you might change your life. It also disrupts serious criminals by making their workforce unreliable.

So anyway, these people will suddenly become upstanding citizens and more valuable members of society because they are not given free travel? (Most as stated in other posts do not have free travel but are defrauding the system. Being a junkie is not recognised as a condition that will make you eligible for free travel.) They will be helping old people by doing a bit of gardening and DIY for them and might even sweep the streets for free to pass the time, they will of course stop drinking their cans and will stop taking all drugs and will report all crime they see or hear about to their local gardai.. What planet are you on where people believe that free travel is the root of any problem on public transport or indeed in society??

How are the likes of Irish rail and bus Eireann going to survive with no government subsidy? They won't is the short answer and don't be thinking that the government would never let them go to the wall because we both know that is exactly what the government want. A clean slate, a blank canvas which will be a lot cheaper to work on. do you really want all bus drivers having to reapply for their jobs at a much lower rate with no bunus or shift payments?

How does all this tie in with the stabbing on the luas? Well those arrested will most likely be released on bail and returned to court for trial in a year or two as is the norm. But in general if those who misbehave in public got mandatory jail sentences it would be a lot better than all the moaning and whinging about free travel.

stehyl15

I dont we really justify a transport police maybe just a lot more gardai on public transport but not a dedicated force

cdebru

foggy_lad wrote: »

You have missed the whole point of my post, possibly because your mind is clouded by hatred for those with free travel?

All these troublemakers on public transport have been caught several times before and put to the courts. The problem is not bringing them to court the problem is that they are not brought to jail afterwards! Some have over a hundred convictions but never saw a slopping out bucket!!

People would of course be witnesses if they were assured that punishments were going to fit the crimes and that anti social behaviour in public would get you a mandatory 7days in some shltbox like the "dungeons" in mountjoy to think about how you might change your life. It also disrupts serious criminals by making their workforce unreliable.

So anyway, these people will suddenly become upstanding citizens and more valuable members of society because they are not given free travel? (Most as stated in other posts do not have free travel but are defrauding the system. Being a junkie is not recognised as a condition that will make you eligible for free travel.) They will be helping old people by doing a bit of gardening and DIY for them and might even sweep the streets for free to pass the time, they will of course stop drinking their cans and will stop taking all drugs and will report all crime they see or hear about to their local gardai.. What planet are you on where people believe that free travel is the root of any problem on public transport or indeed in society??

How are the likes of Irish rail and bus Eireann going to survive with no government subsidy? They won't is the short answer and don't be thinking that the government would never let them go to the wall because we both know that is exactly what the government want. A clean slate, a blank canvas which will be a lot cheaper to work on. do you really want all bus drivers having to reapply for their jobs at a much lower rate with no bunus or shift payments?

How does all this tie in with the stabbing on the luas? Well those arrested will most likely be released on bail and returned to court for trial in a year or two as is the norm. But in general if those who misbehave in public got mandatory jail sentences it would be a lot better than all the moaning and whinging about free travel.

Your attempts at scare mongering every time the free travel pass is mentioned are laughable you think CIE will collapse without free travel, eh dont think so, it is a drain not an asset.

No I dont think they will become model citizens without free travel, but they also won't travel as much, see the link ? You are confusing PSO with free travel the 2 are completely separate

BTW being a "junkie" is a disability that's how they virtually all have free travel ;-)

As for people going as witnesses, but only the knowledge that courts will do nothing, is frankly laughable.

foggy_lad

cdebru wrote: »

Your attempts at scare mongering every time the free travel pass is mentioned are laughable you think CIE will collapse without free travel, eh dont think so, it is a drain not an asset.

No I dont think they will become model citizens without free travel, but they also won't travel as much, see the link ? You are confusing PSO with free travel the 2 are completely separate

BTW being a "junkie" is a disability that's how they virtually all have free travel ;-)

As for people going as witnesses, but only the knowledge that courts will do nothing, is frankly laughable.

Have you any information that the people involved in the latest incident on the Luas green line were free travel pass holders?

What actual evidence(not canteen gossip) have you got that a higher percentage per capita of free travel holders misbehave or cause trouble on public transport? Links? Stastics?


PSO contracts are issued subject to the numbers of people(fare paying AND those with free travel) carried on certain routes which are identified as having a need for a certain service level to meet a perceived public need, They are there to serve the public.

If you cut free travel then you will have to cut back on all pso services and this will mean that the subvention will be drastically cut.

All the CIE companies are telling us they have receivers at the door so such a reduction in their income without a serious staff and service reduction would lead to the company going bust!


That is enough off topic discussion for me, if you wish to continue I will reply via PM or in a new thread of free travel.

The latest from the Luas incident is that one of those arrested is in critical condition from a head injury sustained during the incident.

hfallada

There needs to be more Gardai in Dublin City. There was some serious Parish Pump politics with rural Garda stations being closed. The only function most of those Gardai stations serviced was rubber stamping forms, there was no real threat of crime to start with it.

Where as we have a city with a metro population of 1.8 Million people and a severely under resourced Gardai force. If a Garda station closes in the West, lets be honest not a whole load happens. Gardai numbers fail in Dublin City and serious crimes increase. NYC crime rate has fallen so much, as the police are on the streets. They are entering apartment blocks of high crime. They are stopping and frisking police who may have guns or knives(this would be totally abused by Gardai here). But NYC crime rate fall shows, more police on the street, results in lower crime rates.

cdebru

foggy_lad wrote: »

Have you any information that the people involved in the latest incident on the Luas green line were free travel pass holders?

What actual evidence(not canteen gossip) have you got that a higher percentage per capita of free travel holders misbehave or cause trouble on public transport? Links? Stastics?


PSO contracts are issued subject to the numbers of people(fare paying AND those with free travel) carried on certain routes which are identified as having a need for a certain service level to meet a perceived public need, They are there to serve the public.

If you cut free travel then you will have to cut back on all pso services and this will mean that the subvention will be drastically cut.

All the CIE companies are telling us they have receivers at the door so such a reduction in their income without a serious staff and service reduction would lead to the company going bust!


That is enough off topic discussion for me, if you wish to continue I will reply via PM or in a new thread of free travel.

The latest from the Luas incident is that one of those arrested is in critical condition from a head injury sustained during the incident.

We can't discuss the latest incident and I have no intention of discussing it.

The vast vast majority of free travel pass holders are fine upstanding citizens, unfortunately in recent years there has been a move to move the chemically dependent out of the unemployed sphere and into the disability sector, it is why Ireland has one of the highest rates of disability recipients in the OECD.
These people are the problem, not OAPs or the blind or actual disabled, they are the people in general causing most of the problems, pick pocketing, stealing, shooting up etc etc however there is also a scumbag element beyond them usually groups of young teens into early 20s.

PSO contracts are not based on passenger numbers if they were the NTA wouldn't be tendering the 10% they would be just canceling most of them. You have a habit of just making stuff up and passing it off as fact like your 10% increase in USC to pay for a transport police, the USC raises about 4 to 4.5 billion a year a 10% increase would be about 400 to 450 million euro a year, what kind of transport police do you envisage ? Were you planning on kitting them out with tanks and jet fighters ? Given that the current Garda budget for 13,000 Gardai, 564 stations, over a thousand vehicles, a plane, 2 helicopters, dog units, horse unit, traffic corp, etc etc costs about 1.4billion, that was some Transport police you were planning.

Victor

frankoreagan wrote: »

If security saw a similar incident happening on the red line, they wouldn't have intervened in the first place.

I think this is an unfair and unreasonable statement. There is a big difference between general unruliness and stabbing people. Consequently, there is also a difference in response.

Moderator

---

Case in point. I was on a Red Line tram last summer with a friend and his family. At Smithfield, the CSOs (ticket checkers) took on a guy with a knife who was trying to board. He dropped the knife and ran off.

stehyl15

Personally I think instead of getting a dedicated transport police force which I dont think a small country like Ireland really justifies I think there just needs to be a extra garda presence on public transport

Aard

Perhaps the Traffic Corps could have their remit extended to public transport?

cdebru

Aard wrote: »

Perhaps the Traffic Corps could have their remit extended to public transport?

The traffic corps have been depleted enough spreading them even thinner by expanding their remit doesn't seem like a good idea.
We dont need thousands, but we do need specific Gardai whose job it is, is too actually ride up and down on public transport particularly in areas with more ASB, ie not just going up and down on the 46a and the green line. Also to ride public transport in plain clothes so people acting the maggot are never 100% sure the man or woman sitting across from them is actually a Garda or not.

stehyl15

cdebru wrote: »

Also to ride public transport in plain clothes so people acting the maggot are never 100% sure the man or woman sitting across from them is actually a Garda or not.

Personally id find plain clothes gardai/ticket inspectors/security as a uniformed presence deters trouble in the first place

BuffyBot

Can we not have this thread turn into yet another hair pulling session over free travel? Back on topic.

MJohnston

Noticed today that there were a few uniformed Gardai out on the river boardwalk today, was great to see, and it'd be reassuring to see it happen on the Luas too.