Jesus' father was a Roman soldier named Panthera

Bristolscale7

Some of you may not be familiar with the late 2nd century Roman writer Celsus. He wrote an outstanding text, "On the True Doctrine: a Discourse Against the Christians." Such was the force of his text that the Catholic Church burned every last ****ing one of them they could get their hands on. The Christian thinker Origin was allowed to write a rebuttal and he quoted extensively from the original text (before it was burned). The original text has been painstakingly reconstructed and was published in 1995 by OUP. But enough with the context, let's get to the fun bits:

Why was Jesus born in a stable? Because Mary cheated on her husband with a Roman soldier...

"When she was pregnant she was turned out of doors by the carpenter to whom she had been betrothed, as having been guilty of adultery, and that she bore a child to a certain soldier named Panthera;" and let us see whether those who have blindly concocted these fables about the adultery of the Virgin with Panthera, and her rejection by the carpenter, did not invent these stories to overturn His miraculous conception by the Holy Ghost: for they could have falsified the history in a different manner, on account of its extremely miraculous character, and not have admitted, as it were against their will, that Jesus was born of no ordinary human marriage."

Tordelback

Here's the thing: if I'm not going to accept the factuality of a half dozen early first millennium accounts of the life of Jesus, I'm not going to suddenly accept another. Like all these documents, what's interesting about it is the light it sheds on the attitudes and milieu of its author and the subsequent reactions of its audience. The idea that the (appropriately scandalous) identity of Jesus' father was actually known in the 2nd C is about as likely as the bit with the Gadarene swine.

recedite

This Celsus guy also claimed that Jesus performed his miracles through sorcery, so I would not give him much credence.
There is also mention in the Jewish Talmud of a soldier called Pantera being the father, but again the motivations of the writers have to be called into question.
They obviously saw the rise of the Christian cult as a threat to their own mainstream religion.
In the absence of solid evidence such as might be provided by a Jeremy Kyle DNA test, it's all gossip. Does it really matter who the father was anyway?

fisgon

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

Why was Jesus born in a stable? Because Mary cheated on her husband with a Roman soldier...

Bears a resemblance to a certain Monty Python film.....

Bristolscale7

I don't read Celsus for historical veracity, but rather because it's the best polemic ever written against Christianity. Take this for example:

"If this Jesus were trying to convince anyone of his powers, then surely he ought to have appeared first to the Jews who treated him so badly--and to his accusers--indeed to everyone, everywhere. Or better, he might have saved himself the trouble of getting buried and simply have disappeared from the cross. Has there ever been such an incompetent planner: When he was in the body, he was disbelieved but preached to everyone; after his resurrection, apparently wanting to establish a strong faith, he chooses to show himself to one woman and a few comrades only" (p. 68 of the Hoffman translation). lol.

Bristolscale7

Or take, for example, Celsus' description of the apostles:

"According to the Jews, Jesus collected around him ten or eleven unsavory characters--tax collectors, sailors, and the like, and these scurried about making a living as best they were able, usually through double dealing and in otherwise questionable ways."

Bristolscale7

Celsus on hell:
"Now, it will be wondered how men so disparate in their beliefs can persuade others to join their ranks. The Christians use sundry methods of persuasion, and invent a number of terrifying incentives. Above all, they have concocted an absolutely offensive doctrine of everlasting punishment and rewards, exceeding anything the philosophers (who have never denied the punishment of the unrighteous or the reward of the blessed) could have imagined."

Great stuff.

looksee

Atheism is referring to god, not to Christianity. Establishing the precise details of Jesus' life, parentage etc is as relevant as figuring out who Mohammed was and who he married, or whether Abraham was delusional.

This kind of 'angels on the head of a pin' stuff only reinforces the idea that it is of any consequence who Jesus's father was. Why does this all powerful god permit so much discussion and dissention about his earthly representatives which just serves to distract from his amazingness?

branie2

fisgon wrote: »

Bears a resemblance to a certain Monty Python film.....

He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!

magicbastarder

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

Jesus' father was a Roman soldier named Panthera

jesus actually just got slightly cool again.

furiousox

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

I don't read Celsus for historical veracity, but rather because it's the best polemic ever written against Christianity. Take this for example:

"If this Jesus were trying to convince anyone of his powers, then surely he ought to have appeared first to the Jews who treated him so badly--and to his accusers--indeed to everyone, everywhere. Or better, he might have saved himself the trouble of getting buried and simply have disappeared from the cross. Has there ever been such an incompetent planner: When he was in the body, he was disbelieved but preached to everyone; after his resurrection, apparently wanting to establish a strong faith, he chooses to show himself to one woman and a few comrades only" (p. 68 of the Hoffman translation). lol.

They used 'lol' in the 2nd century?
That's, like, totes amazeballs.

Hotblack Desiato

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

Why was Jesus born in a stable? Because Mary cheated on her husband with a Roman soldier...

"Naughtius Maximus. Promised me the known world, so 'e did..."

MetalDog

Jesus's dad was also known as Biggus Dickus. Quite the ladies' man.

Delirium

Jesus dad was Panthera?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Na8ThDftsKk

Not a bad attempt to modernise Christianity :P

sponsoredwalk

This looks like just another mythological story taken from older Egyptian religions

https://books.google.ie/books?id=NPXcxcCLOjYC&lpg=PA729&ots=xVKU3qW6jr&dq=Isis%20adultery%20Sut&pg=PA729#v=onepage&q=Isis%20adultery%20Sut&f=false

as described in Zeitgeist

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xt-qYDb7UcI

not sure if/how it relates to Isis and Sut but apparently Dionysus (one of the archetypes of the Jesus story) was called 'son of the panther' before Jesus too

http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=3438&start=15#p26413

pauldla

Thanks to the OP for giving me some interesting reading this lunchtime. A few selected quotes from the above-mentioned OUP edition; Hitchens would have nodded agreement, I'm sure.

"It is clear to me that the writings of the christians are a lie, and that your fables are not well-enough constructed to conceal this monstrous fiction: I have heard that some of your interpreters...are on to the inconsistencies and, pen in hand, alter the originals writings, three, four and several more times over in order to be able to deny the contradictions in the face of criticism."

"One ought first to follow reason as a guide before accepting any belief, since anyone who believes without testing a doctrine is certain to be deceived"

"The men who fabricated this geneaology [of Jesus] were insistent on on the point that Jesus was descended from the first man and from the king of the Jews [David]. The poor carpenter's wife seems not to have known she had such a distinguished bunch of ancestors."

"In all of these beliefs you have been deceived; yet you persist doggedly to seek justification for the absurdities you have made doctrines."

"Let's assume for a minute that he foretold his resurrection. Are you ignorant of the multitudes wh ohave invented similar tales to lead simple minded hearers astray? It is said that Zamolxis, Pythagoras' servant, convinced the Scythians that he had risen from the dead... and what about Pythagoras himself in Italy! -or Rhampssinitus in Egypt. The last of these, by the way, is said to have played dice with Demeter in Hades and to have received a golden napkin as a present from her. Now then, who else: What about Orpheus among the Odrysians, Protesiaus in Thessaly and above all Heracles and Theseus."

I could go on, but you can read them for yourself here.

EDIT: One more worth including..

"Christians, needless to say, utterly detest one another; they slander each other constantly with the vilest forms of abuse, and cannot come to any sort of agreement in their teaching. Each sect brands its own, fills the head of its own with deceitful nonsense...".

Eugene Norman

Celius writes pretty well actually. The Romans do great polemic.

ScumLord

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Celius writes pretty well actually. The Romans do great polemic.

Of course he probably went off to the temple after writing all this and based whether he would go on holidays on which direction the birds flew past the window of the temple.

Eugene Norman

ScumLord wrote: »

Of course he probably went off to the temple after writing all this and based whether he would go on holidays on which direction the birds flew past the window of the temple.

Well I don't much about him. Some Roman philosophers were largely atheists towards the pantheon of Greco-Roman Gods.

qt3.14

ScumLord wrote: »

Of course he probably went off to the temple after writing all this and based whether he would go on holidays on which direction the birds flew past the window of the temple.

He was an epicurean, so at the very least he wouldn't have believed in an afterlife. Maybe not full atheism, but it was a start.

smacl

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

Why was Jesus born in a stable? Because Mary cheated on her husband with a Roman soldier...

The messiah's father a Roman? Who'd have thunk it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pS9UWeoq7WA