New job - do I have to provide personal info like DOB to employer?

Escapees

Have changed jobs and was filling in the usual form provided to me by my employer for Revenue. On it you have to provide personal info such as your date of birth, mother's maiden name (if unsure of PPS), social welfare payment info, where you lived if outside of country during last 24 months etc. etc. To be honest, I don't see why my new employer needs anything other than my PPS number and I'm a bit uncomfortable with them knowing stuff like my date of birth etc. Note that the employer is not a corporation but just a small business in a town where, to be honest, discretion or privacy could not be assumed! Maybe my tax cert will include all the info the form asks for like my date of birth anyway so it's a lost cause? Just seems a bit wrong, that's all...

zAbbo

Whats the usual form?

All that is required is start date, address, PPS and employer tax reg number.

You can ring Revenue yourself and register your employment http://www.revenue.ie/en/contact/lo-call.html

They will send you out the Tax cert which your employer can use to calculate payment (quicker if they also use ROS)

Dial Hard

What possible objection could you have to your employer knowing your date of birth???

Escapees

zAbbo wrote: »

Whats the usual form?

Well, I'm just assuming it's the usual form - it's a 2 page Revenue form that's just titled 'Application for a Tax Credit Certificate'.

Tabnabs

Dial Hard wrote: »

What possible objection could you have to your employer knowing your date of birth???

If it's a small office, they probably don't want to leave the OP off the birthday card & cake list

Escapees

Dial Hard wrote: »

What possible objection could you have to your employer knowing your date of birth???

Plenty - it's a security question for some of my online accounts for one thing and to be honest, I don't see how it's anybody's business really unless relevant to the job. In my case, I'm quite young-looking and people generally assume I'm 10+ years younger than I am. Often I'd be working alongside folk that age and in the past there's a real shock and personal awkwardness when my age has come out. It's not a case of trying to mislead people, just the reality from experience that people do act differently if they know you're much older than you appear and act. In this situation, my co-employees who I hardly know will likely have access to the completed form.

Stheno

Escapees wrote: »

Plenty - it's a security question for some of my online accounts for one thing and to be honest, I don't see how it's anybody's business really unless relevant to the job. In my case, I'm quite young-looking and people generally assume I'm 10+ years younger than I am. Often I'd be working alongside folk that age and in the past there's a real shock and personal awkwardness when my age has come out. It's not a case of trying to mislead people, just the reality from experience that people do act differently if they know you're much older than you appear and act. In this situation, my co-employees who I hardly know will likely have access to the completed form.

I think you're being a bit paranoid here.
Plenty of jobs insist on a copy of drivers licence/passport where that information would be available.

Sounds like a minor background check that they are doing

What industry is it in?

Also they are obliged to keep sensitive personal information private under data protection laws.

zAbbo

Escapees wrote: »

Plenty - it's a security question for some of my online accounts for one thing and to be honest, I don't see how it's anybody's business really unless relevant to the job. In my case, I'm quite young-looking and people generally assume I'm 10+ years younger than I am. Often I'd be working alongside folk that age and in the past there's a real shock and personal awkwardness when my age has come out. It's not a case of trying to mislead people, just the reality from experience that people do act differently if they know you're much older than you appear and act. In this situation, my co-employees who I hardly know will likely have access to the completed form.

100% agree with you, you don't need to explain this to anyone and information like this will always find its way out in small businesses.

Escapees

zAbbo wrote: »

100% agree with you, you don't need to explain this to anyone and information like this will always find its way out in small businesses.

That's the reality here. But for the sake of not rocking the boat with a new employer, I'll just run with it.

Just to clarify to others, it's not a HR specific form but a Revenue one for starting a new job. As another poster has suggested, I'd say I could probably send it directly back to Revenue myself but this could be seen by employer as quite odd etc. so I guess I'll just bite my tongue and go with the standard procedure there.

But for the record, I do think there's a data protection issue with an employer have access to all the info on the completed form in question. And I'm betting it'll be changed in the future...

ohnonotgmail

You said you have changed jobs but the 12A is for people who have never worked in ireland. It says it on page 3 of the form. If you have previously worked in Ireland why are you filling out this form?

Escapees

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

You said you have changed jobs but the 12A is for people who have never worked in ireland. It says it on page 3 of the form. If you have previously worked in Ireland why are you filling out this form?

Not sure what form it is as there's no reference to a form number anywhere on it - maybe it didn't print off as too close to top or bottom of page? Also it's a startup business so they might well not be using the right forms!

ohnonotgmail

Escapees wrote: »

Not sure what form it is as there's no reference to a form number anywhere on it - maybe it didn't print off as too close to top or bottom of page? Also it's a startup business so they might well not be using the right forms!

this is the application for a tax credit certificate form. Is this what you were asked to fill in?

http://www.revenue.ie/forms/form12a.pdf

Stheno

Escapees wrote: »

Not sure what form it is as there's no reference to a form number anywhere on it - maybe it didn't print off as too close to top or bottom of page? Also it's a startup business so they might well not be using the right forms!

If it's for revenue to get your tax credits all you need to do is ring revenue with your employers number and ops number and it can be set up without the form
if it's not for revenue you'll probably not have an alternative but to fill it out

sbsquarepants

Escapees wrote: »

Plenty - it's a security question for some of my online accounts for one thing and to be honest, I don't see how it's anybody's business really unless relevant to the job. In my case, I'm quite young-looking and people generally assume I'm 10+ years younger than I am. Often I'd be working alongside folk that age and in the past there's a real shock and personal awkwardness when my age has come out. It's not a case of trying to mislead people, just the reality from experience that people do act differently if they know you're much older than you appear and act. In this situation, my co-employees who I hardly know will likely have access to the completed form.

You sound very paranoid to be honest. If you don't want people being surprised that you don't act your age, maybe you should act your age? Just saying!:D
Your date of birth is not a secret ffs. Unless that is you've already told them it's something completely different to get the job in the first place?

Escapees

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

this is the application for a tax credit certificate form. Is this what you were asked to fill in?

http://www.revenue.ie/forms/form12a.pdf

Yeah...

Zaph

If there's a pension scheme in place I'd assume that they'd need your DOB to calculate your retirement date.

Stheno

Escapees wrote: »

Yeah...

Do you have a p45 from your last job?

ohnonotgmail

Escapees wrote: »

Yeah...

well then you shouldnt be filling that in. give your employer the p45 you received from your previous employer and that is all they need.

Mrs OBumble

The information is used to correctly allocate your tax-credits for the year - and Revenue does need it all.

I assume the employuer has given you the 12a because you've not provided them with a P45. Could you just do that instead? (Or you do have the option of posting the form direct to Revenue yourself, I think.)

The employer needs to assure themselves that you are the person you say you are: just a PPS number isn't enough for that (sure PPS numbers were being pretty openly bought and sold a few years ago) - they should at least be seeing some kind of proof that the number you give is yours. A matching birthdate is the absolutely minimum many people would look for (It's not the employer who will check the match: Revenue eyebrows will be raised if PPS, name and DOB don't match)

Also - they are giving you access to their premises and stock, their till and their customers. Really, they're being incredibly trusting giving you access to all of these, given the very little that they really know about you.

suds1984

Hmmm.... doesn't an employer need to know DOB in case an employee is approaching retirement age and need to prepare the employee for retirement?

Escapees

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

The information is used to correctly allocate your tax-credits for the year - and Revenue does need it all.

I assume the employuer has given you the 12a because you've not provided them with a P45. Could you just do that instead? (Or you do have the option of posting the form direct to Revenue yourself, I think.)

The employer needs to assure themselves that you are the person you say you are: just a PPS number isn't enough for that (sure PPS numbers were being pretty openly bought and sold a few years ago) - they should at least be seeing some kind of proof that the number you give is yours. A matching birthdate is the absolutely minimum many people would look for (It's not the employer who will check the match: Revenue eyebrows will be raised if PPS, name and DOB don't match)

Also - they are giving you access to their premises and stock, their till and their customers. Really, they're being incredibly trusting giving you access to all of these, given the very little that they really know about you.

Fair enough - I should have but still don't have a P45 as previous employer is slow on these things, despite me chasing them several times.

But, I think the point is being missed regarding what personal information an employer (and not Revenue) is entitled to know about an employee. Information required by Revenue is just that - not all of it is required by the employer. I reckon I probably could post the form back directly to Revenue as some posters are suggesting rather than return it to the employer, but I'd be seen as going against the grain.

To be fair, the standard procedure should be for such forms to be returned to Revenue by employees, and Revenue would still verify employee's eligibility to work etc. with employer. Employers have no automatic entitlement to certain personal information on employees. Hey, if it comes up naturally in a conversation with them, then I'll probably disclose such stuff if I feel they're not prying etc.

Dial Hard

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

they are giving you access to their premises and stock, their till and their customers. Really, they're being incredibly trusting giving you access to all of these, given the very little that they really know about you.

Escapees wrote: »

But, I think the point is being missed regarding what personal information an employer (and not Revenue) is entitled to know about an employee. Employers have no automatic entitlement to certain personal information on employees. Hey, if it comes up naturally in a conversation with them, then I'll probably disclose such stuff if I feel they're not prying etc.

Tbh, given the excellent point Mrs. OB made, I think you're the one missing the point.

Again, I can't think of a single non-shady reason why you'd have a problem with your employer wanting to know your date of birth.

thesimpsons

to me a bigger issue than not wanting to give your new employer your DOB is that the employer isn't using the correct forms. 12A is only for new first time entrants to the job scene. I'd be wondering what other paperwork is employer getting incorrect.

ring revenue yourself, have your new employers company number to hand. give the your PPS to revenue, tell them you now working for x company, give the registered number of x company and your credits/etc will be assigned.

Escapees

Dial Hard wrote: »

Tbh, given the excellent point Mrs. OB made, I think you're the one missing the point.

Again, I can't think of a single non-shady reason why you'd have a problem with your employer wanting to know your date of birth.

Well, I've already given several 'non-shady' reasons, a key one being that they (and not talking about Revenue here) do not actually require the info.

Another reason to add to the list is that I have worked for an employer in the past who always assumed that I was younger than they were, and right or wrong, when it emerged that I was older than they were, they became awkward and treated me differently from that point onwards. So, my experience is that people (employers and co-employees) can be odd about these things.

MouseTail

They know your approx age from your CV, so I cannot for the life of me see the issue with providing DOB.

Escapees

MouseTail wrote: »

They know your approx age from your CV, so I cannot for the life of me see the issue with providing DOB.

You're making assumptions there - not every job requires a CV and not every employer looks for one. Last 4 jobs I've had required no CV!

boobar

Escapees wrote: »

That's the reality here. But for the sake of not rocking the boat with a new employer, I'll just run with it.

Just to clarify to others, it's not a HR specific form but a Revenue one for starting a new job. As another poster has suggested, I'd say I could probably send it directly back to Revenue myself but this could be seen by employer as quite odd etc. so I guess I'll just bite my tongue and go with the standard procedure there.

But for the record, I do think there's a data protection issue with an employer have access to all the info on the completed form in question. And I'm betting it'll be changed in the future...

Why don't you question Revenue if you think data protection is an issue?

Dial Hard

Escapees wrote: »

Another reason to add to the list is that I have worked for an employer in the past who always assumed that I was younger than they were, and right or wrong, when it emerged that I was older than they were, they became awkward and treated me differently from that point onwards. So, my experience is that people (employers and co-employees) can be odd about these things.

So tell them your age from the get-go and this is a total non-issue?

seamus

If you look younger than you are, then it's more likely that refusing to reveal your age is in fact holding you back. If an employer assumes you're 25 and not 35 then they're far more likely to overlook you when it comes time to hand more responsibility to someone or appoint a new supervisor.

Suzyq

If I employed someone and they kicked up a fuss over such a benign question it would raise warning bells for me. I would have to consider whether any future requests of the employee would be met with a questionable attitude.

uck51js9zml2yt

Just call revenue with your pps and employer number and they can sort out your credits over the phone and send you and your employer your tax cert.

Apart from that I think you're being paranoid about personal details.
If you caused that much of a problem to me in the first week I'd be considering getting rid of you in your probation period. Just too much hassle.
On a side note and you had an accident in work and couldn't answer paramedic questions they would need to know your age.

Birdsong

Zaph wrote: »

If there's a pension scheme in place I'd assume that they'd need your DOB to calculate your retirement date.

This is the most obvious reason why an employer would need your date of birth. Big companys would also be forecasting few years down the road retirements numbers

MouseTail

They would need it in case of a NERA Audit also.