Companies cold calling my phone: legal?

gaiscioch

I never give my mobile number to anybody I don't know, and the only firms I give it to are ones which I've chosen to do business with - e.g. for product delivery.

This evening a well-known market research company rang it. I answered. At the end of the conversation I asked the caller how he got my number as I never give it out. He told me that his firm uses a thing called "Random Digit Dialing".

What is the legal status in Irish law of firms making such calls to me? I lived in the States for a while and the house phone there never stopped ringing with all sorts of companies and charities ringing. Hopefully corporations have not succeeded in this country in infringing our privacy like that.

slimjimmc

Moved to Legal Discussion as it's not really a consumer issue.

The following seems relevant
http://www.askcomreg.ie/home_phone/How_do_I_prevent_unwanted_calls_from_direct_marketing_companies_-_cold_calls.213.LE.asp

Tearin It Up

I got a phone call too yesterday evening, from Dublin.

Googling the number, and it was a market survey number or something.

Also, I don't hand out my number, only to businesses I deal with like deliveries.

I'm interested in knowing how to stop their calls.

Also, not sure if it makes a difference, they rang my mobile number so have no idea how they got my number. Its not in a phone book.

4068ac1elhodqr

I'm a fan of these 'unsolicited calls', as always follow this procedure:

1. Inform them you're recording the call (which you do, via any smartphone or dictaphone)
2. Get their companies registered trading name, the callers name and note the time/date.
3. Tell them not to call ever again + inform them 'any future calls received' will met with an invoice for time-wasting, my current rate is 45e (per minute) to deal with time wasting and the inconvenience of it all.
4. Await another future call from same (highly unlikely), it may take few days {maximum} to be removed from their cold call list btw.
5. Follow with an invoice and then the small claims court if they call again, have stopwatch handy, time is money!

goz83

Carlos Billions Machine wrote: »

I'm a fan of these 'unsolicited calls', as always follow this procedure:

1. Inform them you're recording the call (which you do, via any smartphone or dictaphone)
2. Get their companies registered trading name, the callers name and note the time/date.
3. Tell them not to call ever again + inform them 'any future calls received' will met with an invoice for time-wasting, my current rate is 45e (per minute) to deal with time wasting and the inconvenience of it all.
4. Await another future call from same (highly unlikely), it may take few days {maximum} to be removed from their cold call list btw.
5. Follow with an invoice and then the small claims court if they call again, have stopwatch handy, time is money!

Very entertaining. Care to show any examples of that working?

What does work though, is putting them on hold and every 30 seconds or so, just say "yep, 1 minute" or similar. Eventually they get pisšed off and you really never hear from them again.

4068ac1elhodqr

Herman & Higgins each won cases in the UK, charging only £10p/min for their wasted time. The more 'damage or distress' you can validate , the better, for the low cost of a small claim certainly worth a shot if you have enough minutes racked up.

www.saynotocoldcalls.com

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20068927
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/dad-sues-ppi-cold-callers-1823356
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/9984828/Cold-call-company-ordered-to-pay-1000-to-man-called-90-times-in-two-months.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2223794/Cold-callers-left-feeling-blue-Homeowner-wins-damages-time-wasted-answering-phone.html


Richard Herman, 53, was so fed up with the unwanted calls arriving from India, he decided to take matters into his own hands.

He warned the company that, in future, he would invoice them £10 for every minute of his time they used.

When the calls continued he began recording them before finally invoicing the company £195 for their use of his "time, telephone and electricity".

Upon receipt of the invoice the marketing firm acting on behalf of UK-based PPI Claimline Ltd, denied making the calls. When Mr Herman revealed he had recorded evidence, they still refused to pay.

But when Mr Herman filed a claim in the small claims court for the unpaid invoice - plus £25 in costs - the company offered to settle the debt out of court and transferred £220 into his bank account.

Atlantic Dawn

These calls are normally from dodgy countries with little ir no consumer protection laws. Typically they call over the web and as such blocking them is not easy, hanging up is easiest.

gaiscioch

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

These calls are normally from dodgy countries with little ir no consumer protection laws. Typically they call over the web and as such blocking them is not easy, hanging up is easiest.

As mentioned in the op, mine was from a well-known Irish market research firm using a system called "Random Digit Dialing" to get my number. It's the legality of such calls I'm unsure of.

Peregrinus

gaiscioch wrote: »

As mentioned in the op, mine was from a well-known Irish market research firm using a system called "Random Digit Dialing" to get my number. It's the legality of such calls I'm unsure of.

It's a bit complex.

You should not receive marketing calls on a mobile phone line unless you have affirmatively indicated your willingness to receive them.

On a landline, it's generally legal to make marketing calls unless the owner has opted out, by having their number put on the do-not-call register. You can have this done by contacting your phone service provider.

The use of automated diallers is not forbidden, provided they are equipped to filter out any numbers which are on the do-not-call list.

In no case is it permittted to make automated marketing calls - i.e. calls where your number is dialled by a machine, which then plays a message to whoever answers the phone. No human operator is involved.

These restrictions only apply to marketing calls. A call inviting you to take part in a genuine survey or market research, with no associated attempt to try and sell you something, is not restricted. But most of the reputable market research companies don't call numbers on the do-not-call list, if only because it is a waste of time and money; the owners of those numbers are unlikely to want to participate in a survey.

Charities and political parties have exemptions, if I recall correctly.

lifeandtimes

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-23869462

Bar some family and friends that might call, this seems like the best alternative. just waiting to see if it can be done to mobile numbers :cool:

Shep_Dog

gaiscioch wrote: »

What is the legal status in Irish law of firms making such calls to me? I lived in the States for a while and the house phone there never stopped ringing with all sorts of companies and charities ringing. Hopefully corporations have not succeeded in this country in infringing our privacy like that.

There's currently a loophole in the law that allows survey/research calls to be made to you without your consent.

However, to make that call they would first have to get your mobile number. This is usually done by a computer randomly trying numbers until someone answers.

If the mobile number is considered to be personal information, then the research company must show that it obtained your personal data fairly.

So, it's arguable that the research companies are in breach of the DP act, because they are holding and processing personal data (your mobile number) which they have not obtained by fair means.

Flem31

A few years ago I had a problem with well known Irish Company ringing my landline.

Was out for first 3 calls, all inside a week
4th Call - sorry not interested, please take me off your database as wont be interested in the future either
5th Call - 2 weeks later, still not interested, asked before to be taken off database, please do it this time
6th Call - month after last call.........have asked twice before and nothing happened. After call ends, I am contacting Gardaí to report you for crank and nuisance phone calls.

No calls since

goz83

Carlos Billions Machine wrote: »

Herman & Higgins each won cases in the UK, charging only £10p/min for their wasted time. The more 'damage or distress' you can validate , the better, for the low cost of a small claim certainly worth a shot if you have enough minutes racked up.

www.saynotocoldcalls.com

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20068927
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/dad-sues-ppi-cold-callers-1823356
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/9984828/Cold-call-company-ordered-to-pay-1000-to-man-called-90-times-in-two-months.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2223794/Cold-callers-left-feeling-blue-Homeowner-wins-damages-time-wasted-answering-phone.html


Richard Herman, 53, was so fed up with the unwanted calls arriving from India, he decided to take matters into his own hands.

He warned the company that, in future, he would invoice them £10 for every minute of his time they used.

When the calls continued he began recording them before finally invoicing the company £195 for their use of his "time, telephone and electricity".

Upon receipt of the invoice the marketing firm acting on behalf of UK-based PPI Claimline Ltd, denied making the calls. When Mr Herman revealed he had recorded evidence, they still refused to pay.

But when Mr Herman filed a claim in the small claims court for the unpaid invoice - plus £25 in costs - the company offered to settle the debt out of court and transferred £220 into his bank account.

Richard Herman clearly had too much time on his hands. Funny though. I do wonder, if he told them that he was recording the calls.

4068ac1elhodqr

Herman actually had less time on his hands due to the nuisance spam calls. A small claims court doesn't take much effort or cost.
He was paid £220+25 for any time he lost anyway.

Only takes a few seconds to tell them you're recording a call, he surely mentioned this after forewarning them he'd be charging for his time after the initial few calls. His telephone provider could likely provide printed statement of all inbound records via a simple 'data request' also. Many auto-dialler calls may broadcast an intention or notification or call recording also.

Higgins did better with £940 claimed for the calls, plus £60 costs. The bad publicity alone - would cost the company more than this. It also does not matter if the call comes (sub-contracted) from 'an appointed or acting company representatives' in Mumbai or elsewhere.

gabsdot40

I did some survey work for the ESRI once. They use random numbers, not all of which are phone numbers
eg.
6215540
6215541
6215542
6215543
6215544
and so on.
I really don't see what the big deal is with these calls. Just say no thanks, good bye and hang up. It seems like a lot of people expend a lot of energy getting annoyed about them

coylemj

gabsdot40 wrote: »

I really don't see what the big deal is with these calls. Just say no thanks, good bye and hang up. It seems like a lot of people expend a lot of energy getting annoyed about them

+1 A lot of people complain that they never get polled when opinion surveys are published in the Sunday papers. If you get a call and don't want to participate, just tell them not to call you again. I've participated in a Rec C poll, they ring me about every 12 months or so and I'm happy to do so. At the end of every call they ask if it's ok to ring me next time, clearly they don't want to be categorised as nuisance callers and take their responsibilities seriously.

A lot of the time you get a phone call (or someone on your doorstep) doing a 'survey' when they're actually selling something. Please differentiate between those fake 'marketing' calls and polling calls where all they want is your opinion.

Shep_Dog

gabsdot40 wrote: »

I did some survey work for the ESRI once. They use random numbers, not all of which are phone numbers
eg.
6215540
6215541
6215542
6215543
6215544
and so on.
I really don't see what the big deal is with these calls. Just say no thanks, good bye and hang up. It seems like a lot of people expend a lot of energy getting annoyed about them

Why don't they use easily identifiable numbers so that people who don't want to talk to them can ignore them?

It's very annoying to get one of these calls on your mobile when you're in the middle of something personal.

The the Irish Data Protection Office should move it's interpretations out of the 1980's, and classify mobile numbers as 'personal data'. Once this is done, it might be possible to stop these companies from collecting this information using random dialing as this method could be deemed not to be 'fair obtaining'.