PPS numbers may be needed to buy and sell cars

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Atlantic Dawn

A much simpler way would be a secure login required with PIN to transfer ownership from one person to another. If there's outstanding fines the transfer is blocked, also perspective buyers of stolen cars would be protected.

my friend

A great idea but will it be enacted?

Chris_Heilong

Connecting the PPSN to a car......I would say revenue would be collecting unpaid car tax from peoples wages in the future.

Rabbo

And also income tax on backyard car dealers

Kevin McCloud

Revenue driven no doubt, we will need to hand over our pps when buying the weekly shopping in Tesco next, this country is going to fcuk altogether.

Rabbo

Kevin McCloud wrote: »

Revenue driven no doubt, we will need to hand over our pps when buying the weekly shopping in Tesco next, this country is going to fcuk altogether.

Grocery shopping and car dealing are not really comparable. Whats wrong with cracking down on tax evasion? If you are declaring all your income and paying considerable tax on it, why should a blind eye be turned to Johnny down the road that's making additional income tax-free? It only serves to increase taxes for the rest of us.

Kevin McCloud

I would not be getting too worried about Johnny down the road at all, I don't think Johnny not paying a bit of road tax is their main agenda here at all.

CiniO

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

A much simpler way would be a secure login required with PIN to transfer ownership from one person to another. If there's outstanding fines the transfer is blocked, also perspective buyers of stolen cars would be protected.

What kind of outstanding fines could there be?
If it's about parking or speeding fines, surely they can still stay outstanding even if car is sold, and no reason to prevent possibility of selling the car because of them.

Chris_Heilong

CiniO wrote: »

What kind of outstanding fines could there be?
If it's about parking or speeding fines, surely they can still stay outstanding even if car is sold, and no reason to prevent possibility of selling the car because of them.

Maybe they are planning to introduce a new law that a car must be taxed and all back tax paid before you can sell.

CiniO

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Maybe they are planning to introduce a new law that a car must be taxed and all back tax paid before you can sell.

Possibly, but hopefully not.

Infracted

I remember watching John Oliver on Municipal fines last week where he covered how some states suspended and blocked renewal of drivers licenses because of unpaid fines and thinking how backward that would be. Get a parking ticket of €40 and a speeding ticket of €80 not have the money to pay it off and the state will ban you from holding a license not on safety grounds but on financial ones. People could lose their jobs if they lose their licence, a fine for unpaid tax shouldnt prevent you from having a licence. Theres also the insurance implications. One week later and we have it proposed here.

Sheldons Brain

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Maybe they are planning to introduce a new law that a car must be taxed and all back tax paid before you can sell.

Given the frequency with which people here are advised to "sell" the car to a relative to avoid back tax, that is hardly surprising.

Kevin McCloud

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Given the frequency with which people here are advised to "sell" the car to a relative to avoid back tax, that is hardly surprising.

A simple change in the road tax legislation would stop this immediately, they left the loop hole wide open and people are doing giant loops through them.

Infracted

People "selling" their cars should be done for tax evasion or the tax bill should be sent regardless if they dont declare it off the road. Its not fair on those who actually pay motor tax. There is no excuse really. I wouldnt support taking their licence though.

CosmicSmash

I had a car arrive from Japan last week and the customs clearance agent made me complete a form berfore the car would be cleared by customs. I last imported about five years ago and I never had to do it before, he was of the opinion it was to crack down on people importing privately and reselling it without giving the government even more tax if they made a profit from it. If your pps number kept popping up I would imagine you would be hearing from them, sooner rather than later.

ironclaw

I don't really see any issue in this. If you pay your dues and live in line with the Revenue laws, there's no issue here that I can see. This country is expensive to live in, skimping a little on your car tax or not declaring profits isn't going to help you out much. And those of us who are actually Revenue compliant and doing business in the country are contributing our fair share, so a crack down, at least for me, is warmly welcomed for those that arn't.

CosmicSmash

ironclaw wrote: »

I don't really see any issue in this. If you pay your dues and live in line with the Revenue laws, there's no issue here that I can see. This country is expensive to live in, skimping a little on your car tax or not declaring profits isn't going to help you out much. And those of us who are actually Revenue compliant and doing business in the country are contributing our fair share, so a crack down, at least for me, is warmly welcomed for those that arn't.

I would totally agree with you on this, if everything's above board you have nothing to worry about. It doesn't change the amount of tax you pay to import the car. It can only help to weed out dealers that are operating under the radar.

El_Duderino 09

Kevin McCloud wrote: »

I would not be getting too worried about Johnny down the road at all, I don't think Johnny not paying a bit of road tax is their main agenda here at all.

I really don't under

El_Duderino 09

Kevin McCloud wrote: »

I would not be getting too worried about Johnny down the road at all, I don't think Johnny not paying a bit of road tax is their main agenda here at all.

Maybe I'm being dence here but what is their main agenda? I really don't understand your objection.

My name is URL

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Maybe I'm being dence here but what is their main agenda? I really don't understand your objection.

You don't see any problem with the idea that the state would be able to block the private sale of a car between citizens?

Whatever about the rest of it, the state should have no right to stop you from selling a possession of yours just because of an unpaid fine.

Jesus.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Maybe I'm being dence here but what is their main agenda? I really don't understand your objection.

Kevin McCloud

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Maybe I'm being dence here but what is their main agenda? I really don't understand your objection.

I seriously doubt its because of Johnny not paying a bit of tax or parking fine. Lets keep with Johnny for example he is co-habiting with his partner Shiela, they have 3 kids together, they are both on the rock and roll, getting other benefits and a council house for €25 per week.
Johnny works for cash 3 days a week for Tom on a farm for cash and earns himself a nice €270 into his pocket. Johnny and Shielas neighbours have bought a new car and this does not go down well with Johnny so he decides to use his stack of cash from working with Tom over the last 2 years.
With this pps number agenda alarm bells would surely ring when it shows up that Johnny has bought a €25k motor and where did he get that money from?

K.Flyer

Interesting to see this being considered, as its the normal done thing in Spain.
Having your pps no. attached to certain things helps revenue to check if you are living beyond your declared means.
In Spain when buying / selling a vehicle the change of title includes your pps number (N.I.E. or N.I.F. in Spain) and its printed on the new title when you get it back.
You must also provide your number to obtain a utility service, buy or let property and to open a bank account.
Now this is where it gets interesting...
If you get sent a fixed penalty notice for speeding and you decide not to pay it, the amount due will begin to accrue interest. When the amount has reached a certain level, and after several reminders, the authorities do a search of bank databases for your pps number. If they find an account in your name and there is enough money in it they will take the full amount from it.

Del2005

K.Flyer wrote: »

Interesting to see this being considered, as its the normal done thing in Spain.
Having your pps no. attached to certain things helps revenue to check if you are living beyond your declared means.
In Spain when buying / selling a vehicle the change of title includes your pps number (N.I.E. or N.I.F. in Spain) and its printed on the new title when you get it back.
You must also provide your number to obtain a utility service, buy or let property and to open a bank account.
Now this is where it gets interesting...
If you get sent a fixed penalty notice for speeding and you decide not to pay it, the amount due will begin to accrue interest. When the amount has reached a certain level, and after several reminders, the authorities do a search of bank databases for your pps number. If they find an account in your name and there is enough money in it they will take the full amount from it.

I like the last bit.

markpb

Infracted wrote: »

I remember watching John Oliver on Municipal fines last week where he covered how some states suspended and blocked renewal of drivers licenses because of unpaid fines and thinking how backward that would be. Get a parking ticket of €40 and a speeding ticket of €80 not have the money to pay it off and the state will ban you from holding a license not on safety grounds but on financial ones. People could lose their jobs if they lose their licence, a fine for unpaid tax shouldnt prevent you from having a licence. Theres also the insurance implications. One week later and we have it proposed here.

Driving is a privilege, not a right. If someone is shirking their responsibilities by breaking the law and refusing to pay their fines, why should the state not remove their driving privileges?

This is separate to any suggestion that the state could or should block the sale of a car if there are fines outstanding. That would be silly, counterintuitive (since the sake could be used to fund the payment of the fines) and totally unconstitutional.

CiniO

markpb wrote: »

Driving is a privilege, not a right. If someone is shirking their responsibilities by breaking the law and refusing to pay their fines, why should the state not remove their right to drive?

So what is it in the end - privilege or right?

Kevin McCloud

Children paying tax on their holy communion money will be the next thing.

El_Duderino 09

My name is URL wrote: »

You don't see any problem with the idea that the state would be able to block the private sale of a car between citizens?

Whatever about the rest of it, the state should have no right to stop you from selling a possession of yours just because of an unpaid fine.

Thanks for the replies. I see where you're coming from now. You just need to settle your bills associated with the item before selling it on. As a seller I can see how someone might like to load it up with debt before selling it but I can see it protects the buyer from buying that item. Would you be buying the car debt and all?

I think people have been stung by buying cars with lease agreements attached which makes them liable for the remaining lease payments plus whatever they paid for the car.

If you get a speeding fine, surely you still have to pay the fine so why not settle it before the sale.

It sounds like people are complaining that the government are proposing legislation to cut down on fraud and non payment of fines. Isn't that what we want them to do? If I'm missing your point please let me know.

MAJJ

Del2005 wrote: »

I like the last bit.

Me too. Less court/police involvement although almost big brother (1984 style). Would need to be really clear on what's coming in to fully know where I stand.

goz83

In Spain, you can't fart before having to give your NIE number. There is no privacy at all. You're totally plugged into the system. We are fast becoming the same. They'll be shoving gps trackers up our arśes before the end of this decade.

challengemaster

My name is URL wrote: »

Whatever about the rest of it, the state should have no right to stop you from selling a possession of yours just because of an unpaid fine.

You do realise they've already done this with property tax?

Kevin McCloud

goz83 wrote: »

They'll be shoving gps trackers up our arśes before the end of this decade.

Don't be giving the revenue ideas :P

Del2005

MAJJ wrote: »

Me too. Less court/police involvement although almost big brother (1984 style). Would need to be really clear on what's coming in to fully know where I stand.

We already have big brother, his name is Apple Google etc, since we sold out for smartphones. Its amazing how much they know about us.

MAJJ

Del2005 wrote: »

We already have big brother, his name is Apple Google etc, since we sold out for smartphones. Its amazing how much they know about us.

Yes Google cards was an eye opener, telling me my flight was on time based on either my gmail or my web history, that and my stocks in Google finance and my home work journey !

keithclancy

goz83 wrote: »

In Spain, you can't fart before having to give your NIE number. There is no privacy at all. You're totally plugged into the system. We are fast becoming the same. They'll be shoving gps trackers up our arśes before the end of this decade.

I'd prefer it to be honest, makes thing very difficult in Ireland.

E.G. using a utility bill or something to open a bank account seems a bit honkey.

For the Local property tax it seemed a bit stupid that you had to sign up for it, they should have that information on file already (but they don't)

Everyone just registers stuff at their mam and dads address, many people on the Voting Registrar are dead or not even in the country anymore.

You can't have it both ways, i.e. have complete privacy and then expect a perfect system that knows where people live in all systems at all times.

vectra

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Connecting the PPSN to a car......I would say revenue would be collecting unpaid car tax from peoples wages in the future.

and unpaid water charges

El_Duderino 09

If you're objection is to being forced to pay legitimate fees and fines then you missed the significance of 1984 and big brother.

At first I thought there might be some fair objection to this proposal. I asked for reasoned objections and I got a funny (unrelated) cartoon, an objection to cutting down on welfare fraud and a reference to 1984 which was way off the mark.

I wonder how many people who object to 'big brother' are posting from phones with Facebook or Google apps. That's closer to big brother than legislation allowing the government to do the actual job of governing. Whinging for the sake of whinging so far.

I'm still open to legitimate objections.

Axel Lamp

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I'm still open to legitimate objections.

There are no legitimate objections. People just want to complain and blame the government for changing things.

TallGlass

This is Ireland, if they try to put this into operation it will be a disaster.

What if you give a false PPS number when buying a car? Also I don't really like the idea of having my PPS number linked in with my car, surely if they are seeing a certain address constantly receiving log books on the current system then this would be a red flag. Why the need for the big change?

If they want to get 100% or near 100% compliance then add the road tax on at pumps. Have no idea why they are trying to avoid doing this at all costs when its the simplest way, cars need fuel to run, put more tax on the fuel.

K.Flyer

TallGlass wrote: »

This is Ireland, if they try to put this into operation it will be a disaster.

What if you give a false PPS number when buying a car?

Again to reference the Spanish way, its all a paper trail with proof of I.D. and number being required.
Also all of the paperwork is completed by a legal agency who checks and verifies that everyone is who they say they are. This of course means that there is a transfer fee attached to the transaction.

El_Duderino 09

TallGlass wrote: »

This is Ireland, if they try to put this into operation it will be a disaster.

What if you give a false PPS number when buying a car? Also I don't really like the idea of having my PPS number linked in with my car, surely if they are seeing a certain address constantly receiving log books on the current system then this would be a red flag. Why the need for change?

This really is a winner for hypocrisy. You suggest that it can't work because you could intentionally subvert it to allow you to continue to commit fraud. Then you blame the fact that it would have failed on 'this is Ireland'. It's you who is suggesting ensuring it fails, not 'Ireland'.

Do you even see how ridiculous your paragraph is? Sure any law could be subverted if enough people refuse to be governed (then complain about the lack of Governance). That's real Doublethink. I had some sympathy for the topic and now I sigh for Ireland.

Long Time Lurker

Lads don't get too carried away with this. Apparently it was just a hand written note scribbled down by some 11. - 2:30 flexi timer during an inter departmental chit chat. There was nothing in concrete. Yeah sure this is the kinda nonsense civil servants end up deploying as policy but for now its nothing more than doodle blown outta proportion to sell newspapers.