Munster Joinery Installation Error

Goodworkhock

Hi.

Not sure if this is the right thread but kind of at a loss.

Just looking for some advice on this.

The above company installed a set of EcoClad doors to the rear off my house. I came home to find them installed, the measurements off about 5 inches so huge gap at the top of door.

We are building an extension so have a builder in.

The contract was for MJ to measure, supply and fit the doors. MJ rep now saying it's the builders fault as he took measurements off him. Builder Denys this.
The contract we signed has our signature and the reps only. On it are measurements that are off by over 100mm.

I received no written confirmation to say they would be deviating from the agreement and using the builders measurements. On the contract it makes no reference to the builder.

Anyone have any experience with this? The rep is saying MJ is in no way liable. I have escalated it to management.

Have spent thousands on these would really appreciate some advice.

Thanks.

gutteruu

Goodworkhock wrote: »

Hi.

The contract we signed has our signature and the reps only. On it are measurements that are off by over 100mm......

....I received no written confirmation to say they would be deviating from the agreement and using the builders measurements.

You signed an agreement with the incorrect dimensions? Or were the dimensions altered after?

Goodworkhock

gutteruu wrote: »

You signed an agreement with the incorrect dimensions? Or were the dimensions altered after?

My wife signed the agreement with what now turns out to be incorrect dimensions. I understand the angle you're coming form though.

I would be of the opinion that if we were competent enough to recognise incorrect measurements to begin with, we wouldn't have a need to have a rep measure up.

If the measurements said 2300mm or 1800mm would my wife know the difference and realistically should we be expected to know?

DublinDilbert

So the MJ Rep came out and took measurements that were wrong, then got your wife to sign off on them (and probably the colour etc)?

If the MJ Rep came out and took wrong measurements, it's their fault all the way. You couldn't expect any home owner to double check the measurements of someone who does this every day for a living. Also how would the home owner know how much clearance should be allowed etc...

Goodworkhock

And from looking at the agreement itself, the only warning given is that the customer needs to be sure on the spec they've chosen. By that I understand it to mean the amount of openings, which way the door slides, colour etc.

Not: "please ensure the measurements the rep has taken are correct."

It was 100mm off. No way, in my opinion, I should be expected to know that or be accountable for it.

Goodworkhock

DublinDilbert wrote: »

So the MJ Rep came out and took measurements that were wrong, then got your wife to sign off on them (and probably the colour etc)?

If the MJ Rep came out and took wrong measurements, it's their fault all the way. You couldn't expect any home owner to double check the measurements of someone who does this every day for a living. Also how would the home owner know how much clearance should be allowed etc...

Objectively I agree with this. And am trying not to view it subjectively. I paid good money for a door to arrive that fits the opening. How MJ get the measurements is of no concern to me.

The problem though is MJ are saying the builder is liable for this as they claim he gave them the measurements. But I didn't ask him to give the measurements and he does not represent me in any way nor is his name on the signed contract.

I fear getting stuck in the middle. Builder has told me he gave them nothing and has nothing to do with it. Which is fair enough.

Fear Ciarrai

I worked in MJ for years. Their tag line is "the professionals you can trust" It was a source of amusement to us all.

Goodworkhock

Fear Ciarrai wrote: »

I worked in MJ for years. Their tag line is "the professionals you can trust" It was a sense of amusement to us all.

Ha. Since you worked there before can you comment/advise on this? Any idea?

TheChizler

OP what is your ideal solution? They fill the gap, replace the door, or reduce the price?

I would be looking at sending them a registered letter, sending a solicitor's letter, and eventually small claims court if the cost of that door is less than the small claims limit, which I presume it is.

Goodworkhock

TheChizler wrote: »

OP what is your ideal solution? They fill the gap, replace the door, or reduce the price?

I would be looking at sending them a registered letter, sending a solicitor's letter, and eventually small claims court if the cost of that door is less than the small claims limit, which I presume it is.

I'm not looking for anything other than the door replaced with the one of the size we paid for. To fill it takes 4 inches off the head height so that's not ideal and money leaves me with cash but the same problem.

Any idea what the small claims cut off point is?

Goodworkhock

I see the limit is 2k. The door was more than that. It's 2.2m in height and approx. 5m in width.

TheChizler

Goodworkhock wrote: »

I'm not looking for anything other than the door replaced with the one of the size we paid for. To fill it takes 4 inches off the head height so that's not ideal and money leaves me with cash but the same problem.

Any idea what the small claims cut off point is?

€2,000, the claim would only be for the door so as long as that part of the bill was less than the limit you should be ok. You might want to get that clarified though, that the total cost of the purchase doesn't come in to it.

As well I think the court can only award cash, not order a replacement, again you'd have to get this clarified, so you'd have to get a quote for the door alone and claim for that amount possibly. Presuming MJ would still work with you after going through this process.

Best to exhaust all other avenues first!

TheChizler

Goodworkhock wrote: »

I see the limit is 2k. The door was more than that. It's 2.2m in height and approx. 5m in width.

Oh!

I was imagining your standard height 400 mm door. I can see why they're kicking up a fuss!

DublinDilbert

Goodworkhock wrote: »

Objectively I agree with this. And am trying not to view it subjectively. I paid good money for a door to arrive that fits the opening. How MJ get the measurements is of no concern to me.

The problem though is MJ are saying the builder is liable for this as they claim he gave them the measurements. But I didn't ask him to give the measurements and he does not represent me in any way nor is his name on the signed contract.

I fear getting stuck in the middle. Builder has told me he gave them nothing and has nothing to do with it. Which is fair enough.

MJ are claiming the builder supplied dimensions, so ask them to confirm when and how this was done. They should have a record of an email or a phone conversation, it would be part of their ISO 9000 that they need to get all that documented for each order.

Goodworkhock

DublinDilbert wrote: »

MJ are claiming the builder supplied dimensions, so ask them to confirm when and how this was done. They should have a record of an email or a phone conversation, it would be part of their ISO 9000 that they need to get all that documented for each order.

The don't have a record of it. There is no record of the builder providing the dimensions, his name wasn't on the green slip that was signed and the builder denies ever providing any measurements. And to be fair to him, from the start he said he wanted nothing to do with the installation as they were doing it all.

Perhaps the rep submitted more than the green slip. Will know more once a manager contacts us.

mickdw

DublinDilbert wrote: »

MJ are claiming the builder supplied dimensions, so ask them to confirm when and how this was done. They should have a record of an email or a phone conversation, it would be part of their ISO 9000 that they need to get all that documented for each order.

From experience, I've seen lots of issues with munster but in fairness to them, swapping out windows or doors never seems to be an issue. Having said that, in the cases I have seen it was their issue so they had little option.
Also, I've never seen them take measurements of an other party other than for a shed.
Just tell them you want it swapped. No debate.

Goodworkhock

mickdw wrote: »

From experience, I've seen lots of issues with munster but in fairness to them, swapping out windows or doors never seems to be an issue. Having said that, in the cases I have seen it was their issue so they had little option.
Also, I've never seen them take measurements of an other party other than for a shed.
Just tell them you want it swapped. No debate.

That's the route I'm going to go and hopefully they agree. My only worry is that by signing the docket for it, we've in some way agreed that we are happy with the measurements supplied.

BryanF

Goodworkhock wrote: »

My wife signed the agreement with what now turns out to be incorrect dimensions. I understand the angle you're coming form though.

I would be of the opinion that if we were competent enough to recognise incorrect measurements to begin with, we wouldn't have a need to have a rep measure up.

If the measurements said 2300mm or 1800mm would my wife know the difference and realistically should we be expected to know?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057405102

The contract is between you/wife & supplier, we've teased that out in link above: therefore you have inadvertently agreed to purchase the goods & technical spec.

1. It is unfortunate that No formal tender was entered into - so no written document stating 'supplier will measure' agreement was entered into.
2. You stated the builder wanted nothing to do with the windows, why would he, if he was not getting a % for the grief of dealing with such a company?
3. What was your engineer contracted to do? Why did he not tender the windows and recommend that the windows were a sub-contract of the main contractor?

Goodworkhock

"The contract is between you/wife & supplier, we've teased that out in link above: therefore you have inadvertently agreed to purchase the goods & technical spec."

That's your quote. Won't let me quote you directly because of the noob URL rule.

********************

"1. It is unfortunate that No formal tender was entered into - so no written document stating 'supplier will measure' agreement was entered into.
2. You stated the builder wanted nothing to do with the windows, why would he, if he was not getting a % for the grief of dealing with such a company?
3. What was your engineer contracted to do? Why did he not tender the windows and recommend that the windows were a sub-contract or the main contractor?"

*******************

1.Nothing to my knowledge, but my wife dealt with all of this. When I talked to the company in the showroom they asked me did the builder email or phone in the measurements. In this case he didn't.
2. I stated he wanted nothing to do with it. But that was said as the rep from the company is claiming that he never measured, and has stated in an email to me that he never took his tape out. He says he went purely off the builder's measurements.
3. Engineer was not contracted for this. He was steelwork signoff, etc. Reason main contractor didn't do windows was the guarantee that came from the company.


I don't dispute that we have agreed to purchase, but can we really be held accountable for the measurements and be responsible for not noticing that they were 100mm off when we weren't brought through the process? And I would of the opinion that we paid experts to do this. I don't see where or how we are liable for the measurements.

mickdw

Goodworkhock wrote: »

"The contract is between you/wife & supplier, we've teased that out in link above: therefore you have inadvertently agreed to purchase the goods & technical spec."

That's your quote. Won't let me quote you directly because of the noob URL rule.

********************

"1. It is unfortunate that No formal tender was entered into - so no written document stating 'supplier will measure' agreement was entered into.
2. You stated the builder wanted nothing to do with the windows, why would he, if he was not getting a % for the grief of dealing with such a company?
3. What was your engineer contracted to do? Why did he not tender the windows and recommend that the windows were a sub-contract or the main contractor?"

*******************

1.Nothing to my knowledge, but my wife dealt with all of this. When I talked to the company in the showroom they asked me did the builder email or phone in the measurements. In this case he didn't.
2. I stated he wanted nothing to do with it. But that was said as the rep from the company is claiming that he never measured, and has stated in an email to me that he never took his tape out. He says he went purely off the builder's measurements.
3. Engineer was not contracted for this. He was steelwork signoff, etc. Reason main contractor didn't do windows was the guarantee that came from the company.


I don't dispute that we have agreed to purchase, but can we really be held accountable for the measurements and be responsible for not noticing that they were 100mm off when we weren't brought through the process? And I would of the opinion that we paid experts to do this. I don't see where or how we are liable for the measurements.

I wouldn't get into that contract stuff with them.
They supplied the doors direct to you as a private householder. you signed off on the order however as a private householder, you could not be expected nor would it have been made clear to you that you were signing off on dimensional aspects.
If there is any argument, contact a solicitor.

genuine leather

1.Nothing to my knowledge, but my wife dealt with all of this. When I talked to the company in the showroom they asked me did the builder email or phone in the measurements. In this case he didn't.
2. I stated he wanted nothing to do with it. But that was said as the rep from the company is claiming that he never measured, and has stated in an email to me thathe never took his tape outHe says he went purely off the builder's measurements.
3. Engineer was not contracted for this. He was steelwork signoff, etc. Reason main contractor didn't do windows was the guarantee that came from the company.


I don't dispute that we have agreed to purchase, but can we really be held accountable for the measurements and be responsible for not noticing that they were 100mm off when we weren't brought through the process? And I would of the opinion that we paid experts to do this. I don't see where or how we are liable for the measurements.[/QUOTE]

Its a pity, the builder would have got it right.
Imho, it does not matter what window company is on site, there is no way
when they are there to measure, that they would not pull a tape on a unit of that size.
An instance where the client might give sizes would be for costings only,then an onsite measurement.
As mickdw said, should be replacement, no debate.

Fear Ciarrai

Goodworkhock wrote:

Ha. Since you worked there before can you comment/advise on this? Any idea?

The best advice I could have given you would have been before you placed the order!

sky6

Companies don't generally take verbal instruction for bespoke manufactured products. So ask them to produce the evidence that the Builder supplied the measurements. If they can't supply any then they have no defence as hearsay has no legal standing in court. I'm sure a judge would laugh if a rep stood up and stated he never actually measured the job for himself before committing his company to Manufacture the product.
as previously said just tell them you want the doors replaced or you will be left with no option but to take further legal action.

TopTec

Big double wooden exterior doors fitted to mine 18 months ago by MJ. Just after they were fixed in place and they started to remove protective tape I saw a nasty scar across the central uprights where they had been loaded badly and rubbed on the journey. MJ initially sent out their repair fella but he just tried to cover the damage with a stain, was just as bad when he finished.

Fella from Cork rang me to ask what I wanted. I suggested they send a french polisher to try to redo the finish. MJ said for me to arrange it but they wouldn't pay anymore than 100 euro for repair.

I sent them a rejection mail that evening and told them to remove the doors by the end of the week or it would be a solicitor issue. Cork fella rang again and got grumpy with me. I stuck to my guns, money refunded, and the same fitters turned up on the Friday and destroyed the door removing it.

Went with a local company and 4 weeks later new doors. I have managed to persuade neighbours and friends not to buy from MJ and have sent a couple of mails to MJ telling them this... I don't bother anymore.

The moral is to keep on their backs, stick to your guns and put everything in writing.

TT

Crumbs868

Salesmans commission might have something to do with it. If he can fob you off (as in sure works on a lot of people) then will keep his commission.

Follow up on the other poster who mentioned the ISO qualification being dependant on good record keeping. These processes are usually anal so if the communication between builder happened (sounds like it didn't) then they surely would have produced at this stage

iano.p

This is the reason I don't even talk to them on jobs anymore I have had loads of hassle over the years with them. They will most times fix it but you have too fight them

water-man

Hi,

On a new build and had a similar issue. Door was right size but not what I'd expected when ordered.

In fairness they replaced the door with one I required quite quickly.

But I still have other window issues which need sorting. They are aware of these but am waiting till the rest of house is complete before putting pressure on them to get it sorted.

It's a pity really as they seem like good windows but it is their quality that lets them down big time - seals badly installed, scratches on frames etc etc.

WM

Tom44

Got a 5 bedroom house fully done by MJ
Slight bo bo,
Ordered Georgan affect, got plain glass.
Major F up.
27 pains of glass had to be replaced.

Must also say, they didn't argue as it was a factory mistake.
Pricy mistake.

Tom44

As for OP door.

MJ do sometimes advertise 30% off.

Sorry, couldn't resist !!!
Tom