benefits of CID???

mollytev32

I've just been awarded cid for 20 hrs in my school...just wondering what are the differences between this and actual permanency .....even my principal seems confused...its a special school for kids in care aged between 12 and 18 and falls under primary sector I think....
kind of thought I would get paid for my holidays now but seemingly not...was hoping vec could spread my pay over the year but they say not as I don't have a pro rata contract and am not entitled to....
I know I have a job for life now and dats great security but still not getting paid while off...I realise holiday pay is included in my hourly rate but would b great if they could spread it out over the year....
anyone shed any light on this or experienced a similar situation...??? Also if u could tell me the other benefits of CID that I am not aware of cos as far as I can see I'm no different than I was. ..

Tia..

ustazjoseph

We were informed by the senior TUO REP that there was no difference at all. I'm hoping that's true!

mirrorwall14

What do you mean you aren't being paid for the summer? CID has no difference to permanency and comes from contracts which pay over the summer so I don't know how you could have gotten it without the summer pay? Though maybe it's because it's not mainstream? Never heard of this situation

mollytev32

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

What do you mean you aren't being paid for the summer? CID has no difference to permanency and comes from contracts which pay over the summer so I don't know how you could have gotten it without the summer pay? Though maybe it's because it's not mainstream? Never heard of this situation

I've been on a fixed term contract for past 3 and half years running from Sept to end of June. ...contract renewed every September. ..never had a pro rata contract so always had unpaid summers....vec informs me that cid does not change terms of my contract and everything is as was before I was awarded cid....I still have to fill out forms with my hrs every month and still getting paid 23rd of every school month...
Only difference is I am guaranteed 20 hrs every year..😅

mollytev32

mollytev32 wrote: »

I've been on a fixed term contract for past 3 and half years running from Sept to end of June. ...contract renewed every September. ..never had a pro rata contract so always had unpaid summers....vec informs me that cid does not change terms of my contract and everything is as was before I was awarded cid....I still have to fill out forms with my hrs every month and still getting paid 23rd of every school month...
Only difference is I am guaranteed 20 hrs every year..😅

Anytime I question vec I get "it's because it's not post primary or something like that....union seem to think they can't do that but they seem pretty sure der right

rainbowtrout

mollytev32 wrote: »

Anytime I question vec I get "it's because it's not post primary or something like that....union seem to think they can't do that but they seem pretty sure der right

Get back to your union. I'm not familiar with employment conditions in special schools, but I've never heard of any CID job in the public sector (teaching or otherwise) where you don't get paid for the summer holidays. Do other people where you are working get paid for the summer holidays?

Also if you are on CID with guaranteed hours per week why would you still have to keep filling in sheets for hours? There's something not right about all of this.

mollytev32

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Get back to your union. I'm not familiar with employment conditions in special schools, but I've never heard of any CID job in the public sector (teaching or otherwise) where you don't get paid for the summer holidays. Do other people where you are working get paid for the summer holidays?

Also if you are on CID with guaranteed hours per week why would you still have to keep filling in sheets for hours? There's something not right about all of this.

That's exactly what I thought....yeap there are 2 permanent teachers and me on cid and 3 part time teachers...The 2 permanent teachers get paid for their holidays...
The vec just said to me that the conditions of my contract remain exactly the same..nothing changes...
I definitely have cid because they sent me a letter informing me...although I have been pestering them since sept and also had union onto them...not sure Wat to do nowðŸ˜

mirrorwall14

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Get back to your union. I'm not familiar with employment conditions in special schools, but I've never heard of any CID job in the public sector (teaching or otherwise) where you don't get paid for the summer holidays. Do other people where you are working get paid for the summer holidays?

Also if you are on CID with guaranteed hours per week why would you still have to keep filling in sheets for hours? There's something not right about all of this.

This is exactly what I was thinking. I've never heard of year on year contracts that would be CID-able running sept-June rather than sept-sept

katydid

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

What do you mean you aren't being paid for the summer? CID has no difference to permanency and comes from contracts which pay over the summer so I don't know how you could have gotten it without the summer pay? Though maybe it's because it's not mainstream? Never heard of this situation

If a CID contract is under 18 hours a week, it's an hourly rate. Over 18, and you'e paid in the same way as a permanent teacher, with holiday pay.

mollytev32

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

This is exactly what I was thinking. I've never heard of year on year contracts that would be CID-able running sept-June rather than sept-sept

Yeah I understand what ur saying...not sure how to fight them wen I don't understand myself😂

mollytev32

katydid wrote: »

If a CID contract is under 18 hours a week, it's an hourly rate. Over 18, and you'e paid in the same way as a permanent teacher, with holiday pay.

I did say that to them about being over 18 hrs and they said that's only in post primary

katydid

mollytev32 wrote: »

I've been on a fixed term contract for past 3 and half years running from Sept to end of June. ...contract renewed every September. ..never had a pro rata contract so always had unpaid summers....vec informs me that cid does not change terms of my contract and everything is as was before I was awarded cid....I still have to fill out forms with my hrs every month and still getting paid 23rd of every school month...
Only difference is I am guaranteed 20 hrs every year..😅

I presume you mean per week...

If you are over 18 hours, you ARE entitled to payment on the same terms as a permanent teacher.

mollytev32

katydid wrote: »

I presume you mean per week...

If you are over 18 hours, you ARE entitled to payment on the same terms as a permanent teacher.

Sorry yes...Every week...thanks for your help...The vec have a history with fighting us on everything...I won't give up though...finally get cid and I feel very few benefits so far

katydid

mollytev32 wrote: »

That's exactly what I thought....yeap there are 2 permanent teachers and me on cid and 3 part time teachers...The 2 permanent teachers get paid for their holidays...
The vec just said to me that the conditions of my contract remain exactly the same..nothing changes...
I definitely have cid because they sent me a letter informing me...although I have been pestering them since sept and also had union onto them...not sure Wat to do nowðŸ˜

Go to your union and sort that out. I don't know what union you are, but this is what the ASTI says: "The only difference between a contract of indefinite duration and a permanent contract is that CID holders who teach less than 18 hours are paid at an hourly rate for the number of hours they teach each week. CID holders on 18 hours or more per week are paid a full-time salary."


http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/non-permanent-teachers/cids-explained/

mirrorwall14

katydid wrote: »

If a CID contract is under 18 hours a week, it's an hourly rate. Over 18, and you'e paid in the same way as a permanent teacher, with holiday pay.

But if the contract is CIDable then it would have been an hourly rate over the summer too? Like I was on 15rs first year, I was paid over summer, 18 year too and paid over the summer and finally 22 year three and paid over the summer

katydid

mollytev32 wrote: »

Sorry yes...Every week...thanks for your help...The vec have a history with fighting us on everything...I won't give up though...finally get cid and I feel very few benefits so far

I know what you mean. My VEC (ETB) is the same. You'd think it was their own money they are paying out.

I take it you're a member of TUI. Get them onto it.

mollytev32

I'm with the into..quoted exactly wat u said der to vec and they said that's only in post primary and I don't qualify...

katydid

mollytev32 wrote: »

I'm with the into..quoted exactly wat u said der to vec and they said that's only in post primary and I don't qualify...

That's wrong. If you are in FE, that is counted as post primary in terms of pay, school year, and everything. If you are in a different sector, such as Youthreach, it might be more problematical. The union will know.

mollytev32

katydid wrote: »

That's wrong. If you are in FE, that is counted as post primary in terms of pay, school year, and everything. If you are in a different sector, such as Youthreach, it might be more problematical. The union will know.

We're classed as primary...we work primary year..

katydid

mollytev32 wrote: »

We're classed as primary...we work primary year..

Ah ok. That may be a problem, then. So are you INTO or TUI?

mollytev32

katydid wrote: »

Ah ok. That may be a problem, then. So are you INTO or TUI?

Into...u would imagine a cid is a cid no matter where u work

rainbowtrout

katydid wrote: »

If a CID contract is under 18 hours a week, it's an hourly rate. Over 18, and you'e paid in the same way as a permanent teacher, with holiday pay.

No it's not. Loads of teachers in my school on CID contracts for less than 18 hours. Paid pro rata. Paid for summer holidays.

11 hour contract = half pay of a 22 hour contract.

katydid

mollytev32 wrote: »

Into...u would imagine a cid is a cid no matter where u work

Well, the number of hours would differ at primary level, presumably. Difficult one, best let the union deal with it.

endacl

katydid wrote: »

If a CID contract is under 18 hours a week, it's an hourly rate. Over 18, and you'e paid in the same way as a permanent teacher, with holiday pay.

Not so. My CID is well under 18hpw, and I get paid over holidays.

katydid

endacl wrote: »

Not so. My CID is well under 18hpw, and I get paid over holidays.

That's strange. The 18 hours thing is supposed to be the marker, as you'll see from union websites. Lucky you!

rainbowtrout

I think your VEC are taking you for a ride.

I just had a look at the INTO website because I'm not completely familar with primary school teachers working conditions, BUT from what I'm reading contract conditions are the exact same as secondary.

TEMPORARY TEACHERS & HOLIDAY PAY

The DES have issued Circular 61/2010 in relation to the payment of summer holiday pay for whole time fixed-term teachers and also for part-time fixed term teachers. Click here to view Circular 61/2010

Whole Time Fixed-Term Teachers
In respect of whole time fixed-term teachers the following will apply:

Teachers who commence employment during the period 1st September to the first working day of November and remain in employment on a fixed term contract for the full school year shall be paid until the 31st August. Prior to this whole time fixed-term teachers had to take up an appointment on or before the 1st working day in October in order to be paid until 31st August.
A fixed term teacher who commences employment after the first working day in November and continues in a fixed term capacity until 30th June will not get paid for the summer vacation unless s/he secures a further fixed term (temporary) teaching post or a permanent post from the first working day of the following school year (normally 1st September). The retrospective holiday pay entitlement will then be calculated as follows:
If the teacher took up the fixed term (temporary) post after the first working day in November but prior to 1st April and continues in employment as a fixed term (temporary) teacher until 30th June then to receive retrospective holiday pay for the summer period (which would not be payable until the new school year), the teacher must have secured a contract for the entire new school year or a contract that will not expire any earlier than one year after the start date of the original fixed term contract.
If the teacher took up a fixed term (temporary) post after 1st April and continues in employment as a fixed term (temporary) teacher until 30th June then retrospective payment of holiday pay for the summer period will be made one year on from the start date of the initial contract provided the teacher has served in either a fixed term (temporary) post or permanent post for the entire 12 months period.
Fixed Term/Part Time Registered Teachers in a Primary School
Part-time teachers who are employed for the full school year to provide teaching for a number of hours during each week should be offered a pro-rata contract. A pro rata contract will normally run from 1st September to the 31st August. However pro rata contracts may commence during the period 1st September to the first working day of November.

A part time registered teacher on a pro rata contract shall be paid on the Department payroll from the date of commencement of the contract until the 31st August. This is subject to the employment having commenced on or before the first working day of November and to the teacher continuing to be employed in the same school. The rate of pay for July and August will be the rate payable to the teacher on 30th June. The updated version of the Primary Teachers appointment form for the school year in question should be completed for all new regular part-time appointments and forwarded to the Primary Teachers Payroll. This form is available on the Department website.

Part Time Teachers Appointed After 1st November
A part-time teacher who commences employment after the first working day in November shall be paid on an hourly basis. The hourly rate of pay is calculated by dividing the appropriate annual rate of salary by 915. These teachers will not be paid throughout July and August as their hourly rate is inclusive of holiday pay.

Claims for the payment of these part-time teachers should be submitted through the On Line Claim System by completing the Appointments Section of the OLCS.

The number of part time hours sanctioned per week is based on a maximum of 37 weeks for the school year. Therefore any hours worked in excess of the 37 week threshold will not be paid for by the Department.

Now I know you said you were in a special school, but VEC treat you like primary school teachers.

All of the bolded bits are what I think are important. My reading of it, is that you should be getting paid for the holidays. More importantly, you should have been paid for the summer holidays for the last 3 years (presuming you got CID after 3 years). Get back on to your union, and hang the bastards out to dry.

Start with your contracts for the last three years, if you have been paid for a fixed number of hours for the last 3 years from Sept - June, then you should have been on a pro rata contract, not fixed term for those 3 years. If you don't have copies of your contracts get them from your VEC. You can also use timetables and payslips to show hours worked. Get this information to your area rep to fight your case.

PS if your union are get nowhere with this, take them to the Labour Court.

endacl

katydid wrote: »

That's strange. The 18 hours thing is supposed to be the marker, as you'll see from union websites. Lucky you!

Oh, don't get me wrong. Most other aspects of dealing with both the VEC/ETB and TUI have been infuriating to the point of being soul destroying. 12 years in, I work on autopilot with zero goodwill left in the tank. What little energy I have left for teaching is spent preventing my students suffering as a result of that. They'd swear I love what I'm doing! Ive decided to give it one more year max before walking away. A lot of colleagues where I am seem to feel the same way. I'll probably end up refocusing efforts into one of the several other jobs I have had in order to prop up my teaching 'job'. Feck it. They pay more and I'm my own boss.

mirrorwall14

Katydid you are getting mixed up I think. The 18hr reference point at second level is the switch to full time pay. Provided you state that you are willing to work the 22hrs then they have to pay you for 22 even if you are contracted for 18. 18 is therefore the golden number of hours but it has no relationship asfaik to whether you are paid over the summer or not

katydid

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Katydid you are getting mixed up I think. The 18hr reference point at second level is the switch to full time pay. Provided you state that you are willing to work the 22hrs then they have to pay you for 22 even if you are contracted for 18. 18 is therefore the golden number of hours but it has no relationship asfaik to whether you are paid over the summer or not

I'm basing it on what the ASTI site says; that under 18 hours, you are paid the hourly rate. I'm assuming that means you are paid just for the hour, and not for holidays. It's not clear.

Moody_mona

katydid wrote: »

I'm basing it on what the ASTI site says; that under 18 hours, you are paid the hourly rate. I'm assuming that means you are paid just for the hour, and not for holidays. It's not clear.

You get paid pro rata and that continues over the holidays.

katydid

Moody_mona wrote: »

You get paid pro rata and that continues over the holidays.

Ah ok. Good.

spurious

You might be working in a primary special school but you are supplied by the ETB and working for the ETB. Your situation would be the same as many other ETB staff working in all sorts of special schools. I know the school I worked in had something like 15 such centres (including what were nominally primary schools) attached to it and all those people were members of our TUI branch.

katydid

spurious wrote: »

You might be working in a primary special school but you are supplied by the ETB and working for the ETB. Your situation would be the same as many other ETB staff working in all sorts of special schools. I know the school I worked in had something like 15 such centres (including what were nominally primary schools) attached to it and all those people were members of our TUI branch.

Well, presumably the INTO have accepted him/her...

mollytev32

So it seems because of the type of school were in we have less rights as those in primary or secondary...we don't fit into their little boxes so we can b messed around it seems

spurious

katydid wrote: »

Well, presumably the INTO have accepted him/her...

I hope they have negotiating rights with the ETB, otherwise it's a waste of the OP's money.

ustazjoseph

There have been a lot of CID contracts issued to part- time ,adult/further ed staff in literacy programmes lately . Traditionally these teachers would have had various hours ,day and night , contracts ended each June with no guarantees for the following Sept.
I suspect someone in the ETB puzzle factory has decided to lump the OP in with these guys and made a mess of the situation. Get union - on side . if ETB are paying one probably should be in TUI?

mollytev32

To b honest through union INTO have been really good...They have been ringing me constantly to see how things are panning out...They told me about a circular out in sept 2015 dat states teachers employed on definite hrs for the school year can no longer pay teachers rolled up holiday pay and that it must be paid throughout the full year ie sept to end of august...when I quoted circular 15 to the etb they had never heard of it and said they would get hr manager to research it and get bak to me...

spurious

mollytev32 wrote: »

To b honest through union INTO have been really good...They have been ringing me constantly to see how things are panning out...They told me about a circular out in sept 2015 dat states teachers employed on definite hrs for the school year can no longer pay teachers rolled up holiday pay and that it must be paid throughout the full year ie sept to end of august...when I quoted circular 15 to the etb they had never heard of it and said they would get hr manager to research it and get bak to me...

But do representatives from the INTO go in to speak to the official side in the ETB, or do they just give you information?

The TUI speak on a monthly basis to your ETB and deal with all sorts of things including personal cases, whcih yours sounds like it would be.

You should not have to be approaching the ETB yourself about these things.

mollytev32

to b honest I'm only in the union a year or so and this whole cid thing is the first time I've needed them...they were a big help in securing my cid but suppose I wasn't aware how much to expect from them...They certainly don't meet with etb on regular basis if at all....just all my other colleagues are with into and so I just followed suit..

mirrorwall14

What you need to ask the INTO is 'Do you have negotiating rights with my ETB'? If they say no then you are in the wrong Union. If they say yes then you should be asking them to do the negotiation. I had a contracts issue at the start of this year and the TUI handled almost all of it once I gave them the relevant info

spurious

Small quiet reminder to avoid text speak when posting here.
Thanking thee, one and all.

Moody_mona

The new circular on CIDs was published today. It may help your situation.

http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/significant-gain-for-temporary-teachers//back_to/asti-home/