Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Please note that it is not permitted to have referral links posted in your signature. Keep these links contained in the appropriate forum. Thank you.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2055940817/signature-rules

An Ecar cost of ownership

Options
  • 26-03-2015 8:31am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭


    Hi, all

    I used aCar application to record and track all my ICE car expences aka purchase cost, refills, repairs, check ups. Virtually every cent I spent on it for the time I owned was recorded, so I had a perfect idea how much it cost me per day, month, mile, average distance covered, consumption... Everything I needed.

    I am struggling to find a similar application that would do very same thing for my Leaf.
    What experience do you have in recording your everyday expences? I find it hard to follow... Hopefully in a weeks time I will be much more confident in sharing data and records I have collected.


Comments

  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I worked out based on my mileage that the fuel savings over the (60 mpg) prius is paying over half the repayments on the Leaf including maintenance and motor tax savings.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭peposhi


    I worked out based on my mileage that the fuel savings over the (60 mpg) prius is paying over half the repayments on the Leaf including maintenance and motor tax savings.


    I've done a similar comparison and based on it decided that is a better option for me to replace the ICE with a Leaf.
    But an app that allows me simply to add the every day/week/month expenses would be really handy. It's for better tracking of the record really. The over all result is clear - EV wins it all the way for me :)


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    What app were you using?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭peposhi


    kceire wrote: »
    What app were you using?


    aCar for Android phone... the pro version. I find it brilliant for an ICE car. Not suitable for an EV though


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭reboot


    peposhi wrote: »
    Hi, all

    I used aCar application to record and track all my ICE car expences aka purchase cost, refills, repairs, check ups. Virtually every cent I spent on it for the time I owned was recorded, so I had a perfect idea how much it cost me per day, month, mile, average distance covered, consumption... Everything I needed.

    I am struggling to find a similar application that would do very same thing for my Leaf.
    What experience do you have in recording your everyday expences? I find it hard to follow... Hopefully in a weeks time I will be much more confident in sharing data and records I have collected.
    So far I have saved over 2 grand in fuel in the Zoe,and charging on AC about 40mins on average for a 100 mile range. A man will be along soon to tell you I haven,t.


  • Advertisement
  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    160 Kms on 40 min AC ? that's a lot. I could squeeze that from the Leaf from a 100% charge @ between 60-80 Kph level ground and very light breeze. Possibly at higher speeds in Summer, yet to be tested but I'd die of pure boredom because in the leaf you think you're doing 80 Kph and you're at 140 Kph !

    I will save the guts of €2400 a year on petrol in the prius that's at 60 mpg average per tank, though when I say "save", if I wanted to save money I wouldn't have bought a new car to begin with so my justification was that I can save that € 240 odd per month on fuel and it pays half the repayments PM excluding maintenance and motor tax savings, also excluding electricity costs. I get a good top up at the fast chargers so it is dirt cheap to run.

    I estimate that I need about 25 Kwh daily for 85 mile round trip, 30 Kwh from the mains based on a best guess of an 80% efficient charger in the Leaf. (must get a meter on the plug).

    So 30 Kwh daily ( not driving like a granny) costs € 13.50 per week 5 days for 85 miles per day or 425 miles on night rate leccy, Bord Gais, you can get Tesco vouchers for bord Gais too !

    However this is if I were to drive 5 days per week, I work shift so it's hard to calculate my usage because I've to charge durniing the day when I come off night shift + I get a good lot of free leccy from the fast chargers, so this balances out any peak rate charging I do and more because it's free.

    Still for anyone doing this kind of commute €13.50 per week is dirt cheap. If you drive slower and don;t accelerate as hard as I do then you'll get away with less Kwh, but where would the fun be in that ? :D


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 194 ✭✭a postere


    I don't want to be one of those "first adopters" who financially try these things out for the rest of us.

    When you take everything into account from depreciation to battery costs etc. to getting the wiring done at home, buying leads etc. how much does a more expensive to buy EV save for someone who was say spending about 40 a week on petrol ?

    If they were directly financially cheaper than buying the equivalent sized traditional engine car, I take it a lot more people would be using them ?

    Fair play to ye for trying them out for us though.

    I'll adopt them when they are better proven and guaranteed to work out as a better deal.

    I wish they weren't so darned ugly though, why is it necessary to give them such ugly styling ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭Sabre Man


    Battery prices are coming down all the time. In a few years EVs may be less expensive to buy he ICE cars.

    Source: https://transportevolved.com/2015/04/14/new-study-suggests-electric-car-battery-prices-at-tipping-point-for-mass-production/


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    a postere wrote: »
    When you take everything into account from depreciation to battery costs etc. to getting the wiring done at home, buying leads etc. how much does a more expensive to buy EV save for someone who was say spending about 40 a week on petrol ?

    The Leaf in Ireland holds it's value more than all the cars of it's class bar the premium brands which is to be expected. I bet the E-Golf will hold it's value more than the Pertol/Diesel version.

    The U.K has a flood of ex lease Leaf's so they sell them off cheap to get rid of them but that's the case for a lot of car's there There's a hell of a lot more lease cars there than the total car sales in Ireland.
    a postere wrote: »
    If they were directly financially cheaper than buying the equivalent sized traditional engine car, I take it a lot more people would be using them ?

    They are directly cheaper given depreciation which is not as much as most petrol/diesel cars, but even so they are still not attractive to most people because of range scares + the petrol/diesel does what most people want it to do and people can still afford petrol/diesel. But I wish a lot more people would take a good spin in the Leaf/I3 to realise how good electrics are to drive it could actually persuade a lot more people to change.

    Admittedly, I would not have bought the Leaf if it were our only car because my partner would not tolerate charging on a long trip every 60-80 miles. Some of our long trips would not be suited to EV and that's just the way it is until the longer range electrics come out in 2017.

    I do 85 miles a day in the leaf driving at decent speeds with a 10 min QC, I could probably get away with a little less to get me home.

    The Government need to do more to discourage Diesel cars. They are bad for the environment and human health, no question.
    a postere wrote: »
    Fair play to ye for trying them out for us though.

    I'll adopt them when they are better proven and guaranteed to work out as a better deal.

    They are a good deal to someone who keeps the car 3-5 years for someone who does 15-20 K miles a year, for someone who does 10-12 K miles a year they should get many years from the battery, but it's good to be cautious because it is unknown how the battery will survive in 10 years, so for 2nd hand buyers this will remain unknown for some years yet.

    The likes of the tesla modes S 85 Kwh battery will last the life of the car because the battery is so big it will be under a lot less stress and even a 30% battery loss will still get 180-200 miles range !

    According to Tesla the Model S battery in their prototype is still good after 300,000 miles.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 194 ✭✭a postere


    Thanks Mad Lad for writing that.

    We're a two car house and one of the cars does about 8k miles a year in short runs, no more than about 40 miles a day, so a used leaf might be our ideal second car.

    I'm actually looking to change that second car soon, and I've got about a 10k budget.

    Would a second hand UK leaf be worth a punt ?

    How much should I also budget for extras like leads and outdoor charger installation at home. (There's no public chargers anywhere near us, and charging at work is not an option)

    With our mileage of 8k miles a year, roughly how much would it cost in electricity from home for the week/year ?

    Is there anything else we should budget for as well.

    Cheers


  • Advertisement
  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    a postere wrote: »
    Thanks Mad Lad for writing that.

    No bother ! :)
    a postere wrote: »
    We're a two car house and one of the cars does about 8k miles a year in short runs, no more than about 40 miles a day, so a used leaf might be our ideal second car.

    Well my Leaf will be doing a minimum of 15,500 miles a year which is more than the diesel. I could even end up doing more !

    I have 25,000 Kms allowed on the Leaf on PCP for a year and if I go over that by say, 5000 Kms a year that would cost me 1200 Euro's. So that's another reason I drive the diesel for the really long drives a couple of times a year, to keep some miles off the Leaf.

    So my point being that you could do a lot more miles than 8K, you won't want to drive the ICE car and will use the Leaf as much as you can.
    a postere wrote: »
    I'm actually looking to change that second car soon, and I've got about a 10k budget.

    How many miles does the main car do a year ? you could keep the worst of the 2nd cars and flog the best one for more money. I guarantee, you won't want to drive the ICE car and any normal car with an engine, particularly a diesel will seem like an ancient pile of crap in comparison ! So keeping the worst car will mean you'll have more money to spend on the Leaf, the 2nd car can still do the really long drives, that is over 120 ish miles with a fast charge after the initial charge on the start of the journey.

    What are the two cars, make, model and fuel ? mileage ?
    a postere wrote: »
    Would a second hand UK leaf be worth a punt ?

    A 2nd hand Leaf will be a good car if the battery is good, but I think it will cost more than 10K. And the exchange rate is not so good these days + yu'll have to transport or drive it over. So take all this into consideration, not just the purchase price of the car then look at 2nd hand Irish leaf's and see if the trip/hassle if bringing a leaf over is worth it.

    The leaf should have all 12 battery bars, marked in red in the pic below. If any are missing then chances are it was abused and/or fast charged to death, you shouldn't loose the first capacity bar until around 60,000 +- miles for the 1st gen leaf. Which means a 15% loss in capacity. Which means for the 1st gen Leaf about 45 miles range at 80-100 kph.

    If you buy a Leaf and it shows all 12 Capacity bars it doesn't mean you've got 100% capacity still in the battery, it means it's anywhere between 100% and 85%. So you could buy the car and a week later loose the first capacity bar so there is a bluetooth OBD II and an app for your mobile called LeafSpy which gives a far more accurate indication of the health of the battery. It should tell you pretty much exactly what capacity is left.

    Battery-capacity-level-gauge.bmp

    a postere wrote: »
    How much should I also budget for extras like leads and outdoor charger installation at home. (There's no public chargers anywhere near us, and charging at work is not an option)

    Afaik, the U.K Leaf does not come with the cable to allow you to plug into the public chargers or your home evse but I would tell the garage you buy it off that you want it thrown in, it's a Type I to type II cable. It will cost about 145 UK Pounds for a 5 meter cable, anything shorter wouldn't be wise. This will also allow you lug into your home charge unit which will cost about 650 Euro's excluding installation cost. You'll need a 16 amp EVSE ( home charge unit) Maybe the garage can provide this for you also.

    The U.K Leaf's come with what's called the "granny cable" or properly called the portable EVSE which allows you to charge via an extension lead which should be enough over night but it's not an ideal solution for permanent means of charging.
    a postere wrote: »
    With our mileage of 8k miles a year, roughly how much would it cost in electricity from home for the week/year ?

    The Leaf (MK I) has an average consumption of 30 kwh per 100 miles (EPA rating)

    So, you calculate like this. 8000 miles divide by 100 gives you 80, you multiply 80 x 30 this gives you 2400, 2400 is the amount of Kwh you need to travel 8000 miles based on this EPA rating of 30 Kwh for 100 miles based on the MK I leaf which sounds right to me.

    So 2400 Kwh multiply by 0.09 or 9 cent per Kwh on night rate leccy with night meter installed costing €216 Euro's but you need to add 20% because the charger in the car is not 100% efficient it's about 80% efficient so this will consume more from the mains so the total cost should be around 260 Euro's to travel 8000 miles.

    This excluded free fast charger usage and normal street charger charging.

    Night meter costs about 50 Euro's extra a year in rental but you can use the washing machine/ dryer/ dish washer, immersion etc at night rate saving more.
    a postere wrote: »
    Is there anything else we should budget for as well.

    Cheers

    Not that I can think of at this time. :)

    SO to recap, if going to the U.K think of the total cost to buy including currency conversion costs, transport to and from + hassle, you might be lucky and find somewhere close to a port so you have to drive minimum distance, then the U.K fast charge network is not nearly as good as ours + there are different companies that require different access cards which is a nightmare and a terrible situation. That's like going to different garages to pay for fuel and one garage takes Pounds, another take Euro's and another Dollars ! madness ! at least here it's one company and one access card !


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 194 ✭✭a postere


    Thanks mad lad for that, I've a lot to digest there.

    It would definitely suit to replace one of our cars sometime with a leaf.

    A quick browse shows that 2010 Irish leafs with about 30-40k miles can be got for about €13.5k.

    Would the best plan be to try and keep one for 10 years, @ say 1200 / per depreciation (crude guess). Or keep one for 3 / 5 years and suffer perhaps a bit more deprecation (assuming I can get anyone to buy it after 3-5 years ?)
    In other words I'm trying to calculate the depreciation costs here (one of the largest costs of car ownership, before even fuel). Of course, ICE cars depreciate as well, though perhaps not as sharply, and an ICE car is usually much easier to sell on.

    I've got to remember, depending on how long I keep the 2010 leaf, will a dealer, never mind a private buyer want to take a chance on an 8 year old (if I keep it a min. 3 years) leaf ?

    How much are the annual servicing costs, I imagine they are somewhat less that an ICE ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭cros13


    A 2nd hand Leaf will be a good car if the battery is good, but I think it will cost more than 10K.

    Best prices in both Ireland and the UK for 2011 Leafs seem to be in the range of €12k to €13k.
    So you could buy the car and a week later loose the first capacity bar so there is a bluetooth OBD II and an app for your mobile called LeafSpy which gives a far more accurate indication of the health of the battery. It should tell you pretty much exactly what capacity is left.

    Make sure the seller has the car fully charged so that you can get an accurate read. Ireland and the UK have just about the perfect stable climate to keep the batteries in good condition. The expectation is that a Mk1 Leaf battery would lose around 3% capacity per year here. The Mk2 (2013 forward) has improved battery chemistry and loss would be further reduced.
    You'll need a 16 amp EVSE ( home charge unit) Maybe the garage can provide this for you also.

    Better to get a 32 amp. There is no difference in price or availability.
    The U.K Leaf's come with what's called the "granny cable" or properly called the portable EVSE which allows you to charge via an extension lead which should be enough over night but it's not an ideal solution for permanent means of charging.

    It can take up to 12 hours to charge on a granny cable and there is a lot more loss from supply to battery than a proper EVSE, so it will cost you slightly more to charge as well. A proper EVSE is weatherproof when in use and can be located outside, whereas the granny cable is not weatherproof at the socket end.

    a postere wrote: »
    Would the best plan be to try and keep one for 10 years, @ say 1200 / per depreciation (crude guess). Or keep one for 3 / 5 years and suffer perhaps a bit more deprecation (assuming I can get anyone to buy it after 3-5 years ?)
    In other words I'm trying to calculate the depreciation costs here (one of the largest costs of car ownership, before even fuel). Of course, ICE cars depreciate as well, though perhaps not as sharply, and an ICE car is usually much easier to sell on.

    I've got to remember, depending on how long I keep the 2010 leaf, will a dealer, never mind a private buyer want to take a chance on an 8 year old (if I keep it a min. 3 years) leaf ?

    When the higher range EVs come on the market in 2017/2018 depreciation will hit quite hard. But on average mileage you'll have saved 2/3s of the price of the car in running costs by then anyway.

    So far, annual depreciation on the 2010 Leafs has been less than half the saving in running costs over a comparable diesel.
    a postere wrote: »
    How much are the annual servicing costs, I imagine they are somewhat less that an ICE ?

    Visual check once a year / 20,000km , which is largely optional. Brake Fluid and power steering fluid checked/changed every two years and keep your tyres in good nick. It's as close to zero maintenance as you can get.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 194 ✭✭a postere


    cros13 wrote: »
    So far, annual depreciation on the 2010 Leafs has been less than half the saving in running costs over a comparable diesel.

    Thanks for that, but for people with no electrical car knowledge like me, can you put that into simple comparable figures, e.g. in my case about 8-9k miles a year, if say I spent 10-13k on a petrol/diesel car instead of the leaf, and sold it again after 3 years, versus buying and selling a 2010 leaf and trying to sell it again in 3 years, and the difference in depreciation / total ownership and running costs.


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]



    I have 25,000 Kms allowed on the Leaf on PCP for a year and if I go over that by say, 5000 Kms a year that would cost me 1200 Euro's. So that's another reason I drive the diesel for the really long drives a couple of times a year, to keep some miles off the Leaf.

    When I said I'd be charged 1200 euro's excess, this was for 15,000 Kms not 5,000 Kms. And this would be at the end of the PCP contract in 3 years, but again a lot of this cost could be written off depending on what garage wants my business most.


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    a postere wrote: »
    Thanks for that, but for people with no electrical car knowledge like me, can you put that into simple comparable figures, e.g. in my case about 8-9k miles a year, if say I spent 10-13k on a petrol/diesel car instead of the leaf, and sold it again after 3 years, versus buying and selling a 2010 leaf and trying to sell it again in 3 years, and the difference in depreciation / total ownership and running costs.

    Currently all you really need to think about is that the leaf is holding it's value better than the equivalent petrol and diesel cars. Except the Premium brands ( Everyone wants a depressingly boring 1.6 TDI Golf zzzzzzz )

    However, given a degraded battery this could change and this is where the unknown is.

    It's hard to say what the depreciation will be in the coming years but the battery is proving to be pretty reliable and the battery from 2014 seems to be even better as in lasting longer, it's speculated Nissan or NEC have made changes to the chemistry but it's all kept a secret nobody knows exactly what has changed.

    The BMW I3 battery, E-Golf etc could very well last the entire life of the car with little degradation and in the new 141+ leafs.

    If you're only doing 40 miles a day max then you could easily get many years from the Leaf but you need to make sure if you're buying 2nd hand you learn how to read the LeafSpy data, it's very easy and get a bluetooth dongle and test the battery yourself and don't depend on some half assed Nissan battery report !


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 194 ✭✭a postere


    I see what you mean. Thanks for the help.

    New and PCP is probably the best way to go, if you were going to spend 30k on a brand new diesel anyway, but I'm not in that situation.

    I can see now why 2nd hand electrical cars are complicated to predict overall costing at least for the next few years until they settle into the market properly.

    I might end up paying more over 3 years for a 10-13k value petrol/diesel car and doing 8k miles a year, but at least the overall total ownership costs including depreciation and maintenance and resale value are much more predictable and easier to estimate, and better the devil you know and all that. And there is always a risk I'll be stuck with a old third hand older technology EV that no one wants. I can't see any early-ish adopters wanting one.


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    a postere wrote: »
    a postere wrote: »
    New and PCP is probably the best way to go, if you were going to spend 30k on a brand new diesel anyway, but I'm not in that situation.

    Yes if you're buying new and changing every 3 years the EV makes perfect sense and you will save a lot of money over the most boring diesel car.
    a postere wrote: »
    I can see now why 2nd hand electrical cars are complicated to predict overall costing at least for the next few years until they settle into the market properly.

    As it stands now, Nissan Ireland will not entertain the Idea of replacing worn batteries. You'd have to bring it up North.

    Nissan Ireland being a franchise have to buy the batteries from Nissan Motor Co and currently there is no real marker for 2nd hand ev batteries but this will change and the ESB are looking into the possibility of using them to store renewable energy.

    I presume they also don't want the hassle as they see it to replace a battery but it's a lot less hassle than replacing an engine !!! It could just kill you if you don;t know what you're doing or take short cuts.
    a postere wrote: »
    I might end up paying more over 3 years for a 10-13k value petrol/diesel car and doing 8k miles a year, but at least the overall total ownership costs including depreciation and maintenance and resale value are much more predictable and easier to estimate, and better the devil you know and all that. And there is always a risk I'll be stuck with a old third hand older technology EV that no one wants. I can't see any early-ish adopters wanting one.

    There is also the cost of not just the battery to think about but also the electrical components in a Leaf if they fail on a 2nd hand EV out of warranty. They are very expensive and usually not repaired but whole modules replaced. In general though the Leaf is proving to be a very reliable car.

    Many people dismissed the Prius when it was released due to the complexity of it's drive train but it turned out to be one of the most reliable cars ever built and one of the most economical despite it being an automatic petrol, it puts many diesel manuals to shame !


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 194 ✭✭a postere


    Mad lad, I think you have it well sussed.
    Going PCP and comparing it to a brand new 25k diesel car is the way to look at it, and done that way it makes a lot of sense, if you're in that area of the market anyway.

    At my end of the market, second hand used, 8k miles a year, and 10-13k budget, it's a bit too risky for me.


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    a postere wrote: »
    Mad lad, I think you have it well sussed.
    Going PCP and comparing it to a brand new 25k diesel car is the way to look at it, and done that way it makes a lot of sense, if you're in that area of the market anyway.

    At my end of the market, second hand used, 8k miles a year, and 10-13k budget, it's a bit too risky for me.

    It is a risk, It's a risk with any ICE car also, many people have had to face large repair bills to repair out of warranty ICE cars. Only thing with the Leaf is the availability of parts at the moment is low.

    The MK I 2010-mid July 2013 were pretty reliable, only fault really was a charge control unit but this is rare and was rectified on later models, currently there are no known issues that I can find for any 2013+ leaf.

    My Neighbours daughter has had to face high repair bills for 2 diesels she bought So it's luck of the draw really.

    In general I think the Leaf will be more reliable than a lot of cars out there.


  • Advertisement
  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Here's a 2011 Leaf with 18,900 miles in the U.K 11,100 Euro's (excluding transport and currency conversion fees)

    http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201503171819543/sort/default/radius/1501/make/nissan/quicksearch/true/usedcars/model/leaf/onesearchad/used/page/1/channel/cars/postcode/ll652at?logcode=p

    Still got all 12 battery capacity bars, but again you need LeafSpy to know exactly how much it's degraded. Probably not much. Private seller.

    Irish Leaf, 12,500 Euro's 38,000 miles.

    http://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/nissan/leaf/used-2011-nissan-leaf-westmeath-fpa-201502229978421

    Add says "private sale" but at the end is this

    " We Specialise is Electric and Hybrid Vehicles only, Other Nissan leafs also in stock."

    Doesn't sound private to me !

    A 2012 11k miles 14,900 Euro's sounds better value even if it's more expensive.

    http://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/nissan/leaf/used-2012-nissan-leaf-westmeath-fpa-201507230906688


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭cros13


    The battery isn't a real issue. The warranty is 8 years / 160,000km

    Just to put the running costs in perspective.

    | 2011 Leaf | 2011 Toyota Auris 1.4D
    Purchase price | €13,000 | €14,000
    Road Tax | €120 | €200
    Insurance Group | 20 | 11
    Insurance Discount | -20% | -0
    Fuel cost/5000km | €31.50 | €324.75
    Servicing due every | 20,000km | 15,000km
    Avg. Servicing Cost | €100 | €300
    What if you skip a service | :D | :(
    NCT sections automatically passed | 7 | 0


    Fuel comparison based on night rate electricity at 7.4c/kWh, my own consumption numbers from November 2014 and diesel at 129.9c/l with an average consumption of 5L/100km (the quoted combined for the year/model). That's not a typo, it is literally 10 times cheaper.

    Servicing costs based on the last service for my 141 Leaf and the average of the last three services for a family member's Toyota D4D


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 194 ✭✭a postere


    cros13 wrote: »
    The battery isn't a real issue. The warranty is 8 years / 160,000km

    What battery range do Nissan guarantee for the first 8 years ?
    cros13 wrote: »
    Just to put the running costs in perspective.

    | 2011 Leaf | 2011 Toyota Auris 1.4D
    Purchase price | €13,000 | €14,000
    Road Tax | €120 | €200
    Insurance Group | 20 | 11
    Insurance Discount | -20% | -0
    Fuel cost/5000km | €31.50 | €324.75
    Servicing due every | 20,000km | 15,000km
    Avg. Servicing Cost | €100 | €300
    What if you skip a service | :D | :(
    NCT sections automatically passed | 7 | 0


    Fuel comparison based on night rate electricity at 7.4c/kWh, my own consumption numbers from November 2014 and diesel at 129.9c/l with an average consumption of 5L/100km (the quoted combined for the year/model). That's not a typo, it is literally 10 times cheaper.


    Cheers, that would save me roughly 1200 a year I reckon on running costs.
    To balance that, as depreciation is also a big cost, what would be the estimated value of the 2011 leaf be in say 5 years compared to the Auris, and what kind of range would be left in the leaf at that stage ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭cros13


    a postere wrote: »
    What battery range do Nissan guarantee for the first 8 years ?

    70% SoC (state of charge). Note that the maximum SoC on a new Leaf would not be 100% but somewhere between 97% and 98% due to manufacturing tolerances.

    What reduces the capacity in a Lithium Manganese battery like the Leaf's is excessive heat.

    EV wiki did a very detailed analysis of battery capacity in real life in differing climates: http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Battery_Capacity_Loss

    In hindsight, their predictions are even looking somewhat pessimistic.

    Their pessimistic estimate of time to degrade to 70% SoC in Dublin, Ireland: 9.7 Years

    But of course if you rapid charge the car 15 times a day, same as if you ran the Auris everywhere in 1st gear, they won't last that long.
    a postere wrote: »
    Cheers, that would save me roughly 1200 a year I reckon on running costs.
    To balance that, as depreciation is also a big cost, what would be the estimated value of the 2011 leaf be in say 5 years compared to the Auris, and what kind of range would be left in the leaf at that stage ?

    The Auris and the Leaf are now the same price new. The are two scenarios, if EVs become popular to new car buyers a 2011 Leaf will retain a lot of its value. If they don't I'd expect almost identical depreciation to the Auris. Most of the reason for the 2011 Leafs going for €13k is Year 1 depreciation due to the average car buyer perceiving EVs as a bit of a risk.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 194 ✭✭a postere


    Hmm dunno if I'm convinced, on leaping into buying a second hand leaf just yet. I think I'll wait until they are better established, if their sales numbers are going up every year, I'm sure there will be a load more of them on the roads in the next few years, and a much better known and predictable quantity then. But thanks for all the info and help folks.


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    A 4 year old leaf is going for about 14,500 K on carzone.

    Same for a 1.4 Diesel Auris similar mileage, But the Auris are mostly low spec and the Leaf particularly the MK I is a very high spec car and imo a lot better to drive and has no gears, an automatic Auris would easily cost 1200 Extra if one was even available.

    The leaf costs a fraction to run.

    What kind of range to expect depends on so many things and battery loss is usually gradual over the years. You can help maximize battery life by not leaving it sitting at 100% charge which even though is not a true 100% charge is still considered a very high state of charge.

    Charge to 80% when you don't need the full range. Try not let it go below 20%

    Cycling of the battery, 1 cycle is considered a 100%-turtle or 0% as the battery meter sees it. Shallow cycles are a lot better say, 30-70%.

    Don't fast charge to the point the battery temp meter hits 7 + bars.

    Time spent at a high state of charge and a hot battery.

    In Summer try keep it in the shade and not over hot tarmac or concrete.

    All the above will help maximise battery life

    If you need the range don't be afraid to use it. If you need to fast charge then do.


Advertisement