Manslaughter or not.

kneemos

If you called out to somebody you knew and because they stopped and turned around they were hit by a bus and killed would you be responsible for their death?

sunshine and showers

kneemos wrote: »

If you called out to somebody you knew and because they stopped and turned around they were hit by a bus and killed would you be responsible for their death?

No.

ballsymchugh

why would a fully functioning person stop in the middle of the road in front of a bus for whatever reason? why does there have to be someone else to blame for someone's idiocy?

so no!

5starpool

Not unless you had orchestrated the bus hitting them, then no. What a strange question.

wretcheddomain

It's a question of intention - did the individual intend to disrupt the movement of another person such that imminent death would result?

Questions such as the OP are meaningless without this type of context.

Hans Bricks

Sounds like a scene from Final Destination ...

"Hey Cindy wanna go see a movie with me tomorrow ?"

"Yah, sure thing Corey lemme just check my ...." *ER ERRRRR* SPLAT

Dog of Tears

Depends on what you said.

If it was "Look out for that bus!", then no.

But if it was "Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries".

Then, yes.

Kevin McCloud

The bus is at fault.

super_furry

Why do I feel than in a couple of years time I'll be reading about this thread at kneemos' sentencing report?

kneemos

wretcheddomain wrote: »

It's a question of intention - did the individual intend to disrupt the movement of another person such that imminent death would result?

Questions such as the OP are meaningless without this type of context.

No intention,it would be hard to orchestrate anyway.
The person died as a direct result of being shouted at though.

Arsemageddon

Depends whether or not you were driving the bus when you called out to the deceased

The caller bears no responsibility, either morally or legally. There's a reason why we have a word for these things: accident. Sometimes it's just a case of wrong place and wrong time.

conorh91

kneemos wrote: »

If you called out to somebody you knew and because they stopped and turned around they were hit by a bus and killed would you be responsible for their death?

Were you driving along that bus when you called her into the street?
Then yes. Otherwise, no.

FluffyAngel

Hi Kneemos

aside from the question that you asked ,this thread says to me that there is a deep rooted inner question you have either for yourself or sombody you know

if it is affecting you/sombody you know to a level where your looking for answers on boards,can i suggest that you contact a support orgnastion or seek help from a counsellor or local mental health team

or give the people in pieta house a ring ?

with the best will in the world boardies will give you superfical answers to a question that needs inner answers

Topper Harley

super_furry wrote: »

Why do I feel than in a couple of years time I'll be reading about this thread at kneemos' sentencing report?

Why would he be getting sentenced? It's the perfect crime and now he knows it.

JaseBelleVie

Thinly veiled "I'm trying to kill someone but make it look like an accident and seeing if I'll get away with it" thread.

sunshine and showers

kneemos wrote: »

The person died as a direct result of being shouted at though.

No, they didn't. There was an unforeseen exceptional intervening act - a novus actus interveniens in legal speak - that broke the chain of causation between your act of calling out and the person's death.

Jawgap

Simply, no.

There's no negligent act (the minimum required for manslaughter)

Topper Harley

Jawgap wrote: »

Simply, no.

There's no negligent act (the minimum required for manslaughter)

But there is motive and semen so OP's looking at first degree murder.

Eugene Norman

kneemos wrote: »

No intention,it would be hard to orchestrate anyway.
The person died as a direct result of being shouted at though.

No then. Of course not.

It would be murder if you orchestrated it btw.

The Backwards Man

If you come home to find Peter Falk rooting through your potted plants I'd be afraid. Very afraid. And not just because he's dead.

kneemos

FluffyAngel wrote: »

Hi Kneemos

aside from the question that you asked ,this thread says to me that there is a deep rooted inner question you have either for yourself or sombody you know

if it is affecting you/sombody you know to a level where your looking for answers on boards,can i suggest that you contact a support orgnastion or seek help from a counsellor or local mental health team

or give the people in pieta house a ring ?

with the best will in the world boardies will give you superfical answers to a question that needs inner answers

I'm touched.

But no.

Topper Harley

kneemos wrote: »

I'm touched.

But no.

Where were you touched?

darkpagandeath

Bus Driver at fault irrelevant what you shout.

Egginacup

kneemos wrote: »

If you called out to somebody you knew and because they stopped and turned around they were hit by a bus and killed would you be responsible for their death?

If you ordered a fucking pizza and the delivery guy came off his moped and died on the way to your gaff are you responsible for his death?

Actually if you ordered a pizza but then a minute later you called up and cancelled and then 15 minutes later the delivery guy slipped on an olive in the pizza kitchen and went flying face first into the oven and was baked to death (which wouldn't have happened if he was merrily scootering his way to your kip with your order that you cancelled, you murderous bastard) are you responsible for his death?

anncoates

We need to compile all of these in a separate thread and call it something like The Kneemos Dialogues.

kylith

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Bus Driver at fault irrelevant what you shout.

Some idiot steps out in front of him and stops, how is that his fault (assuming that he hadn't just driven through a red light).

Little CuChulainn

ballsymchugh wrote: »

why would a fully functioning person stop in the middle of the road in front of a bus for whatever reason? why does there have to be someone else to blame for someone's idiocy?

so no!

Reflex can be a dangerous thing. And there is a legal debate to be had over whether you can be held accountable over other peoples reactions to your actions. The prime example being if you shout fire in a crowded cinema can you be held responsible if someone gets trampled to death in the evacuation.

The Corinthian

wretcheddomain wrote: »

It's a question of intention - did the individual intend to disrupt the movement of another person such that imminent death would result?

No, manslaughter does not require intent. It can also be involuntary.

Candie wrote: »

The caller bears no responsibility, either morally or legally. There's a reason why we have a word for these things: accident. Sometimes it's just a case of wrong place and wrong time.

No, the caller could be deemed to have acted in a reckless manner, even if there was no intent to harm. Consider the same caller, but instead of crossing a street, the victim is on a tightrope with a deadly drop beneath him.

In this case the act of calling, which has a good chance of distracting the victim to the point they lose their balance, could be seen as reckless and the caller would be at least partially culpable for the results.

Jawgap wrote: »

There's no negligent act (the minimum required for manslaughter)

Depends on the jurisdiction.

Egginacup wrote: »

If you ordered a fucking pizza and the delivery guy came off his moped and died on the way to your gaff are you responsible for his death?

No, but ordering a pizza is not a reckless action (for the pizza guy). Calling out to someone where they could come to harm and when they need to concentrate on what they're doing, could well be seen as such. Different scenarios entirely.

Topper Harley

kylith wrote: »

Some idiot steps out in front of him and stops, how is that his fault (assuming that he hadn't just driven through a red light).

Of course it's the drivers fault, as well as the guy who stopped in the middle of the road.

If the driver sees someone crossing the road they have to be prepared for any eventuality, including someone stopping, stumbling or falling over right in front of them. If the driver couldn't stop in time he was going too fast and/or not paying enough attention.

Topper Harley

The Corinthian wrote: »

No, the caller could be deemed to have acted in a reckless manner, even if there was no intent to harm. Consider the same caller, but instead of crossing a street, the victim is on a tightrope with a deadly drop beneath him.

In this case the act of calling, which has a good chance of distracting the victim to the point they lose their balance, could be seen as reckless and the caller would be at least partially culpable for the results.

Another similar(ish) example would be the guy who committed suicide in Telford a couple of weeks ago.

Police are trying to identify the scumbags who goaded him to jump and are trying to come up with a charge to prosecute them under although I think that they will more likely be charged with being huge @ssholes rather than manslaughter.

KERSPLAT!

The Corinthian wrote: »

No, manslaughter does not require intent. It can also be involuntary.

No, the caller could be deemed to have acted in a reckless manner, even if there was no intent to harm. Consider the same caller, but instead of crossing a street, the victim is on a tightrope with a deadly drop beneath him.

In this case the act of calling, which has a good chance of distracting the victim to the point they lose their balance, could be seen as reckless and the caller would be at least partially culpable for the results.

Depends on the jurisdiction.

No, but ordering a pizza is not a reckless action (for the pizza guy). Calling out to someone where they could come to harm and when they need to concentrate on what they're doing, could well be seen as such. Different scenarios entirely.

What if I order pizza on a really windy night and the driver is blown off his moped, all because I'm too lazy to cook dinner, manslaughter..?

Badly Drunk Boy

The Backwards Man wrote: »

If you come home to find Peter Falk rooting through your potted plants I'd be afraid. Very afraid. And not just because he's dead.

Did you know that one of Pete Falk's daughters is a private detective in real life?

kneemos

Badly Drunk Boy wrote: »

Did you know that one of Pete Falk's daughters is a private detective in real life?

In her fathers footsteps.

It BeeMee

Badly Drunk Boy wrote: »

Did you know that one of Pete Falk's daughters is a private detective in real life?

I hope she called her agency "Falk Knows"

K4t

The Corinthian wrote: »

No, the caller could be deemed to have acted in a reckless manner, even if there was no intent to harm. Consider the same caller, but instead of crossing a street, the victim is on a tightrope with a deadly drop beneath him.

But the victim wasn't on a tightrope, nor was there a deadly drop. And even if they were, it's their own responsibility what decisions they make on the tightrope. If a person shouts from a distance: "I love you, please don't fall" and the tightrope walker falls to their death, does that imply reckless behaviour also? No, of course not. Maybe reckless behaviour on behalf of the tightrope walker.

In this case the act of calling, which has a good chance of distracting the victim to the point they lose their balance, could be seen as reckless and the caller would be at least partially culpable for the results.

Not legally responsible though. And definitely not manslaughter.

The Corinthian

KERSPLAT! wrote: »

What if I order pizza on a really windy night and the driver is blown off his moped, all because I'm too lazy to cook dinner, manslaughter..?

http://getdaddysomegin.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/tumbleweed.jpg

K4t wrote: »

But the victim wasn't on a tightrope, nor was there a deadly drop. And even if they were, it's their own responsibility what decisions they make on the tightrope. If a person shouts from a distance: "I love you, please don't fall" and the tightrope walker falls to their death, does that imply reckless behaviour also? No, of course not. Maybe reckless behaviour on behalf of the tightrope walker.

I'm afraid that's not how manslaughter works. Involuntary manslaughter is where there is no intent to kill, but the actions of another end up bringing this about. It could be due to negligence (e.g. a doctor not acting, or prescribing the wrong treatment, leading to death) or due to reckless behaviour (e.g. drunk driving). Even your example, shouting to someone who's on a tightrope, is a pretty stupid thing to do and depending on the jurisdiction, the law may see your action as reckless.

So even if unintentional - even if an 'accident' - you can still be guilty of manslaughter.

As to the tightrope example, I only used it to illustrate a scenario where it is more clear that the behaviour of the 'perpetrator' ultimately was causal to the death of the 'victim'.

Not legally responsible though. And definitely not manslaughter.

This ultimately depends on the legal jurisdiction. If you push someone and as a result they fall, hit their head and die, without the intent that this would happen, then in many jurisdictions this would probably not be manslaughter. However, in others, the push may be seen as 'excessive force' and thus lead to a manslaughter conviction.

So not 'definitely'.

K4t

The Corinthian wrote: »

http://getdaddysomegin.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/tumbleweed.jpg

I'm afraid that's not how manslaughter works. Involuntary manslaughter is where there is no intent to kill, but the actions of another end up bringing this about. It could be due to negligence (e.g. a doctor not acting, or prescribing the wrong treatment, leading to death) or due to reckless behaviour (e.g. drunk driving). Even your example, shouting to someone who's on a tightrope, is a pretty stupid thing to do and depending on the jurisdiction, the law may see your action as reckless.

So even if unintentional - even if an 'accident' - you can still be guilty of manslaughter.

Guilty of stupidity maybe, not manslaughter. I really cannot fathom how you can compare medical negligence and drunk driving to a person shouting "I love you" to a person walking on a tightrope. The personal responsibility lies with the individual walking the tightrope.

This ultimately depends on the legal jurisdiction. If you push someone and as a result they fall, hit their head and die, without the intent that this would happen, then in many jurisdictions this would probably not be manslaughter. However, in others, the push may be seen as 'excessive force' and thus lead to a manslaughter conviction.

So not 'definitely'.

Now you've jumped from speech to physical interference. The two are not the same. My point, and apologies if I wasn't completely clear, is that charging people for what they say as someone is killed is ridiculous, and enters the realm of hate crime legislation i.e. not a good thing.

The Corinthian

K4t wrote: »

Guilty of stupidity maybe, not manslaughter. I really cannot fathom how you can compare medical negligence and drunk driving to a person shouting "I love you" to a person walking on a tightrope. The personal responsibility lies with the individual walking the tightrope.

Sorry, but that's not how it works in a lot of jurisdictions. In most, I'd imagine that shouting "I love you" and causing that person to loose their balance and fall to their death would not be seen as manslaughter, but in others it may well be.

Now you've jumped from speech to physical interference. The two are not the same.

Doesn't matter if the act caused the death, the person did or should have known better and it was reckless or dangerous. It doesn't even have to be physical interference to constitute manslaughter:

http://www.mediaite.com/online/teen-charged-with-manslaughter-for-encouraging-friend-to-commit-suicide/

Beyond that, it really comes down to how it's seen in any jurisdiction - you'd be right in many, but not all. And that is my point.

K4t

The Corinthian wrote: »

Doesn't matter if the act caused the death, the person did or should have known better and it was reckless or dangerous. It doesn't even have to be physical interference to constitute manslaughter:

So the person who shouts something should know better, as opposed to the person walking on a tightrope...

http://www.mediaite.com/online/teen-charged-with-manslaughter-for-encouraging-friend-to-commit-suicide/

Beyond that, it really comes down to how it's seen in any jurisdiction - you'd be right in many, but not all. And that is my point.

She'll never see the inside of a prison. If I tell you to go and kill yourself, and a week later you commit suicide, that would mean I am complicit in your death and could be charged with assisted suicide or manslaughter! Madness. Prosecutors and legislators with too much money and time on their hands.

Depraved

Kevin McCloud wrote: »

The bus is at fault.

Except in America. Then it's the fault of the guy in the factory who installed the brakes on the bus when it was built.

Topper Harley

Depraved wrote: »

Except in America. Then it's the fault of the guy in the factory who installed the brakes on the bus when it was built.

Not just America. In Peru an aircraft technician was found guilty of negligent homicide after he forgot to remove some tape covering a static port on an aircraft after he had cleaned it leading to the crash of Aeroperú Flight 603.

More info here: 10 Controversial Cases of Negligent Homicide

I haven't actually read that article yet but will later so can't comment on any of the other cases until then. Looks interesting and possibly relevant to this thread though.

The Corinthian

K4t wrote: »

So the person who shouts something should know better, as opposed to the person walking on a tightrope...

I'm sorry, I thought we were discussing what manslaughter is legally, not whether this makes sense, or makes sense to you.

Wacker The Attacker

They probably deserve to get knocked for being stupid.

DarkyHughes

No, but as a judge I lock you up in a nut house & throw away the key for asking such a strange question.