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Manslaughter or not.

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  • 24-03-2015 8:54pm
    #1
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,419 ✭✭✭✭


    If you called out to somebody you knew and because they stopped and turned around they were hit by a bus and killed would you be responsible for their death?


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    #2
    sunshine and showers
    Registered Users Posts: 2,027 ✭✭✭sunshine and showers


    kneemos wrote: »
    If you called out to somebody you knew and because they stopped and turned around they were hit by a bus and killed would you be responsible for their death?

    No.


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    #3
    ballsymchugh
    Registered Users Posts: 7,936 ✭✭✭ballsymchugh


    why would a fully functioning person stop in the middle of the road in front of a bus for whatever reason? why does there have to be someone else to blame for someone's idiocy?

    so no!


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    #4
    5starpool
    Subscribers Posts: 32,850 ✭✭✭✭5starpool


    Not unless you had orchestrated the bus hitting them, then no. What a strange question.


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    #5
    wretcheddomain
    Registered Users Posts: 3,094 ✭✭✭wretcheddomain


    It's a question of intention - did the individual intend to disrupt the movement of another person such that imminent death would result?

    Questions such as the OP are meaningless without this type of context.


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    #6
    Hans Bricks
    Registered Users Posts: 850 ✭✭✭Hans Bricks


    Sounds like a scene from Final Destination ...

    "Hey Cindy wanna go see a movie with me tomorrow ?"

    "Yah, sure thing Corey lemme just check my ...." *ER ERRRRR* SPLAT


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    #7
    Dog of Tears
    Closed Accounts Posts: 812 ✭✭✭Dog of Tears


    Depends on what you said.

    If it was "Look out for that bus!", then no.

    But if it was "Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries".

    Then, yes.


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    #8
    Kevin McCloud
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,797 ✭✭✭Kevin McCloud


    The bus is at fault.


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    #9
    super_furry
    Registered Users Posts: 27,322 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    Why do I feel than in a couple of years time I'll be reading about this thread at kneemos' sentencing report?


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    #10
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,419 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    wretcheddomain wrote: »
    It's a question of intention - did the individual intend to disrupt the movement of another person such that imminent death would result?

    Questions such as the OP are meaningless without this type of context.

    No intention,it would be hard to orchestrate anyway.
    The person died as a direct result of being shouted at though.


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    #11
    Arsemageddon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭Arsemageddon


    Depends whether or not you were driving the bus when you called out to the deceased


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    #12
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The caller bears no responsibility, either morally or legally. There's a reason why we have a word for these things: accident. Sometimes it's just a case of wrong place and wrong time.


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    #13
    conorh91
    Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭conorh91


    kneemos wrote: »
    If you called out to somebody you knew and because they stopped and turned around they were hit by a bus and killed would you be responsible for their death?
    Were you driving along that bus when you called her into the street?
    Then yes. Otherwise, no.


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    #14
    FluffyAngel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 518 ✭✭✭FluffyAngel


    Hi Kneemos

    aside from the question that you asked ,this thread says to me that there is a deep rooted inner question you have either for yourself or sombody you know

    if it is affecting you/sombody you know to a level where your looking for answers on boards,can i suggest that you contact a support orgnastion or seek help from a counsellor or local mental health team

    or give the people in pieta house a ring ?

    with the best will in the world boardies will give you superfical answers to a question that needs inner answers


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    #15
    Topper Harley
    Registered Users Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭Topper Harley


    super_furry wrote: »
    Why do I feel than in a couple of years time I'll be reading about this thread at kneemos' sentencing report?

    Why would he be getting sentenced? It's the perfect crime and now he knows it.


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    #16
    JaseBelleVie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 936 ✭✭✭JaseBelleVie


    Thinly veiled "I'm trying to kill someone but make it look like an accident and seeing if I'll get away with it" thread.


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    #17
    sunshine and showers
    Registered Users Posts: 2,027 ✭✭✭sunshine and showers


    kneemos wrote: »
    The person died as a direct result of being shouted at though.

    No, they didn't. There was an unforeseen exceptional intervening act - a novus actus interveniens in legal speak - that broke the chain of causation between your act of calling out and the person's death.


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    #18
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Simply, no.

    There's no negligent act (the minimum required for manslaughter)


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    #19
    Topper Harley
    Registered Users Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭Topper Harley


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Simply, no.

    There's no negligent act (the minimum required for manslaughter)

    But there is motive and semen so OP's looking at first degree murder.


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    #20
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    kneemos wrote: »
    No intention,it would be hard to orchestrate anyway.
    The person died as a direct result of being shouted at though.

    No then. Of course not.

    It would be murder if you orchestrated it btw.


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    #21
    The Backwards Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,299 ✭✭✭✭The Backwards Man


    If you come home to find Peter Falk rooting through your potted plants I'd be afraid. Very afraid. And not just because he's dead.


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    #22
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,419 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    FluffyAngel wrote: »
    Hi Kneemos

    aside from the question that you asked ,this thread says to me that there is a deep rooted inner question you have either for yourself or sombody you know

    if it is affecting you/sombody you know to a level where your looking for answers on boards,can i suggest that you contact a support orgnastion or seek help from a counsellor or local mental health team

    or give the people in pieta house a ring ?

    with the best will in the world boardies will give you superfical answers to a question that needs inner answers

    I'm touched.

    But no.


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    #23
    Topper Harley
    Registered Users Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭Topper Harley


    kneemos wrote: »
    I'm touched.

    But no.

    Where were you touched?


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    #24
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Bus Driver at fault irrelevant what you shout.


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    #25
    Egginacup
    Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    kneemos wrote: »
    If you called out to somebody you knew and because they stopped and turned around they were hit by a bus and killed would you be responsible for their death?

    If you ordered a fucking pizza and the delivery guy came off his moped and died on the way to your gaff are you responsible for his death?

    Actually if you ordered a pizza but then a minute later you called up and cancelled and then 15 minutes later the delivery guy slipped on an olive in the pizza kitchen and went flying face first into the oven and was baked to death (which wouldn't have happened if he was merrily scootering his way to your kip with your order that you cancelled, you murderous bastard) are you responsible for his death?


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    #26
    anncoates
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,925 ✭✭✭✭anncoates


    We need to compile all of these in a separate thread and call it something like The Kneemos Dialogues.


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    #27
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Bus Driver at fault irrelevant what you shout.

    Some idiot steps out in front of him and stops, how is that his fault (assuming that he hadn't just driven through a red light).


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    #28
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    ballsymchugh wrote: »
    why would a fully functioning person stop in the middle of the road in front of a bus for whatever reason? why does there have to be someone else to blame for someone's idiocy?

    so no!

    Reflex can be a dangerous thing. And there is a legal debate to be had over whether you can be held accountable over other peoples reactions to your actions. The prime example being if you shout fire in a crowded cinema can you be held responsible if someone gets trampled to death in the evacuation.


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    #29
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    wretcheddomain wrote: »
    It's a question of intention - did the individual intend to disrupt the movement of another person such that imminent death would result?
    No, manslaughter does not require intent. It can also be involuntary.
    Candie wrote: »
    The caller bears no responsibility, either morally or legally. There's a reason why we have a word for these things: accident. Sometimes it's just a case of wrong place and wrong time.
    No, the caller could be deemed to have acted in a reckless manner, even if there was no intent to harm. Consider the same caller, but instead of crossing a street, the victim is on a tightrope with a deadly drop beneath him.

    In this case the act of calling, which has a good chance of distracting the victim to the point they lose their balance, could be seen as reckless and the caller would be at least partially culpable for the results.
    Jawgap wrote: »
    There's no negligent act (the minimum required for manslaughter)
    Depends on the jurisdiction.
    Egginacup wrote: »
    If you ordered a fucking pizza and the delivery guy came off his moped and died on the way to your gaff are you responsible for his death?
    No, but ordering a pizza is not a reckless action (for the pizza guy). Calling out to someone where they could come to harm and when they need to concentrate on what they're doing, could well be seen as such. Different scenarios entirely.


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    #30
    Topper Harley
    Registered Users Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭Topper Harley


    kylith wrote: »
    Some idiot steps out in front of him and stops, how is that his fault (assuming that he hadn't just driven through a red light).

    Of course it's the drivers fault, as well as the guy who stopped in the middle of the road.

    If the driver sees someone crossing the road they have to be prepared for any eventuality, including someone stopping, stumbling or falling over right in front of them. If the driver couldn't stop in time he was going too fast and/or not paying enough attention.


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    #31
    Topper Harley
    Registered Users Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭Topper Harley


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    No, the caller could be deemed to have acted in a reckless manner, even if there was no intent to harm. Consider the same caller, but instead of crossing a street, the victim is on a tightrope with a deadly drop beneath him.

    In this case the act of calling, which has a good chance of distracting the victim to the point they lose their balance, could be seen as reckless and the caller would be at least partially culpable for the results.

    Another similar(ish) example would be the guy who committed suicide in Telford a couple of weeks ago.

    Police are trying to identify the scumbags who goaded him to jump and are trying to come up with a charge to prosecute them under although I think that they will more likely be charged with being huge @ssholes rather than manslaughter.


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