Answer a rules question, then ask one

Fergus_Nash

Hey everyone, I've seen this in other forums and it might work here. Somebody asks a question, you answer it, then ask another. It will give people a chance to know the rules without the boredom of reading the rule book. Also, I've got a couple of questions I want to know. I'd suggest posting the rule also to avoid confusion/disagreement.

Question 1: one of my playing partners hit the ball into a bunker on Sunday, and he dug his foot into the sand about a yard from the ball to see if there was much sand in the bunker. Did he break a rule?

Question 2: the other playing partner 2 putted for a 9 on the 10th hole and was really demoralised after it. His tee shot on the 11th skied into the air and went about 100 yards. I told him as we walked not to worry about the last hole or the tee shot, just concentrate on getting the next shot in the fairway. Was I giving advice and breaking a rule?

denishurley

1. Absolutely, testing the sand, two-stroke penalty

2. I would say yes, but I would also maintain that 99% of golfers have broken this rule.

macdonagh2007

1. Actions that would constitute testing the condition of a hazard (Bunker) is in breach of Rule 13-4a -Digging in with the feet in excess of what would be done for a stance for a stroke or a practice swing.

2.During a stipulated round a player must not give advice to anyone in the competition playing the course other than his partner.

chris445

Personally I wouldn't consider the second as giving advice. Saying hit the fairway is kind of like saying hit the ball in the hole. It's what we are all trying to do anyway. It's not like you are telling him what club to use or what line to take. It's more like a morale boost than giving advice. I have to say it is something I would do a lot when playing with beginners who lose concentration after a couple of bad shots.

slave1

macdonagh2007 wrote: »

...
2.During a stipulated round a player must not give advice to anyone in the competition playing the course other than his partner...

I'd be careful to remember that your partner is in the sense of say better ball partner, not the person you happen to be out playing with, in the latter example they should consider them as competitor and not your 'partner' - from a rules perspective...

slave1

I'd consider 2 as advice, with some hole layouts short off the tee could be considered a better play, or right into light rough opening up a better approach to the green and flag, therefore "concentrate on getting the next shot in the fairway" would be considered playing advice IMHO.

Well OP?

Russman

No. 2 is a bit of a grey one alright. Telling someone to concentrate - is that advice ? Hmmm, maybe, maybe not. Depends on the context I'd say. Where do you draw the line with someone's mental state ? I'd say there's a big difference between telling someone to concentrate and telling them to watch their alignment.

Its something we should all be aware of though and its just as easy to phrase words of encouragement in such a way as to remove any doubt. Like the classic "take your time" when someone is about to tap in, IMO nobody actually means it as advice, its just something some people say because they feel they have to say something. Just as easy to say nothing or say something like "don't worry about my line you're ok there" if you feel the need to speak !

To take it to an absurd extreme, is telling someone to tighten their laces so they don't slip, advice ?

As an aside, who actually deems something to be "advice" ? The player saying it, the player he's saying it to, or anyone else ?

Fergus_Nash

slave1 wrote: »

I'd consider 2 as advice, with some hole layouts short off the tee could be considered a better play, or right into light rough opening up a better approach to the green and flag, therefore "concentrate on getting the next shot in the fairway" would be considered playing advice IMHO.

Well OP?

Yep, it was definitely advice. The previous hole was ~500 yard par five that he was just a slog for him. This was another par 5, but short, straight and downhill. He skied his drive.

As someone else said, I tried to boost his morale before he got so sick of it and walked in. I'll be more mindful of it in the future.

slave1

Simple one to move things along, my ball is in the bunker greenside, I'm not away and seeing as it's in bad nick I start raking well away from my ball to tidy it up, am I breaking the rules...

fearruanua

slave1 wrote: »

Simple one to move things along, my ball is in the bunker greenside, I'm not away and seeing as it's in bad nick I start raking well away from my ball to tidy it up, am I breaking the rules...

Yes, testing the sand.

I think : )

slave1

fearruanua wrote: »

Yes, testing the sand.

I think : )

I think not!

Seve OB

slave1 wrote: »

Simple one to move things along, my ball is in the bunker greenside, I'm not away and seeing as it's in bad nick I start raking well away from my ball to tidy it up, am I breaking the rules...

nope, not at all... years ago you would have been.


My Question... came up in our group on Saturday.

can I repair a pitch mark that is not on the green, if
it is my line,
or
it's not in my line

slave1

I think I saw or read something about someone on the PGA tour that fixed their plug mark on the fairway BEFORE taking their stroke and were penalised, could be wrong on that though...

I'll go a no in either case but perhaps it needs expanding WRT distance from the green

paulos53

Seve OB wrote: »

nope, not at all... years ago you would have been.


My Question... came up in our group on Saturday.

can I repair a pitch mark that is not on the green, if
it is my line,
or
it's not in my line

I looked up the ruling after our game on Saturday

You can repair it if it is not on your line and not in the area of your intended stance or swing.

A pitch mark on the green can always be repaired.

Johnny_Fontane

slave1 wrote: »

Simple one to move things along, my ball is in the bunker greenside, I'm not away and seeing as it's in bad nick I start raking well away from my ball to tidy it up, am I breaking the rules...

No. They changed the rule a couple of years ago. Had a barney in a matchplay with a pillock last year when my partner raked his footsteps (walking from the other side of the bunker) before playing his shot. Should have looked up the rules at the time, but didnt.

The new rules code, which took effect from January 1, 2012 and will remain in force for four years, amended Exception Two to permit a player to smooth sand or soil in a hazard at any time, including before playing from that hazard, provided (1) it is for the sole purpose of caring for the course and (2) Rule 13-2 is not breached.

titlebearer

Barry Rhodes has a good website about the rules of golf. One article..

Under the Rules of Golf you may…;
Rake irregularities in a bunker before you play your ball out of that bunker, provided this is for the sole purpose of caring for the course and nothing is done to breach Rule 13-2 with respect to your next stroke. Exception 2 to Rule 13-4.

Carry a left-handed club, even if you usually play right-handed. Nothing in the Rules disallows this.

Borrow balls, tees, gloves, towels etc. from another player during a round (in fact, you may borrow any equipment except a club). Decision 5-1/5.

Have more than one caddie during a round, provided that you only have one caddie at any time. Decision 6-4/7.

Enter the clubhouse, car park or pro shop during a round without penalty, providing you do not unduly delay play. Decision 6-8a/2.7.

Knock down tree leaves with a practice swing, providing you do not actually improve the area of your intended swing. Decision 13-2/0.5.

Test the condition of a bunker, providing your ball does not lie in or touch that bunker, or a similar bunker. Rule 13-4.

Roll a ball over the putting green to a fellow competitor or opponent, providing you are not doing so to test the surface. Decision 16-1d/1.

Remove a flagstick, or the equipment of any player, that has been left lying near to the hole if you think that any ball in motion might hit it. Rule 24-1.

Johnny_Fontane

So, Par 3 16th at Knightsbrook. Anything 10 yards short and right will hit an incline and roll back in the water. Red stakes.

So what are my options?

most people just walk up to the hazard and drop a ball (nearer the hole!) and play from there. The explanation given is that the ball crossed the hazard and rolled back in.

But how do you place your ball (no nearer the hole) on the other side of the hazard?

Is the only option to rehit the shot?

titlebearer

Seve OB wrote: »

nope, not at all... years ago you would have been.


My Question... came up in our group on Saturday.

can I repair a pitch mark that is not on the green, if
it is my line,
or
it's not in my line

The determination as to whether a player has gained a potential advantage from his actions is made by reference to the situation immediately prior to his stroke. If there is a reasonable possibility that the player's action has created a potential advantage, the player is in breach of Rule 13-2.

The Decision lists three useful examples that are unlikely to create such a potential advantage.

If a player repairs a small pitch-mark on his line of play five yards in front of his ball prior to making a 150-yard approach shot from through the green;

If a player accidentally knocks down several leaves from a tree in his area of intended swing with a practice swing, but there are still so many leaves or branches remaining that the area of intended swing has not been materially affected; or

If a player whose ball lies in thick rough 180 yards from the green, walks forward and pulls strands of grass on his line of play and tosses them in the air to determine the direction of the wind.

Conversely, examples of changes that are likely to create such a potential advantage and therefore incur the general penalty are:

If a player repairs a pitch-mark through the green five yards in front of his ball and on his line of play prior to making a stroke from off the putting green that might be affected by the pitch-mark (e.g., a putt or a low-running shot);

If a player accidentally knocks down a single leaf from a tree in his area of intended swing with a practice swing, but, as this was one of very few leaves that might either interfere with his swing or fall and thereby distract him, the area of intended swing has been materially affected; or

If a player pulls strands of grass from rough a few inches behind his ball to test the wind, but thereby reduces a potential distraction for the player, or resistance to his club, in the area of his intended swing.

I hope that clears that up!

agusta

Fergus_Nash wrote: »

Hey everyone, I've seen this in other forums and it might work here. Somebody asks a question, you answer it, then ask another. It will give people a chance to know the rules without the boredom of reading the rule book. Also, I've got a couple of questions I want to know. I'd suggest posting the rule also to avoid confusion/disagreement.

Question 1: one of my playing partners hit the ball into a bunker on Sunday, and he dug his foot into the sand about a yard from the ball to see if there was much sand in the bunker. Did he break a rule?

Question 2: the other playing partner 2 putted for a 9 on the 10th hole and was really demoralised after it. His tee shot on the 11th skied into the air and went about 100 yards. I told him as we walked not to worry about the last hole or the tee shot, just concentrate on getting the next shot in the fairway. Was I giving advice and breaking a rule?

Question 2,
absolutely no rules broken!
A couple of examples
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/golf/11149363/Rory-McIlroy-right-to-acknowledge-Oliver-Wilsons-ultimate-recovery-shot.html

Also a few years back padraig harrington gave angel cabrera advise on the putting green in the pga grand slam of golf tournament.angel carbera was tapping in a one foot putting standing directly behind his ball.[he didnt want to walk on the other players line]padraig harrington interupted him and said to putt from the side of his ball or he would be liable to a penalty.no rules were broken

whizbang

So, Par 3 16th at Knightsbrook.

Red Stakes = Lateral Water Hazard.

So the standard 3 options for water hazard are available, plus additional 2 options, which don't really apply here, because you can't drop within 2 club lengths without being nearer the hole.

Its become a bit of a cop out; because they cleared the water, and the ball then travelled backwards, away from the hole, often guys assume this means they can drop back from the direction the ball traveled into the water.
According to Rhodes: The direction the ball was travelling has no bearing on the rule where the ball last crossed the hazard

aarymark

ive never played the hole but id imagine its possible to go 2 club lengths left or right from the point of entry and be no nearer the holehttp://knightsbrookgolfclub.ie/course-plan/with that pin 2 left shoud be ok

slave1

agusta wrote: »

Also a few years back padraig harrington gave angel cabrera advise on the putting green in the pga grand slam of golf tournament.angel carbera was tapping in a one foot putting standing directly behind his ball.[he didnt want to walk on the other players line]padraig harrington interupted him and said to putt from the side of his ball or he would be liable to a penalty.no rules were broken

Information on the rules of golf is public knowledge so not considered advice...

HighLine

whizbang wrote: »

Red Stakes = Lateral Water Hazard.

So the standard 3 options for water hazard are available, plus additional 2 options, which don't really apply here, because you can't drop within 2 club lengths without being nearer the hole.

Its become a bit of a cop out; because they cleared the water, and the ball then travelled backwards, away from the hole, often guys assume this means they can drop back from the direction the ball traveled into the water.
According to Rhodes: The direction the ball was travelling has no bearing on the rule where the ball last crossed the hazard

First thing.. when taking relief under rule 26, the determining point is always the point at which the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard.

With that in mind... if your ball travels over the hazard and lands greenside but then it trickles back into the hazard you can always avail of the option of dropping within 2 club lengths of the greenside margin of the hazard.

whizbang

dropping within 2 club lengths of the greenside margin of the hazard.

So you need to accurately determine the margin of the hazard - Its the line of stakes, not the water line. Not easy, when there's only 1 stake lying on the ground, 30 yards away...

Then You need to know all the options for dropping. If it rolls back into the water:
- How many times can you drop ?
- When do you get to place ?

HighLine

whizbang wrote: »

So you need to accurately determine the margin of the hazard - Its the line of stakes, not the water line. Not easy, when there's only 1 stake lying on the ground, 30 yards away...

Then You need to know all the options for dropping. If it rolls back into the water:
- How many times can you drop ?
- When do you get to place ?

The marking of the hazard being not up to scratch is the fault of the golf course...

As per usual, you drop twice and if, after both drops, the ball rolls back into the hazard, you place the ball at the approximate spot where, after the 2nd drop, the ball first hit the ground.

Also, with regards to dropping, it is fine to stop the ball immediately after it rolls back and enters into the hazard so if you have time to prevent the ball rolling back into the drink

Johnny_Fontane

HighLine wrote: »

The marking of the hazard being not up to scratch is the fault of the golf course...

but going two clubs to the right or left may be closer to the hole, this is my point. If the point of entry is on the line of the hazard, anything right or left of that could in essence be closer to the hole.....

HighLine

Johnny_Fontane wrote: »

but going two clubs to the right or left may be closer to the hole, this is my point. If the point of entry is on the line of the hazard, anything right or left of that could in essence be closer to the hole.....

I have never seen that happen playing or at any time on both PGA and Euro Tours. It is usually always possible to drop not closer to the hole. The marking of the hazard as "lateral" by it's very definition usually means that the hazard is to the side of a green (there are obviously exceptions) which further assists in making sure your 2 club length drop will not be closer to the hole.

What usually happens is that you measure out the 2 club lengths almost along the line of the hazard and mark the point a mere few inches to the greenside of the hazard.

PARlance

Just had a look at an overhead image of the 16th at Knightsbrook. Can't see any area where there would be any hassle getting further from the hole on the greenside.

You would need the dry land to almost be a V shape for that issue to arise

agusta

slave1 wrote: »

Information on the rules of golf is public knowledge so not considered advice...

Yes,i know this but from previous post some people do not

agusta

slave1 wrote: »

I'd consider 2 as advice, with some hole layouts short off the tee could be considered a better play, or right into light rough opening up a better approach to the green and flag, therefore "concentrate on getting the next shot in the fairway" would be considered playing advice IMHO.

Well OP?

What rule would this come under?,this is not a rules infringement,its not a matter of opinion im afraid...

slave1

agusta wrote: »

What rule would this come under?,this is not a rules infringement,its not a matter of opinion im afraid...

I don't think so...

Rule 8.1 states "Advice is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of club or the method of making a stroke"

"Concentrate on getting the next shot on the fairway" COULD influence a player in determining his play or indeed choice of club e.g. use a hybrid or goto club for greater accuracy versus potentially wayward driver, and therefore is advice IMHO

HarshOstrich

If my ball is directly behind a sprinkler on the fringe of the green and the best shot is clearly a putt am I entitled to a free drop no closer to the hole.
Another thing that's not a question but a way in which I think golf needs to change it's rules, too much on a golf course is put down to your luck on a given day such as a bounce left or right or whether you roll into a divot on a fairway.
I think with divots in the fairway you should be able to place directly behind the divot as it's extremely unfortunate to hit a straight shot and end up in a divot, and with my above question I think you should be allowed to move ball so that you can play the shot you want to play as a sprinkler head should not alter your shot.
Luck should only come into play for a bounce you take or if you roll into bunkers and hazards.

agusta

slave1 wrote: »

I don't think so...

Rule 8.1 states "Advice is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of club or the method of making a stroke"

"Concentrate on getting the next shot on the fairway" COULD influence a player in determining his play or indeed choice of club e.g. use a hybrid or goto club for greater accuracy versus potentially wayward driver, and therefore is advice IMHO

" Concentrate on getting the next shot on the fairway" is the same as when a player missed a 5 foot putt and leaves himself 2 feet and rushes to tap it in,Then another player says " take your time".both cases there is no penalty.But as you are saying quite rightly if you are going by the letter of the law you can make a case to say a rule was broken.However if a golfer pulls aside his playing partners for this and bring it to the attention to the commitee and the gui,it wont be long before he finds himself playing on his own.

I spoke to the gui council a few years back about a ruling.the advise i was given was that some people literally take some rules to far [which can be done}.The rules are there to be enjoyed by everyone,common sense should be used and the rules were never designed to be used as a tool to pull up a fellow golfer at every opportunity

ShivasIrons

HarshOstrich wrote: »

If my ball is directly behind a sprinkler on the fringe of the green and the best shot is clearly a putt am I entitled to a free drop no closer to the hole.
Another thing that's not a question but a way in which I think golf needs to change it's rules, too much on a golf course is put down to your luck on a given day such as a bounce left or right or whether you roll into a divot on a fairway.
I think with divots in the fairway you should be able to place directly behind the divot as it's extremely unfortunate to hit a straight shot and end up in a divot, and with my above question I think you should be allowed to move ball so that you can play the shot you want to play as a sprinkler head should not alter your shot.
Luck should only come into play for a bounce you take or if you roll into bunkers and hazards.

So do you think you shouldn't have to deal with any bad breaks on a golf course?

Dealing with bad breaks is part of golf and this includes having to play out of divots. Why not practice playing shots out of divots?

Montgolfier

ShivasIrons wrote: »

So do you think you shouldn't have to deal with any bad breaks on a golf course?

Dealing with bad breaks is part of golf and this includes having to play out of divots. Why not practice playing shots out of divots?

It also encourages people to fix their divots and improve the condition of the course.

HarshOstrich

ShivasIrons wrote: »

So do you think you shouldn't have to deal with any bad breaks on a golf course?

Dealing with bad breaks is part of golf and this includes having to play out of divots. Why not practice playing shots out of divots?

I do think bad breaks is part of golf but it shouldn't be dumb luck if you hit a shot down the middle of the fairway and you end up in a divot, I accept if you hit it in rough it's your own fault where it ends up or if you hit it into a bunker and it plugs on the face.i just think you should able to hit out of divots as you are being penalised for a good shot.
I think I read in earlier posts that you can't repair a pitch mark on your putting line, again this is ridiculous as it's down to dumb luck.
I just want the luck of the draw taking out of the game for straight shots and leave the luck to the bounces your ball takes and to the lie you end up with in the rough, we need to stop penalising straight shots

ShivasIrons

HarshOstrich wrote: »

I do think bad breaks is part of golf but it shouldn't be dumb luck if you hit a shot down the middle of the fairway and you end up in a divot, I accept if you hit it in rough it's your own fault where it ends up or if you hit it into a bunker and it plugs on the face.i just think you should able to hit out of divots as you are being penalised for a good shot.
I think I read in earlier posts that you can't repair a pitch mark on your putting line, again this is ridiculous as it's down to dumb luck.
I just want the luck of the draw taking out of the game for straight shots and leave the luck to the bounces your ball takes and to the lie you end up with in the rough, we need to stop penalising straight shots

Pitchmarks can always be repaired on the green.

Are you saying if you hit a 'good shot' you shouldn't get a bad break? How about getting a good break if you hit a 'bad shot', what should happen then?

HarshOstrich

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Pitchmarks can always be repaired on the green.

Are you saying if you hit a 'good shot' you shouldn't get a bad break? How about getting a good break if you hit a 'bad shot', what should happen then?

No I'm saying if your on the fairway you should not have to hit out of a divot as it is where you are suppose to be.
We all know good shots can end up in rough and bad shots can end up in fairway but if it's on the short stuff I think you should be able to roll it back out of a divot.
I do hit out of divots when I am in them but I don't agree with the rule.
I also don't agree if your hitting a shot and your club tips off ball and moves a little should you be penalised.

Question now , if I'm in bunker and playing the shot and in the backswing I scrape a bit of sand is this a penalty.

ShivasIrons

HarshOstrich wrote: »

No I'm saying if your on the fairway you should not have to hit out of a divot as it is where you are suppose to be.
We all know good shots can end up in rough and bad shots can end up in fairway but if it's on the short stuff I think you should be able to roll it back out of a divot.
I do hit out of divots when I am in them but I don't agree with the rule.
I also don't agree if your hitting a shot and your club tips off ball and moves a little should you be penalised.

Question now , if I'm in bunker and playing the shot and in the backswing I scrape a bit of sand is this a penalty.

What about the scenario where the fairways are patchy? If a 'good shot' ends up in a small patchy area do you also get a free drop there?

So if you're about to hit a putt and you accidently hit the ball and it moves a minute amount, you're saying there should be no penalty? Imagine if the ball was on the edge of the hole in this scenario, then what you're saying means you could hole out without the shot counting.

Hitting the sand in your backswing in the bunker is testing the hazard and that's a penalty.

HarshOstrich

ShivasIrons wrote: »

What about the scenario where the fairways are patchy? If a 'good shot' ends up in a small patchy area do you also get a free drop there?

So if you're about to hit a putt and you accidently hit the ball and it moves a minute amount, you're saying there should be no penalty? Imagine if the ball was on the edge of the hole in this scenario, then what you're saying means you could hole out without the shot counting.

Hitting the sand in your backswing in the bunker is testing the hazard and that's a penalty.

I don't mean putting as you have already pointed out that could be taking advantage of but I'm talking about irons and wedges.

If an area of fairway is patchy it should be gur IMO.

Golfgraffix

HarshOstrich wrote: »

No I'm saying if your on the fairway you should not have to hit out of a divot as it is where you are suppose to be.
We all know good shots can end up in rough and bad shots can end up in fairway but if it's on the short stuff I think you should be able to roll it back out of a divot..

I think on most courses you would run out of usable fairway in the landing areas, essentially you are doubling the amount of divots in every round.

J

charlieIRL

Can i make one suggestion here, if you are replying to a rule query can you please quote the relevant rule. We want to be giving honest yet factual answers to every query.

cjfitz

A player is about to putt on the green, has addressed the ball, a gust of wind blows the ball, the player putts from the new resting position of the ball. Has a rule been breached?

agusta

cjfitz wrote: »

A player is about to putt on the green, has addressed the ball, a gust of wind blows the ball, the player putts from the new resting position of the ball. Has a rule been breached?

no penalty

whizbang

I also don't agree if your hitting a shot and your club tips off ball and moves a little should you be penalised.

Isn't this covered by a recent amendment to the rules?. If you hadn't intended to hit the ball, it doesn't count, - but Only if your ball is not yet in play. i.e. you are on the tee box.

cjfitz

agusta wrote: »

no penalty

This happened me today. I (foolishly) wasn't sure of the rule until I came home and checked. One of the players in my group pulled me on it and said it was a one shot penalty. It made no difference in the end and at least that is a rule I will never forget.

zizou_

Question: Is it against the rules to clean your ball by rubbing on the green? Is this considered to be testing the green?

paulos53

zizou_ wrote: »

Question: Is it against the rules to clean your ball by rubbing on the green? Is this considered to be testing the green?

From the decisions on the rules:

16-1d/5 Rubbing Ball on Putting Green for Cleaning Purposes

Q. May a player clean his ball by rubbing it on the putting green?

A. Yes, provided the act is not for the purpose of testing the surface of the putting green. It is recommended that a ball be cleaned in other ways to eliminate any question as to the player's intentions.

HarshOstrich

cjfitz wrote: »

A player is about to putt on the green, has addressed the ball, a gust of wind blows the ball, the player putts from the new resting position of the ball. Has a rule been breached?

A guy I played with yesterday was about to tap in his ball when a gust of wind blew it in the hole, what should happen in this situation, it was like 8 inches from the hole

HighLine

HarshOstrich wrote: »

A guy I played with yesterday was about to tap in his ball when a gust of wind blew it in the hole, what should happen in this situation, it was like 8 inches from the hole

He should buy a lotto ticket It counts as being holed after his previous stroke.