Immigration

onlythedon

I'm currently pregnant and my partner is a non eu. I have just moved home from his country as I only barely earned enough money to survive myself.

My partner has a good job there but unfortunately his qualification is not recognized here.

As he will be the father of a child that is an Irish citizen I know he can apply for a visa here for long stay but my understanding is this can take two to three years to be processed. Does he have to keep applying for short stay visas while this is being processed? He can't get any money from the state (I don't have a problem with this) but he cannot work either in the mean time?

If we get married which we would probably prefer to do after we get used to a new addition, but did this sooner, how long does the process take and will he be able to work immediately?

We have little savings which I can now build up while I'm at home. How much do we need to have saved?

Our biggest priority is to be with our child, however financially it would be more difficult in his country. I could support him for a while but it would be a huge financial undertaking to be unemployed with no income for two/three years and my partner would of course prefer to work.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Dandelion6

Totally depends on what country he's from first of all, the process is different for visa-required nationals and non visa-required nationals.

Pro Hoc Vice

onlythedon wrote: »

I'm currently pregnant and my partner is a non eu. I have just moved home from his country as I only barely earned enough money to survive myself.

My partner has a good job there but unfortunately his qualification is not recognized here.

As he will be the father of a child that is an Irish citizen I know he can apply for a visa here for long stay but my understanding is this can take two to three years to be processed. Does he have to keep applying for short stay visas while this is being processed? He can't get any money from the state (I don't have a problem with this) but he cannot work either in the mean time?

If we get married which we would probably prefer to do after we get used to a new addition, but did this sooner, how long does the process take and will he be able to work immediately?

We have little savings which I can now build up while I'm at home. How much do we need to have saved?

Our biggest priority is to be with our child, however financially it would be more difficult in his country. I could support him for a while but it would be a huge financial undertaking to be unemployed with no income for two/three years and my partner would of course prefer to work.

Any advice would be appreciated.

You need to look up "Zambrano" and make an application under that.

onlythedon

Dandelion6 wrote: »

Totally depends on what country he's from first of all, the process is different for visa-required nationals and non visa-required nationals.

He is visa required and from Laos.

onlythedon

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

You need to look up "Zambrano" and make an application under that.

Thank you. From what I understand this can take two to three years. Do you know if this process would be faster if we were married? The whole idea of being without a work visa with a baby to support is not ideal.

sparkling sea

onlythedon wrote: »

Thank you. From what I understand this can take two to three years. Do you know if this process would be faster if we were married? The whole idea of being without a work visa with a baby to support is not ideal.

You could ring the Immigrant Council of Ireland, they are ver helpful and can give all the help you need for free.

Here's a link to their site

http://www.immigrantcouncil.ie/index.php/services/overview

If you ring them, you can ask them to ring you back, they are more than happy to do this as it can cost alot if you are on the phone awhile.

You could also go to your local CIC and they will contact the ICI for you, you can speak to them on the phone yourself or an Information Provider from CIC will do it for you.

Here's a link to the INIS site, it will give you any info you need on visa requirements, but if I was you, I'd also contact ICI

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Irish%20Visa%20Information

Dandelion6

A long stay visa application will usually take six months or so. It isn't a Zambrano application per se unless the result of him being denied a visa is that the child would have to leave the EU, but the general INIS policy is to grant residency to parents as long as they are genuinely involved in the child's life and don't have criminal convictions. You might have a problem if your income doesn't meet the requirements of the Family Reunification Guidelines (€40,000 cumulatively over the past three years) though if it is refused on that basis I would talk to a solicitor about bringing judicial review proceedings - especially if you are married when you bring the application.

Pro Hoc Vice

onlythedon wrote: »

Thank you. From what I understand this can take two to three years. Do you know if this process would be faster if we were married? The whole idea of being without a work visa with a baby to support is not ideal.

Applications are not currently taking that long. Most applications are 6 plus months.

Lt J.R. Bell

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

You need to look up "Zambrano" and make an application under that.

That application WILL NOT apply if one of the parents is Irish Themselves. See the Drecei case which confirms this

But, if that's not the case, that's the application to make. Won't take long to process either.

Lt J.R. Bell

onlythedon wrote: »

Thank you. From what I understand this can take two to three years. Do you know if this process would be faster if we were married? The whole idea of being without a work visa with a baby to support is not ideal.

A Zambrano application does not take that long at all. Marriage is utterly irrelevan, even if the parents no longer are with each other, provided that the parent plays a genuine role in the childs life

In other cases, involving relationships
Marriage is not essential if you can show that you cohabited for at least two years, in what ever country ye were previously. That applies with EU applications or even under Irish immigration

Pro Hoc Vice

Lt J.R. Bell wrote: »

That application WILL NOT apply if one of the parents is Irish Themselves. See the Drecei case which confirms this

But, if that's not the case, that's the application to make. Won't take long to process either.

The department are applying Zambrano even if one parent is an Irish Citizen. They are all so applying it where one parent has a right. In any event the OP would be best advised to take advice from a qualified solicitor.

Lt J.R. Bell

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

The department are applying Zambrano even if one parent is an Irish Citizen. They are all so applying it where one parent has a right. In any event the OP would be best advised to take advice from a qualified solicitor.

Since when?

Zambrano explicity does not apply where the parent is a citizen of the country where the child is born /a citizen of. EU law does not apply in that situation. Drecei, confirmed Zambrano's limitations. The Irish Courts have already permitted the Department to reject applications on that basis

That is not saying Irish immigration law (as oppose to Zambrano /EU law) won't or don't grant residency on the basis of the Childs Irish citizenship, irrespective of the parents origin

The point of Zambrano is that there is a risk that the child would have to leave Europe. That risk is irrelevant where one of the parents is a citizen of a country of the Childs birth/citizenship

They may get status, but it ain't under Zambrano, either way, they get status

"... Where one parent has a right" What? That makes no sense. Of course the parent has a "right" (right to residency?) sure, if the parent wasn't Irish, how else could the child be Irish other than Section 6 of the citizenship Act (as amended) in the first place

Bet a tenner that a qualified immigration lawyer will confirm this!

Dandelion6

Lt J.R. Bell wrote: »

Bet a tenner that a qualified immigration lawyer will confirm this!

I'm a qualified lawyer, working mainly in immigration law, and I'd call it a draw. Dereci does say that Zambrano applies only where the child would have to leave Europe, but it doesn't say that it can't ever apply where one of the parents is an EU citizen. Hypothetically, if there was a case where for some reason the EU national child would have to follow the non-EU spouse, Zambrano would probably apply.

Also it's not true that marriage is totally irrelevant. Under the Gorry decision a married couple where one spouse is Irish have a prima facie constitutional right to live together in Ireland. Not the case for unmarried couples.

Pro Hoc Vice

Lt J.R. Bell wrote: »

Since when?

Zambrano explicity does not apply where the parent is a citizen of the country where the child is born /a citizen of. EU law does not apply in that situation. Drecei, confirmed Zambrano's limitations. The Irish Courts have already permitted the Department to reject applications on that basis

That is not saying Irish immigration law (as oppose to Zambrano /EU law) won't or don't grant residency on the basis of the Childs Irish citizenship, irrespective of the parents origin

The point of Zambrano is that there is a risk that the child would have to leave Europe. That risk is irrelevant where one of the parents is a citizen of a country of the Childs birth/citizenship

They may get status, but it ain't under Zambrano, either way, they get status

"... Where one parent has a right" What? That makes no sense. Of course the parent has a "right" (right to residency?) sure, if the parent wasn't Irish, how else could the child be Irish other than Section 6 of the citizenship Act (as amended) in the first place

Bet a tenner that a qualified immigration lawyer will confirm this!

There is noting legally incorrect in what you say but the department are granting Zambrano applications where they may not fully comply.

I was also referencing where a non Irish citizen parent may have a right to reside, and the citizen child gaining citizenship through that person.

It's is clear that the department is treating any citizen child application as Zambrano and am personally aware of recent cases where the department gave a permission after application under Zambrano.

Lt J.R. Bell

Dandelion6 wrote: »

I'm a qualified lawyer, working mainly in immigration law, and I'd call it a draw. Dereci does say that Zambrano applies only where the child would have to leave Europe, but it doesn't say that it can't ever apply where one of the parents is an EU citizen. Hypothetically, if there was a case where for some reason the EU national child would have to follow the non-EU spouse, Zambrano would probably apply.

Also it's not true that marriage is totally irrelevant. Under the Gorry decision a married couple where one spouse is Irish have a prima facie constitutional right to live together in Ireland. Not the case for unmarried couples.

Drecei cites Mccarthy in its reasoning. EU LAW does not apply in these situations. High Court have confirmed this! Scully v Minister Justice 2013.

I never said that Zambrano does not apply if it concerns other EU nationals. It won't apply if parent and child is Irish and in Ireland, nor apply if parent and child is British and in Britian. EU law doesn't apply, it's an internal matter outside the competence of EU LAW (Well there is always ECHR)

Zambrano only really gives advantage to the non Eu parent,(of course the child too) so what you said at the end of the first paragraph is utter nonsense. If the other parent ,assuming that they are alive and playing a role in the childs life, is also a citizen of the country of the child, the case does not apply. Of course, different story if the parent abandons the child

One has to reply upon Irish immigration law In this situation

I said marriage was irrelevant solely on the basis that both EU LAW and Irish immigration law recognise DE FACTO RELATIONSHIPS. Marriage is the job if you can't prove De facto of course

One does not need to marry if they so wish. I am convinced you don't know what you are talking about.in the context of Zambrano, it's of no rerelevacy either

Gorry should be considered on its facts. Nothing in Gorry is new, just a confirmation of the law as it already stands. No Irish Citizen has a guaranteed right to their non Eu family here in Ireland on the basis of marriage or do facto relationship. Of course, facts of the case may make it difficult for the Minister to say NO. On the other hand, A German who exercises his treaty rights here in Ireland has better protected rights to family reunification. For a start it is in writing



Anyway, Irish immigration law may sort the family out either way

Pro Hoc Vice

Lt J.R. Bell wrote: »

Drecei cites Mccarthy in its reasoning. EU LAW does not apply in these situations. High Court have confirmed this! Scully v Minister Justice 2013.

I never said that Zambrano does not apply if it concerns other EU nationals. It won't apply if parent and child is Irish and in Ireland, nor apply if parent and child is British and in Britian. EU law doesn't apply, it's an internal matter outside the competence of EU LAW (Well there is always ECHR)

Zambrano only really gives advantage to the non Eu parent,(of course the child too) so what you said at the end of the first paragraph is utter nonsense. If the other parent ,assuming that they are alive and playing a role in the childs life, is also a citizen of the country of the child, the case does not apply. Of course, different story if the parent abandons the child

One has to reply upon Irish immigration law In this situation

I said marriage was irrelevant solely on the basis that both EU LAW and Irish immigration law recognise DE FACTO RELATIONSHIPS. Marriage is the job if you can't prove De facto of course

One does not need to marry if they so wish. I am convinced you don't know what you are talking about.in the context of Zambrano, it's of no rerelevacy either

Gorry should be considered on its facts. Nothing in Gorry is new, just a confirmation of the law as it already stands. No Irish Citizen has a guaranteed right to their non Eu family here in Ireland on the basis of marriage or do facto relationship. Of course, facts of the case may make it difficult for the Minister to say NO. On the other hand, A German who exercises his treaty rights here in Ireland has better protected rights to family reunification. For a start it is in writing



Anyway, Irish immigration law may sort the family out either way

I am personally aware in my immigration practice where a Zambrano decision was granted to a non EEA citizen of a Irish citizen child to reside where the other parent was an Irish citizen. I have confirmed with my instructing solicitor that the Department has adopted a policy in such cases and are in many cases giving rights greater than that contained in the judgements. It is of course always open to a member state to give rights greater than EU law.

Jacovs

In 2012 my irish gf gave birth to our son in Ireland, so im not sure if the same applies now nearly 3 years later. Im a south african citizen (dont need visa to come to ireland on holiday but do need it to stay/work here). I was living and working in SA and came over for a month for his birth. During that time (a week or 2 after he was born) I went to gnib and asked what I should do in order to come and live in Ireland. They advised me to apply referencing the Zambrano case, when I come back to Ireland again.

I then went back to SA to finish my work contract, and 2 months later came to Ireland again. At the airport I was asked my reason for coming here and I told the Immigration officer im here to join my partner and son (had no visa or visa application made at this time). I got a 3 month stamp and was told to make my application within that time.

I then sent a letter to GNIB stating my intentions to apply for residency on the basis of being the parent of an EU national, referencing the Zambrano case as they told me to.

They sent me back a letter requesting proof of my role in my son's life, so I sent everything I had, nearly a whole file worth of paperwork. (Have to say it helped having my name on his birth certificate).

I arrived in Ireland on 4 August, personally dropped my final application with all paperwork in to the GNIB offices on Burgh quay on 31 August. Was granted my 3 year residency a week later on 7 September (which apparently got lost in the mail and was sent a new confirmation letter in october), and was registered in the GNIB offices on 31 october just before they increased the fee from 150 euro to 300 euro.

So all in, took me 3 months from the day I got here until I was registered. Shouldve been just over a month if the post didnt get lost.

Maybe the process have been changed now though cos in 2012 there wasnt even an application form, just a letter and supporting documents from my side.

Its worth noting that at no point did they ask me to prove de facto relationship with my gf, or even mention my gf, although it doesnt hurt. It was purely based on my role in my son's life.

Lt J.R. Bell

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

I am personally aware in my immigration practice where a Zambrano decision was granted to a non EEA citizen of a Irish citizen child to reside where the other parent was an Irish citizen. I have confirmed with my instructing solicitor that the Department has adopted a policy in such cases and are in many cases giving rights greater than that contained in the judgements. It is of course always open to a member state to give rights greater than EU law.

The grant of residency letter actually cites residency was granted as per Zambrano or was it unspecifed ground grounds eg "under exceptional circumstances "?

Again, good to see that they are taking a more professional active approach whether under Zambrano or Irish immigration law

Pro Hoc Vice

Lt J.R. Bell wrote: »

The grant of residency letter actually cites residency was granted as per Zambrano or was it unspecifed ground grounds eg "under exceptional circumstances "?

Again, good to see that they are taking a more professional active approach whether under Zambrano or Irish immigration law

i will check letters, I do know applications made under Zambrano. I am rarely shown letter when application granted.

Dandelion6

Lt J.R. Bell wrote: »

Drecei cites Mccarthy in its reasoning. EU LAW does not apply in these situations. High Court have confirmed this! Scully v Minister Justice 2013.

Where does Scully say that it can never apply? Both there and in Dereci, the children were not as a factual matter going to have to leave the EU. In Dereci the ruling stated that it would be a matter for the national court to determine whether the child would have to leave the EU, in other words it is to be considered on the facts of each case - not as a blanket rule that EU law could never apply in circumstances where one of the parents was a national of the same country.

I never said that Zambrano does not apply if it concerns other EU nationals. It won't apply if parent and child is Irish and in Ireland, nor apply if parent and child is British and in Britian.

Bolded part is why I said "EU nationals" rather than "Irish nationals".

Of course, different story if the parent abandons the child

Hello, that's precisely a hypothetical situation in which an EU citizen child might have to follow their non-EU parent out of the EU. You know, one of those hypothetical situations you just described as "utter nonsense" :rolleyes:

One does not need to marry if they so wish. I am convinced you don't know what you are talking about.in the context of Zambrano, it's of no rerelevacy either

LOL. You've been telling OP that it's not a Zambrano application anyway!

No Irish Citizen has a guaranteed right to their non Eu family here in Ireland on the basis of marriage or do facto relationship.

I didn't say guaranteed right. I said prima facie right, which is precisely what Gorry says. It says there is a constitutional right under Article 41 for an Irish national to have their non-Irish spouse with them in Ireland. It's not an absolute right but the Minister must show a lawful countervailing purpose and the refusal must be proportionate to that purpose. This analysis does not need to be undertaken if the couple is not married (though of course Article 8 ECHR rights would still apply). I cannot see how on earth you could conclude that marriage would be irrelevant to OP's visa application, in light of this.

Dandelion6

Incidentally I have recently briefed two different barristers with particular expertise in EU immigration law in cases involving Irish citizen children with an Irish citizen parent. In both cases the barrister considers that EU law applies.

Pro Hoc Vice

Dandelion6 wrote: »

Incidentally I have recently briefed two different barristers with particular expertise in EU immigration law in cases involving Irish citizen children with an Irish citizen parent. In both cases the barrister considers that EU law applies.

I'm upset I was not briefed, lol but I agree with the opinion.

Lt J.R. Bell

Dandelion6 wrote: »

bha, this is messy, but here it goes (on a mobile)


You said
Bolded part is why I said "EU nationals" rather than "Irish nationals".

Ya, I know, I was just pointing out that it is relevant to other member states too. Irrelevant here though.

You said

Hello, that's precisely a hypothetical situation in which an EU citizen child might have to follow their non-EU parent out of the EU. You know, one of those hypothetical situations you just described as "utter nonsense" :rolleyes:

Nope, I said with the exception that I made,which you highlighted, what you said was nonsense. Stick to the facts of the op and not wonder off on a hypothetical and irrelevant scenario (hence the nonsense) I say this respectfully

You said
LOL. You've been telling OP that it's not a Zambrano application anyway!

Seriously are you for real? You realise how stupid you sound?

Family reunification can be made on a number of grounds. Birth of child or relationship with spouse/partner/definition facto relationship. Marriage is no longer relalevant for family reunification applications (it helps but not essential) the op asked if marriage would quicken up an application based on the child and /or based on the relationship with the op. The answer is, no, not necessarily. (for reasons already explained by others)

It's one thing not to know this area, fair enough, it's another to make suggestions as to what another is saying. Jeez.. Roll eyes indeed


You said
I didn't say guaranteed right.

I know I was pointing out, as you would agree, one seems to be in a better position under EU law than our own discretionary "laws". Anyway its irrelevant to the issues actually discussed

You said

I said prima facie right, which is precisely what Gorry says. It says there is a constitutional right under Article 41 for an Irish national to have their non-Irish spouse with them in Ireland. It's not an absolute right but the Minister must show a lawful countervailing purpose and the refusal must be proportionate to that purpose.

Yes, that's all I said too, not sure why you need to repeat what I said. No disagreement between us here

Minister, if smart enough, can find his ways to refuse especially if the immigration status was dodgy and marriage occurred thereafter. Anyway all depends on the facts of the case. But ya, he has a harder time now

Oh, by the way, Gorry, was rejected in a subsequent case!!! (slightly different facts of cours)


You said
analysis does not need to be undertaken if the couple is not married (though of course Article 8 ECHR rights would still apply). I cannot see how on earth you could conclude that marriage would be irrelevant to OP's visa application, in light of this.

Sweet mother of Jesus, the concept of context is lost on you.

A couple don't need to marry if they want to stay here. If they've prove that they have cohabited together like husband and wife for two years, there are residency applications available. If they can't, marriage might be the appropriate angle

The martial status of the parents under the separate Zambrano matter is not important either, all that matters is the role of the parents in the childs life

I was not talking about visas and you know It. I was talking about residency applications!! Visas are what you apply for to enter a country. However, again, if you are a partner of an EU citizen, who comes to Ireland Then the visa application can't ask for the usual documents required by other (where Eu law doesn't apply) partners and cohabitants can apply. I assume for discrimination reasons and the fact that residency applications recognise non married couples, Irish immigration law would take a similar attitude for visa Applications


In relation to your comments on Scully

Scully does not say, you" can't apply under Zambrano". It says, as per Mccarthy and Zambrano, that in the majority of circumstances, Zambrano and EU law does not apply at all where it concerns adult Irish citizens who haven't yet exercised their Treaty rights.

The reasoning, there was no risk that the children had to leave Ireland or EU, as you pointed out. Zambrano is a limited case.

Yes the ECJ /CJEU did say, "it was a matter for the national courts" Ie it's not a matter for EU Law! It's a matter for Irish Immigration laws, subject to ECHR Article 8, which, itself is weak (depending on the facts of a particular case, that also gives some leeway to member states)

Correct it is not a blanket rule, but the specifics of the facts here, with this poster, there is NOTHING to suggest Zambrano, a limited case, will not apply here, if one of the parents are Irish and never exercised their rights. There is never going to be a risk of the child having to leave

As already stated (evidentially, you don't reads the posts in full) department of justice may and often do, consider the matter under the discretionary guidelines of Irish immigration law, having regard to the Constitution (when Zambrano does not apply)

Give 1 single example where Zambrano could and will apply so. Come on. You will be stuck to give an example!

Lt J.R. Bell

Dandelion6 wrote: »

Incidentally I have recently briefed two different barristers with particular expertise in EU immigration law in cases involving Irish citizen children with an Irish citizen parent. In both cases the barrister considers that EU law applies.

Without giving specifics, what are the facts /circumstances of the case?

How do they differ to the Mccarthy /Zambrano line of authority?

The statement that you made was pretty bare here.

Dandelion6

Lt J.R. Bell wrote: »

Nope, I said with the exception that I made,which you highlighted, what you said was nonsense.

What I said was that there were hypothetical situations where Zambrano would apply even though one parent was the same nationality as the child. You said that was utter nonsense, and then you gave an example of a hypothetical situation where Zambrano would apply.

Oh, by the way, Gorry, was rejected in a subsequent case!!! (slightly different facts of cours)

Cite please

The martial status of the parents under the separate Zambrano matter is not important either, all that matters is the role of the parents in the childs life

No, all that matters is whether the child would have to leave the EU. Parent could play a significant role in the child's life and could still be deported if the child was able to remain.

I was not talking about visas and you know It. I was talking about residency applications!! Visas are what you apply for to enter a country.

Do you actually practise in this area at all? If you are a visa-required national who is outside the country, the way you apply for residency is by applying for a long-stay visa. The family reunification guidelines are the same for both types of application. And OP has made it clear that her partner is outside the country, so a visa is what she is asking about, Mr "Stick to the facts of the op and not wonder off on a hypothetical and irrelevant scenario".

The reasoning, there was no risk that the children had to leave Ireland or EU, as you pointed out.

Yes, in the facts of the Scully case, there was no such risk. That is very different from saying that EU law doesn't apply to the children of Irish nationals even when there is such risk.

Yes the ECJ /CJEU did say, "it was a matter for the national courts" Ie it's not a matter for EU Law!

Sigh. It said whether deportation of the non-EU spouse would lead to the child being removed from the EU is a matter for the national courts. That's a question of fact to be determined in the circumstances of the case. If the answer is "yes", Zambrano applies - irrespective of the parents' nationality.

Give 1 single example where Zambrano could and will apply so. Come on. You will be stuck to give an example!

You already gave an example.

Dandelion6

Lt J.R. Bell wrote: »

Without giving specifics, what are the facts /circumstances of the case?

How do they differ to the Mccarthy /Zambrano line of authority?

They differ in the effect that a refusal is having or would have on the Irish citizen child, namely the child would in fact be prevented from living in Ireland.

Lt J.R. Bell

Dandelion6 wrote: »

They differ in the effect that a refusal is having or would have on the Irish citizen child, namely the child would in fact be prevented from living in Ireland.

How would the child be prevented from living in Ireland?

The Irish citizen is the father, and the non Eu is the mother?

The Irish Citizen has abandoned the other parent and citizen child?

Both parents not around?

Non Eu parent a stateless citizen /child would not be entitled to nationality of another country other than Ireland?

Irish citizen parent has responsibilities in Ireland such as other children from previous relationship whose other parent has family law rights to the second child?

How would an Irish could be at risk of being unable to live in Ireland if one of his parents are Irish citizens? Couldn't the citizen parent actual exercise treaty rights and pop up North or mainland UK and return later via Singh case?

Why is Irish Immigration law refusing to let the non Irish parent stay (thus indirectly forcing the Irish child to move too)

All you have said was, they "differ" ye, ya, but I asked how!

Lt J.R. Bell

Dandelion6 wrote: »

What I said was that there were hypothetical situations where Zambrano would apply even though one parent was the same nationality as the child. You said that was utter nonsense, and then you gave an example of a hypothetical situation where Zambrano would apply.



Cite please



No, all that matters is whether the child would have to leave the EU. Parent could play a significant role in the child's life and could still be deported if the child was able to remain.



Do you actually practise in this area at all? If you are a visa-required national who is outside the country, the way you apply for residency is by applying for a long-stay visa. The family reunification guidelines are the same for both types of application. And OP has made it clear that her partner is outside the country, so a visa is what she is asking about, Mr "Stick to the facts of the op and not wonder off on a hypothetical and irrelevant scenario".



Yes, in the facts of the Scully case, there was no such risk. That is very different from saying that EU law doesn't apply to the children of Irish nationals even when there is such risk.



Sigh. It said whether deportation of the non-EU spouse would lead to the child being removed from the EU is a matter for the national courts. That's a question of fact to be determined in the circumstances of the case. If the answer is "yes", Zambrano applies - irrespective of the parents' nationality.



You already gave an example.

November 2014 case of Khan, I should have said that is distinguishable, but did point out that its different on fact. There is actually a decision pending which reviews those cases

Visa Applications are made to enter the country, when they arrive, they apply for residency

In relation to the poster,all of my statements were made in the assumption that the visa, letting the non Eu person enter Ireland, would not be a problem. My comments concern the residency Application itself

Documents for visas, where it concerns family reunification of family members of eu citizens here under EU law, is LESS onerous than those applications concerning family members of Irish citizens. Proof of family connection and proof that EU person complies with Article 7 of Directive 2004/38 ec is all that's required. Later examples may require proof that you won't be a financial burden etc

Re Zambrano, sweet Jesus.Of course the question of whether the citizen child will have to leave EU is the first hurdle!! My statements were made on the assumption that that first hurdle was passed. Once passed, the parents don't have to be married, they just have to show that they play a role in the child's life in Ireland. Hence, marriage is irrelevant. If you are going to try and be pedantic, at least try and get the context of what was said

Re matter for the courts... Lol. Yes, National courts will look at it, realise that there is no risk that the child would have to leave the country of birth,never mind EU, and there's nothing breaching echr, it's unlikely ECJ will intervene. Nothing stopping Eu parent piping to another Eu country with non Eu parent and the child, and.actually enforcing EU law. Thus, child won't have to leave EU.

Of course, problem is tracker tricker if both parents are not EU citizen but then it falls on all four with Zambrano and nothing like the case of Irish Citizen parent. You examples that you talk of, are practicaly exceptional circumstance, rare

Dandelion6

Lt J.R. Bell wrote: »

November 2014 case of Khan, I should have said that is distinguishable, but did point out that its different on fact.

Don't see why you mentioned it at all, really. It certainly didn't reject Gorry. The different facts led to a different result but that result was reached by using the exact same Article 41 analysis that Mac Eochaidh did in Gorry.

Visa Applications are made to enter the country, when they arrive, they apply for residency

In relation to the poster,all of my statements were made in the assumption that the visa, letting the non Eu person enter Ireland, would not be a problem.

Why would you make that assumption? The visa application will not be approved unless the Minister is satisfied that the criteria are met for allowing the non-EU spouse to come live with the Irish spouse in Ireland. They are the exact same criteria that are used for residency applications where the non-EU spouse is already here. If the visa application succeeds then once the person arrives they will be given a Stamp 4, they don't have to go through a separate residency application.

You examples that you talk of, are practicaly exceptional circumstance, rare

And yet I have two cases of them in my own practice at the same time. Go figure.

onlythedon

Thank you everyone for your replies. It's reassuring to know that either way we seem to have a chance to live together as a family and possibly within six months. I do more questions. Is it ok to submit the application ourselves or do we need a solicitor?

As I have said already I am only back in the country and starting to get back on my feet. Given he is in a third world country it's difficult for him to save, and to also show that he is giving me money to support the child (he is at present doing this). I know I can save better here but the baby is due in July, so we aren't going to have an huge amount saved then, but can show that since we found out we have been saving (a small amount) regularly. I can also show I meet the 45,000 required for the last few years.

If we have to pay for a solicitor on top of this, I'm not sure where or how we are meant to come up with this money as well!!

Also if successful with the long stay visa, how long does it take for a work visa to be processed?

Lt J.R. Bell

onlythedon wrote: »

Thank you everyone for your replies. It's reassuring to know that either way we seem to have a chance to live together as a family and possibly within six months. I do more questions. Is it ok to submit the application ourselves or do we need a solicitor?

As I have said already I am only back in the country and starting to get back on my feet. Given he is in a third world country it's difficult for him to save, and to also show that he is giving me money to support the child (he is at present doing this). I know I can save better here but the baby is due in July, so we aren't going to have an huge amount saved then, but can show that since we found out we have been saving (a small amount) regularly. I can also show I meet the 45,000 required for the last few years.

If we have to pay for a solicitor on top of this, I'm not sure where or how we are meant to come up with this money as well!!

Also if successful with the long stay visa, how long does it take for a work visa to be processed?

Make sure that you keep a copy of ALL the documents that you sent ,in case the Dept get awkward

Whether its under EU Law (Zambrano) or Irish Immigration(application on basis of Irish Child and or Irish spouse/de facto partner), either way, the Department, especially during Shatter's time, took family reunification of Irish Citizens seriously and tried to bridge the gap experienced under previous regime where a German etc exercising their Treaty Rights had better protection than an Irish Citizen under EU law (they called it reverse discrimination)

Western Union Receipts may be a way to show money transfers? If ye are not married nor intend to marry for whatever reason, make sure that you get a declaration consenting to the father being a guardian (just get the form in the court house and sign in front of a solicitor)

THere is nothing stopping you from doing it yourself.Just keep copies of all documents that you send. All you are doing is stating facts , ie history of your relationship etc. If you are not comfortable at least talk to a solicitor

Regardless of the disagreements on the basis of status up above, its pedantic , since it would be surprising if you have problems getting the residency for the partner.

Dandelion6

onlythedon wrote: »

Also if successful with the long stay visa, how long does it take for a work visa to be processed?

He won't need a work visa if he is granted a long stay visa. When he arrives he will be given a Stamp 4 which will allow him to work immediately.

Have a look at the Family Reunification Guidelines on the INIS website. If you can demonstrate you meet all of them then there's not really anything more a solicitor can do for you.

Lt J.R. Bell

Dandelion6 wrote: »

And yet I have two cases of them in my own practice at the same time. Go figure.

How would the child be prevented from living in Ireland? (due to the parent(s) being unable to stay, even though one of the parents is Irish )

Out of interest, would the said cases fall into any of the following categories -


The Irish citizen is the father, and the non Eu is the mother?

The Irish Citizen has abandoned the Non EU parent and Irish citizen child?

Both parents not around?

Non Eu parent a stateless citizen /child would not be entitled to nationality of another country other than Ireland?

Irish citizen parent has responsibilities in Ireland such as other children from previous relationship whose other parent has family law rights to the second child? (or work/business commitments) Thus making it unreasonable to be expected to leave Ireland even to move to other EU States to stay united

How would an Irish could be at risk of being unable to live in Ireland if one of his parents are Irish citizens? Couldn't the citizen parent actual exercise treaty rights and pop up North or mainland UK and return later via Singh case?



All you have said was, they "differ" and how you have exceptional cases, ye, ya, but I asked how, any one of the above. If so, fair enough , that would explain , clearly why Zambrano could apply

onlythedon

Thank you so much for all your help and for taking the time to reply to me.

onlythedon

Just in case anyone else reads this tread. We applied for a holiday visit first. It was approved within four weeks.

onlythedon

Should anyone read this post, we applied for the long stay visa - parent of an Irish child. The visa was processed and approved in four months. I supplied all documentation as outlined on the website, the embassy processed the visa with no further information required from us. It was very straight forward.

Nancy88

Hi people,

Please can anyone kindly confirm the time frames of INIS processing time in the current years 2015,2016,2017 ???

Does anyone heard or know of a resent zambrano application where INIS grant someone who is stateless a permission to stay in Ireland. How long did the whole process take pls?